5th Edition Renaissance?

[fdw3773]

Over the past couple of years I have been updating characters and resources from earlier editions to 6th Edition while also picking up various 5th Edition publications in physical hard copy and digital format. After intermittent breaks in the editing and converting, I find myself drawn to simply updating older character versions to 5th Edition over 6th Edition...although I'm not really sure why.

 

Is it the artwork and layout? Possibly. Although close to a couple decades old, the exterior and interior artwork for the 5th Edition Hero System still hold up well compared to products published by other companies. The Book of Dragons remains one of my favorite sourcebooks, even though I haven't run a fantasy themed game in over a decade. By contrast, I wasn't a fan of the textbook approach to the 6th Edition Hero System rulebooks and while the Champions Complete cover was okay, the Fantasy Hero Complete cover remains a visual eyesore for me, especially when compared to the quality of the 6th Edition Fantasy Hero cover published as a sourcebook.

 

Is the nostalgic memories? Unlikely. I was introduced into Champions with 3rd Edition in the late 1980s, had 4th Edition (Big Blue Book) in the mid to late 1990s, ran a mix of Fantasy Hero and Champions my senior year in college (early to mid 1990s), and only played sparingly since then. It would not be until around 2016 or so when I ran Champions again at the local game conventions which used a mix of 4th, 5th, and 6th Edition characters.

 

Maybe it's just a "je ne sais quoi" sort of feeling, and was wondering if other people on this forum felt the same way regarding a previous edition that they are playing or using versus 6th Edition. In the meantime, I'm preparing my materials for a game convention that will hopefully occur in April 2022 (Pretzcon here in Omaha, NE), using Hero System 5th Edition as my own form of a 5th Edition Renaissance.

[Christopher R Taylor]

While my favorite edition of Hero is 4th, 5th edition has way more content and a broader range of support material than any other edition.  I think 6th has a lot of great ideas that I strongly encourage people adapt to their favorite version at the least, but 5th has a ton of stuff to work with.

[Duke Bushido]

4e was a support sweet spot for me, just because the books were coming out at a rate I could afford.  Considering the difference between what I earned then versus what I earn now, that seems to suggest a lack of support material, but honestly, given all the third-party support during 2-4 e and the genre supplements, etc, there was a _lot_ of material.

 

The machine gun rate of publication of 5e and 6e meant from the get go that I was getting the core rukes and one or two supplments that appealed to me, and frankly, I just did manage to do that.   I am willing to state that I am the only person ever to have been in this position, but I am nit willing to accept it as a fact.    

 

fortunately, ten years seems,to be the sweet spot for picking up game material on the second-hand market: most of it is still available and the prices tend to be as low as they will ever get.  Today, I think I have all the 5e stuff except whatever that "you gotta have character"esque book was.  For the purpose of full disclosure, I'm not actually looking for it, either.

 

I missed the Rescue at Karadonna thing for Star HERO, and out of all the material published for 5e, that was the thing I wanted (and still want) most.   I have none of the third party 5e stuff, but I browse about for it every now and again.  If I find it inexpensively enough, I buy it; if I don't, I try again in eight months or so.

 

as far as 6e, I have the blue books and Fantasy HERO and MHI.

 

After reading FH and realizing it was pretty much 5e FH rebooted, I lost almost all interest in getting the othe supplemental books (which, given the early rapid-fire release, was probably for the best anyway: way less frustration at not being able to pick it up when you realize it is probably a 5e book, reskinned.

 

I bought the PDF for the Ultimate Skill (or whatever it was called) for 5e and read that, which saved me the expense of hunting down a paper copy, because there wasnt anything there I found particularly helpful-- now that is _not_ to say it wasnt a good reference for someone newer to the game or not burdened with a surplus of creativity, there was just nothing there of any real value to me.  I wish I had sone the same thing with the pre-built powers books, and for exactly the same reasons.

 

 

As far as a favorite edition to _play_, I drag what few things I have personally felt to be improvements (most of them from 4e, if I stop to think about it) back to 2e.  That was my sweetspot for the tradeoff of simulation and playability.

 

 

[Spence]

I am a completionist and a collecta'holic so I have pretty much everything available in PDF and hard-copies of everything 3rd through 6th.  I have most of 1st and 2nd, but there are some holes I can't fill. 

 

For me I had the most fun with 4th, but have actually played more 5th, well...5thR hybrid .

 

While I can't really point at exactly the reason I never was able to enjoy 6th.  Too many game traits that I found very useful and comfortable were dropped.  I am not opening the great debate again, but one of the changes was the loss of figured stats.  That and other changes fundamentally changed the "feel" and "approach" of playing the game for me.  A change I could never get past. 

 

Objectively, there is very little difference in the play of various versions of the game.   Most of the differences in the versions aimed at the build rules, or at least the ones that stand out to me.

 

Right now I am concentrating on using 5thR.  I was able to load up on many 5th edition books including 6 copies each of the 5thR Character Creation Handbook,  Combat Handbook and the Resource Kit.  This means that we are not shackled to share one or two rules books during character creation or during play.   Of course I have recently located two like new 5thR core rulebooks bringing me up to 6 there too.  I only have 2 Sidekick Revised.  I'd like to find enough for a full set of 6, but not having any luck.

 

6 is my magic number.  I find my sweet spot for running a game is 3-5 players.  So 6 copies means everyone, including me, can have a book during play. 

 

I don't run a table if there are devices at it.  Through all the excuses all device means is that we will be continually wasting time because of distractions. From texting to typing "something important" into the laptop. 

[LoneWolf]

The thing with Hero system is that the game has not changed all that much throughout the editions. The majority of the changes were how much things cost and the way powers were purchased.  For the most part the stat blocks are fairly close to when the game first came out other than cost. You can probably take most of the 4th edition source books and use them without really converting them to the new editions.  

 

You could probably take the write up of a villain from a 4th edition Champions source book and use it straight out of the book.  While the cost may be different and you may need to adjust a few things they would be minor compared to what you need to do with any other game system.   Try using a 1st edition AD&D monster is a current edition of D&D or a Pathfinder game.  Most of the game terms have changed and even those that kept the same term were drastically changed.  

 

This is why I kept all my old Hero System source books and often still refer to them.  The Fantasy Hero books for 4th edition had a lot of ideas for spells that can still be used even in 6th edition rules.  Mostly when you convert it is changing the cost and maybe taking advantage of some of the new powers, advantages and limitations.  
 

[HeroGM]

3 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

You can probably take most of the 4th edition source books and use them without really converting them to the new editions.  

 

You could probably take the write up of a villain from a 4th edition Champions source book and use it straight out of the book.  While the cost may be different and you may need to adjust a few things they would be minor compared to what you need to do with any other game system.   Try using a 1st edition AD&D monster is a current edition of D&D or a Pathfinder game.  Most of the game terms have changed and even those that kept the same term were drastically changed.  

 

 

 

Talents and skills are the big thing between editions earlier than fourth. I've done Golden Age 4th for 6th with little changes. As for Fantasy/DnD, I use the 4th Ed conversion notes for anything pre 3.5.

[Spence]

6 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

You could probably take the write up of a villain from a 4th edition Champions source book and use it straight out of the book.

 

You can.  I have taken villains and such from various editions and used them in other edition games without taking time to "convert" them. 

[Ninja-Bear]

I’ve converted 4th Ed spells for 6th Ed. Transfer I think was the messiest to convert.

[Duke Bushido]

50 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I’ve converted 4th Ed spells for 6th Ed. Transfer I think was the messiest to convert.

 

 

I can believe that.

 

Frankly, I think it's easier just to import Transfer whole-cloth from any edition in which it existed as its own power.

 

[zslane]

My preferred edition is what I call 4e+. It is 4e with stuff cherry picked from 5eR.

[Christopher R Taylor]

If you want, you can build a talent-style 6th edition Transfer that is just bone stock: drain 1d6 from target to give that to you, and use that for most builds.  Its actually slightly cheaper than Old School Transform (although the active cost is 16 instead of 15).  Drain is automatically ranged in 6th edition, and Aid costs 6 points per d6

 

Drain Ability 1d6 (10 active points)

Aid Ability 1d6 (6 Active Points); Only to Aid Self (-1), Linked (Drain; -1/2), Only to equal exact amount Drained (-0)

[carmachu]

4th was the fun edition. The BBB was slot of fun, we played the heck out of it. for years and years til life got in the way.

 

Collected 5th and 6th. But when we go back its going back, it will be 4th with 5th and 6th rules mixed in. 6th might have cleaned up slot of rules, but it feels dry and lacks the fun factor 4th had.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree overall but I think that properly designed and written supplements and adventures for 6th can bring the fun back.  The presentation is too much toolkit and not enough game, but that can be solved with lots of game

[Spence]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I agree overall but I think that properly designed and written supplements and adventures for 6th can bring the fun back.  The presentation is too much toolkit and not enough game, but that can be solved with lots of game

 

In addition I would argue that Hero (any version) needs guidance/limits. 

Hero the game system gives the players and GM's unlimited ability to build stuff. 

To an RPG player from virtually any other system and any new to RPG beginners, unlimited options breaks the game for them.  There is a thing called option overload.

 

A set of guidelines or "rules" defining how things are bought and various limits would give the new player a definitive starting point.  A reference to base decisions on. 

Once they get the hang of it, then they can easily ignore them and build their own world. 

 

 

 

 

 

[fdw3773]

4 hours ago, zslane said:

My preferred edition is what I call 4e+. It is 4e with stuff cherry picked from 5eR.

What a similar coincidence...I play what I refer to as "Hero System 5.5" where I pull stuff from 6th Edition to 5th (e.g. Unified Power instead of Elemental Control). 🙂

[Duke Bushido]

I tend to refer to my concoction as 2e jet.

 

It hearkens back to a lot of Japanese fighting games in the late 80s and 90s.

 

 

[zslane]

2 hours ago, Spence said:

To an RPG player from virtually any other system and any new to RPG beginners, unlimited options breaks the game for them.

 

Agreed. That's why I typically recommend that total newcomers to TTRPGs start with something else, like D&D. That's how it went for me; I went from AD&D (1e) to Champions 2e and the transition was very smooth. I would not wish jumping straight into Champions 6e on my worst enemy.

[Christopher R Taylor]

That is what Champions Begins is, as a first stage.  I want a basic Champions Campaign book out there too, something people can grab and run your standard Bronze Age game with.  A base, some bad guys, some NPCs, a larger story arc, prepared character stories you can plug into most PC complications, and a series of related adventures and such for the GM to run a campaign with.  

 

Note, this works best if there are a lot of Champions adventures already out there to run, that can be referenced.

[zslane]

I found great joy in being liberated from the metaphorical prison of D&D's crude and limited game system and being let loose in the vastly more coherent and expansive world of the Champions game system. I would never have experienced that had I started with Champions as my first RPG, and I would not want to rob RPG newbies from that same exhilarating feeling. Plus, I feel that one gains a far greater appreciation for, and perhaps deeper understanding of, the Hero System if one has another game system to compare it to in the course of learning it. Besides, I think that D&D is a far easier sell to RPG newbies who are (probably) already familiar with that brand name; and then once they are hooked on RPGs one can then lure them into the superior game system.

[Christopher R Taylor]

The contrast isn't as great these days, though.  Its not random stats and AC any more, they've made it a lot more like Hero over the years (especially 3rd edition).

[Ninja-Bear]

6 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

The contrast isn't as great these days, though.  Its not random stats and AC any more, they've made it a lot more like Hero over the years (especially 3rd edition).

I’ve been pointing this out for awhile now on the boards. Many old timers keep referring to D&D many editions ago and things have changed since then.

[Ninja-Bear]

17 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I agree overall but I think that properly designed and written supplements and adventures for 6th can bring the fun back.  The presentation is too much toolkit and not enough game, but that can be solved with lots of game

I still say that there should be a 3rd Ed Emulator using 6th. Basically have a document that lists what was available for third and use those same campaign guidelines too (points should be adjusted though).  And the emulator should be presented as a starting point. 

[Ninja-Bear]

17 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I agree overall but I think that properly designed and written supplements and adventures for 6th can bring the fun back.  The presentation is too much toolkit and not enough game, but that can be solved with lots of game

I can’t write a scenario to save my soul. However I have a bunch a non complicated Heroes and villains.  If you want some let me know. I’ll polish them to you CB standards. 

[Duke Bushido]

9 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

 Many old timers keep referring to D&D many editions ago and things have changed since then.

 

 

I'm not saying you"re wrong, but it's like Brussels sprouts:

 

I have had them before, several times, and I remember each contemptable  experience quite clearly and distinctly- most specifically the one where, as the young lady I had just started dating had gone to a great deal of trouble to prepare an otherwise amazing meal, I pretended to be absolutely enthralled with them-- right up until I jumped up, raced to her balcony, and copiously and embarrassingly noisily vomited onto her car, four stories below.

 

You can't get me to try Brussels sprouts again; you just can't.  And even if you did- even if someone had found a way to make them absolutely _edible_, I am not going to key on why: I am going to notice above all else are those things which are most similar to the Brussels sprouts with which I am far too familiar. 

 

it's a leftover survival trait that is being horribly misapplied now that have created a functioning society, but ultimately, it's just the way people are typically built.

[Ninja-Bear]

@Duke Bushido the point is D&D now isn’t the Brussels sprouts (which I don’t care for either) that you fondly remember.  D&D is more because the editions have changed is like you talking about canned tuna and I’m talking about fresh Tuna or canned corned beef versus brisket of corned beef. Each food is in theory the same but really tastes different. So before I would make a broad statement that D&D is this or that and Hero System can do this or that that D&D can’t, I would find out what edition and then go from there.