5th Edition Renaissance?

[Scott Ruggels]

9 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Oh and about skills bloat. Shouldn’t we blame games like Fantasy Hero and Danger International? I mean it was the the Heroic level games that introduced all those skills! 😁

Oh, we can blame those. However they do fit for D.I. and F.H. I think it was the Amalgamation into Champions that was possibly the problem. Too much Realism into the Superhero Genre? Maybe?

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think Barrier works, but its not very intuitive and I don't think it actually is a superior answer to Force Wall and Entangle doing the same thing.

[Duke Bushido]

6 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Oh and about skills bloat. Shouldn’t we blame games like Fantasy Hero and Danger International? I mean it was the the Heroic level games that introduced all those skills! 😁

 

 

No.

 

Those games,were stand-alone games, and that was how those games worked.  There was no bloat because there was no "way we did it before."  Of course, there would be no "way we do it this time" because there was no new "this time:"  HERO Games consolidated everything into Champions--  okay. Sorry:  4e.  

 

4e had lqrge grqnd overskills and much mire specialized smaller skills _and_ had the template for making your own skills (and some awkwardness about how they would differ if they were background ir professional or youTube hobbies or whatever).

 

What it did _not_ have was any sort of useful guidance on the differences of effect and requirement skikls had based on hiw broad you wanted them, any suggestions about when to specify or why you might want or not want to, and on and on-

 

So personally, as much fun as it was, I blame 4e for not taking the time to include at least a short discussion on this- or even doing so in any of the genre books, where specificity is one of the keys to the feel of the game.  At any rate, I feel 4e started this tradition--

 

A proud tradition that carries on even into today"s thousand-plus pages of rules- rules that specify even exactly how each individual power modifier must interact with each power, each other, and modified powers; rules upon rules for corner cases and mandates and power constructs to replace modified powers and modified powers to replace power constructs and guidelines for rolling your own there,too.  We,even have rules that can replace other rules in the same set of rules!

 

But to this day we don't have any discussion of the value or ramifications of the proudly-open-ended skill system. 

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

@Duke Bushido, iirc 4th merged into one system Champions and all those Heroic games (I.e. skills). So yes it’s Heroic Rules. 😜

[Spence]

16 hours ago, Mr. R said:

 

Maybe I am sheltered, and I don't mean to diverge the thread, BUT, what are you talking about?  I am serious, am I missing something happening in DnDlandia?

I don't want to set off a fire storm, I guess I shouldn't have made the comment because the Hero boards have been pleasantly clear if it. 

 

I'll PM you details that you can ignore 😉

[Duke Bushido]

6 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

@Duke Bushido, iirc 4th merged into one system Champions and all those Heroic games (I.e. skills). So yes it’s Heroic Rules. 😜

 

Agreed.

 

But how would you have any understanding of that if you hadn't played those individual games before they were merged into one game? 

 

For what it is worth, I _like_ specialization in Heroic games, as it gives players the chance to make their character carve himself a unique niche and minimizes overlap between characters.  I also like that it gives somewhere practical to spend those XPs, as they certainly aren't going to buy sixt points of STR or an extra thirty points of BODY or work their way up an 8 SPD.  So skill specialization works in Heroic games- frankly, if you are going to have a long-running game,  there is a good argument that it is _necessary_ in that sort of game.  That is certsonky the only place you found it during 3e HERO Games.

 

When they pushed it all into one system in 4e-  and dont get me wrong: it was a great idea, overall, as it let them take everything they had learned and give it an overall coherence.   But they left Skills both wide and narrow, then gave rules for making new skills but no actual guideline for them beyond picking a category of skill.

 

That was the first time both tight skills and broad skills appeared in the same book, and there was no real discussion of the difference between them, or even if they ahould both be allowed in the same game.   I can speak from experience that this was a populat thing for certain players to try to exploit, shoehoring everything they could into a single,skill, even if they had to back up so far to see the whole thing that they'd be in orbit.

 

The genre books- arguably _the_ source for genre-specific advice about the particular heroic game you had in mind- also failed to even acknowledge skill specialization (or lack there of), in spite of the fact that all of them had lengthy sections of advice for setting the particular tone for your game.  That, at least to me, is a great place to discuss what is essentially a mechanic whose importance varies specifically with the tone of the game, but again, I admit that is just my opinion.

[Mr. R]

2 hours ago, Spence said:

I don't want to set off a fire storm, I guess I shouldn't have made the comment because the Hero boards have been pleasantly clear if it. 

 

I'll PM you details that you can ignore 😉

Thank you.  We can now go back to our regular discussion!  This tangent is closed!

[zslane]

56 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

there was no real discussion of the difference between them, or even if they ahould both be allowed in the same game.

 

Despite any ambitions to appeal to complete newbies, the unspoken assumption by 4e was that 99% of its users would be existing Champions players who already understood the system well. That audience was expected to be able to grasp (or find on their own) a working distinction between skill tiers, and decide on their own how to use them (if at all) in their campaigns.

[Scott Ruggels]

1 hour ago, zslane said:

 

Despite any ambitions to appeal to complete newbies, the unspoken assumption by 4e was that 99% of its users would be existing Champions players who already understood the system well. That audience was expected to be able to grasp (or find on their own) a working distinction between skill tiers, and decide on their own how to use them (if at all) in their campaigns.

 

I would say that this is accurate, as at the time Champions was  a large percentage of the games being run at Gencon through the 90's. It was ubiquitous at the time. BBBs were in tall stacks at the Hero booth that sold out over those weekends, and there was "The Hero Auxiliary", running the organized convention games at Gencon.  Those were the days.

[rravenwood]

Duke, I apologize up-front if I've misinterpreted any of your statements about the lack of what I'll call "toolboxing" for Skills in 6E, and I also want to state that I'm largely in agreement about the "skill bloat" seen particularly in Superheroic games.  That said, I do want to point out that 6E does discuss - at least a little - how to change Skills to make them better fit a particular game's needs:

• 6E1 p54: Toolkitting: Skill Combinations (take several skills and lump them together into one umbrella skill)
• 6E2 pp300-301: Creating New Skills
• 6E Hero System Skills pp6-10: Pretty much the whole "Buying Skills" section (discusses eliminating skill sub-categories, further sub-dividing skills, more depth on the 6E1 "Skill Combinations" idea, etc.)

Don't get me wrong: I'm not setting myself up to die on the hill of "there's just so much guidance and it's all presented in an up-front-and-easy-to-find-manner" - but while it may not be perfect, a discussion of alternatives IS there.

[Duke Bushido]

Ah;  Sorry-  more specifically:

 

What changes in game and build,parameters when selecting one over the other.  What allowances should be made to character creation costs and budgeting if you pick one method over the other.  How selecting the structure od your skills affects the feel,and playability of the game; what are upside / downside of choosing one over the other, (and again, given the genre book format, I would be happy to see many these in genre books as "we have chosen this sort of skill structure as it helps to convey X about the setting, etc) and perhaps most importantly, why should or shouldnt I do both?  Let one guy have six skills related to electrical,engineering and,one guy have "genius gadget inventor?"

 

And like you, it is not some,sort,of,battle I want to,fight over, but it seems glaringly,absence in a rules,set with "when a power with advantage x meets a power with advantage Y, then this situation means Z."

 

 

[rravenwood]

Okay, I get where you're coming from - and I don't disagree.  More guidance for using the tools in the toolbox would always be good, with true examples of why decisions could be made and what the impacts would be.  Many people have pointed out that some sort of practical, hands-on, with lots of actual, detailed examples, GM's guide for using HERO to make a setting and using all those dials and switches would be awesome.  Just saying "yup, there are some options" isn't enough in and of itself.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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What changes in game and build,parameters when selecting one over the other.  What allowances should be made to character creation costs and budgeting if you pick one method over the other.  How selecting the structure od your skills affects the feel,and playability of the game; what are upside / downside of choosing one over the other

 

To help me understand what you are thinking here could you give an example, showing how you would like to see this done?

[Stirling.N]

To return to the original topic -

 

There are advantages and disadvantage the 5e and 6e but I am firmly in the camp of 5e with one caveat. The STR bug has been a problem from the beginning, but it reach a head in 5e for a variety of reasons. My approach has been the use EGO and BODY for some figured stats and to increase the points. I am running a multi-GM campaign to see if this avenue works. It looks promising. 

[Spence]

47 minutes ago, Stirling.N said:

To return to the original topic -

 

There are advantages and disadvantage the 5e and 6e but I am firmly in the camp of 5e with one caveat. The STR bug has been a problem from the beginning, but it reach a head in 5e for a variety of reasons. My approach has been the use EGO and BODY for some figured stats and to increase the points. I am running a multi-GM campaign to see if this avenue works. It looks promising. 

 

I know I am going to regret this. 

 

I searched the forums and the only mentions of the term were here and a thread you started, and in that thread the term wasn't actually defined.  Though a quick skim indicates you have added a lot of additional complication to "solve" it.

 

<sigh>  OK.

Since I have no idea what you are talking about

 

Please define "STR bug".

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

As I understand it, the problem with STR (the "bug") is that you used to get PD, STN, and REC plus damage, throwing distance, lifting, and other strength components for 1 point per STR.  Its still a bit too much, but better balanced in 6th.

[Scott Ruggels]

The STR bug was the only way to easily bdimulate Silver Age, car tossing heroes and villains and still be unber 250 points. It also kept all the defenses in line. To me it’s not a big but a feature. 

[Ninja-Bear]

6 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

The STR bug was the only way to easily bdimulate Silver Age, car tossing heroes and villains and still be unber 250 points. It also kept all the defenses in line. To me it’s not a big but a feature. 

But that’s exactly the problem though? It’s fine as is in the context of Silver Age but then Champions became Hero System and was usable for all different powers levels. And as long as you accepted typical Normal Human hero being x4 Stronger than normal person it’s fine.  Actually the easiest fix probably would’ve been to make official STR = 2pts for Heroic Level back in the day. I know unofficially I heard that that was used. Or how confusing would’ve it been to have a different Lifting chart for Heroic level characters? I know I wasn’t the only one that the lifting chart bothered for especially normals. A horse and a human have the same STR?

[Grailknight]

It's an imbalance in the system that did simulate a trope of the superhero genre. That being that high STR characters are inherently tougher than those who rely on other powers.

 

10 Points spent on STR(or CON) gave back 11 Points  in value spread across PD, REC and STUN(or ED, REC, END and STUN in the case of CON) so rather than directly purchasing these characteristics, you'd buy enough STR or Con to reach your target value.. Everyone needed CON but concepts with high STR tended to have much more STUN and REC.

 

As as Ninja-Bear states this worked fine in the context of Supers. But there are issues when we are speaking of Heroic genre games. The system is universal but there should be slight adjustments to better fit some games.  These adjustments are best done on the campaign level so that everyone knows all the differences from RAW for that campaign at character creation. House rules are fine, but they need to be known from the start and special one-offs that come up are easier to deal with.

[Spence]

OK, thanks all.

 

That explains it.

[carmachu]

On 1/17/2022 at 3:00 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

I agree overall but I think that properly designed and written supplements and adventures for 6th can bring the fun back.  The presentation is too much toolkit and not enough game, but that can be solved with lots of game

 You are asking a lot of heavy lifting from supplements and adventures. And where are these going to come from?

 

the BBB read like fun, 6th reads like a textbook. And I’m not trying to start edition war, 6th cleans up a few things( other things cleaned up I don’t care for)

[Chris Goodwin]

Almost all, if not all, of the Skills that are in 4th, 5th and 6th editions existed in 3rd edition.  I know this for a fact because I compiled a spreadsheet about it.  Granted, they existed across multiple books, but in the games I was in back then, we assumed that any skills that were appropriate to the setting would be available in whichever game we were playing.  One major exception to that was Martial Arts in Fantasy Hero; we didn't seem to want to go there except in the Bushido Hero game.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

You are asking a lot of heavy lifting from supplements and adventures. And where are these going to come from?

 

Guys like me and others here.  Every couple weeks another book lands on Drive Thru RPG with npcs, settings, adventures, etc.  More is on the way.

[Stirling.N]

Quote

As I understand it, the problem with STR (the "bug") is that you used to get PD, STN, and REC plus damage, throwing distance, lifting, and other strength components for 1 point per STR.

 

 

 

The main problem with the STR bug is not the heroes which STR is their primary attribute but the characters who buy up several of the same stats and find out that STR comes free. The martial artist with a 40 STR etc. In Champions up to 3rd edition, the balance was usually done by limiting EGO, relying on rend on STR (1 equal 5 not 10) and MA to do the rest. 5e made this non-viable. 6e took the system in another direction (which many people like). A fix for the STR bug is more like a "5.5e."

 

 

[assault]

The cost of STR was established in 1e Champions, of course. The maths held up until 4e.

Ignoring Killing Attacks, there were three major attack abilities: STR, Energy Blast and Martial Arts. A characteristic, a power and a skill.

Each had benefits. They didn't quite balance, but they were pretty close.

STR, of course, gave figured characteristics. Also, with the right object at hand, a limited ranged attack through throwing.

EB was ranged, and could be directed against Energy Defense instead of Physical Defense.

Martial Arts didn't cost Endurance, gave bonuses to Combat Value, and included maneuvers not available to other characters. It could also be combined with STR within certain limits, gaining its benefits too.

4e blew up that balance by establishing fixed price Martial Arts. It became possible for high-STR characters to add a little bit of MA on top of their STR, instead of having to make a serious investment.

Yes, that made it easier to model certain characters - but at the expense of balance.