5th Edition Renaissance?

[Lord Liaden]

17 minutes ago, assault said:

Tolkien's Elves didn't have particularly strong roots in folklore/myth. Few previous representations had them as such physical beings.

 

By themselves they were just ordinary folks, in a mythological kind of way. They only appeared superior when they were compared to humans.

 

Even then they were just gosh-wow forces of nature - until you get Legolas. He's the Mary Sue.

 

And then you get all the RPG players. . 

 

The movies made Legolas a "Mary Sue," or more the "Pro from Dover." In the books he has some exceptional and non-human qualities, but he isn't the combat monster that Peter Jackson made him. I think Jackson wanted to underline that Tolkien's Elves are a Big Deal, in a way that movie audiences can more tangibly relate to than how the books present them.

 

Elves have pretty strong representation in the folklore of Europe and the Middle East, whether it's Norse Alfar, Celtic Fae, or Persian Peris. But those elves are generally perilous for mortals to deal with. Even the more benevolent ones are mercurial, and can help or harm on a whim. It served Tolkien's dramatic purpose to present his Elves as good and wise to a breadth and depth beyond most Men.

[Lord Liaden]

7 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

Duke's opinion might differ from mine, but for me it's not just elves.  It's the D&Dish, Tolkienesque combo, and the notion that fantasy has to include them -- or even diverse races -- or it's not fantasy.  

 

Why?  Why does fantasy have to lick D&D's or Tolkien's boots?  

 

I think the Mary Sue comment (which I've made myself) comes from Tolkien's near worship of them.  They were taller, more beautiful, longer lived, and just plain better than humans -- never mind hobbits!  

 

I sort of imagine that when a new fantasy game or setting comes out that there's a significant percentage of the fanbase whose immediate first reaction is: what are their elves like?

 

There is no reason why the fantasy genre has to lick anyone's boots, other than cultural expectations built up over time. Kind of like why we expect superheroes to wear colorful costumes and use catchy code-names -- it's what most of them have always done, and what we're used to. Tolkien's and D&D's popularity have made their elements part of the cultural zeitgeist, so there'll always be people who want and expect them.

 

For Tolkien's Elves in particular, there's no doubt he created them out of love for their concept. These are the firstborn Children of Iluvatar, and some of them studied and played at the feet of the gods. But you also should remember that the era of the War of the Ring was the final chapter in their very ancient story. In the youth of the world, described in The Silmarillion, Elves could be as selfish, greedy, wrathful, cruel as any Men. But those still lingering in Middle Earth in the Third Age had endured millennia of suffering, failure, and loss, much of it of their own making. Their wisdom and nobility was hard-earned, at a great price. And it's led to weariness with the world and the desire to be done with fighting battles that never seem to end.

 

Now, as to multiple non-human races generally, I agree that strictly speaking, they aren't necessary to fantasy. But folklore around the world has populated it with all manner of creatures, spirits, gods, demons, ghosts, talking animals, sapient plants, hidden folk in wood and water and earth... it's a near-universal human instinct to want our world to be filled with such wondrous things. There's various explanations as to why we do that, but most people don't think about the why. Many people -- not all, but many -- just know that they want their fantasy to include things other than and different from themselves, that don't exist in reality.

[Scott Ruggels]

42 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

So we don't use the "dodgy" parts, or modify anything that we do want to use. We're discussing a more tightly-focused, "starter" campaign setting, deliberately not including everything right away.

 

Exactly.

Besides Australia doesn't exist, right?

[Scott Ruggels]

According to my players, I had just replaced Elves with Large, long lived, warlike Therapods with swords.  They wern't really as they had their flaws, but they were long lived and tactically clever within their limits, and could take a lot of damage.  I did have Elves in the campaign but they were avoided as they were so Alien. 

[Lord Liaden]

9 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

Exactly.

Besides Australia doesn't exist, right?

 

I personally have suggested in posts here, several routes, well-precedented in the official Champions setting, to goose the supers population and activity in Australia. It's been over a decade since the last published update to doings on that continent. All manner of events could have flowered in that time.

[assault]

Yes, but the racist characters need to be dropped behind the sofa.

 

I'm particularly thinking about Walkabout.

[Lord Liaden]

Other than his name (which is easy enough to change), what else about Walkabout do you consider racist?

[assault]

Read his write-up in Champions Worldwide and translate it into a First Nations character.

[assault]

3 hours ago, assault said:

Or more fringe still - the west of Scotland might work. Notionally part of the civilized Medieval world, but still carrying on like a bunch of Vikings.

 

After some Googling, I'm liking this more and more.

 

Even the Church was pure Swords and Sorcery then. Sure, there was a Bishop, but was he recognised? There could easily be more than one claimant, and then things get funky.

 

Interestingly, the movie "Dragonslayer" (which I've never seen) had a licensed board game, and the map was based on the Isle of Skye.

 

You can get your fancy armour if you go to Edinburgh or Dublin.

[Lord Liaden]

58 minutes ago, assault said:

Read his write-up in Champions Worldwide and translate it into a First Nations character.

 

Well, our Canadian First Nations people still maintain tribal identities. Many of them still practice their ancestral spiritual traditions. Those traditions may take on a heightened nature in a world where their gods and spirits and magic are unquestionably real and present. In Marvel Comics the hero Shaman, of Alpha Flight, is a First Nations mystic. So is Ravenspeaker, who's written up in Champions of the North. The American hero Tomahawk, a member of the renowned Justice Squadron hero team, has an origin similar to Walkabout's in some respects. (He's in Champions Universe: News Of The World.)

 

Do the aboriginal peoples of Australia not define themselves as belonging to tribes today? Have they left their ancestral practices behind?

[Lord Liaden]

1 hour ago, assault said:

 

After some Googling, I'm liking this more and more.

 

Even the Church was pure Swords and Sorcery then. Sure, there was a Bishop, but was he recognised? There could easily be more than one claimant, and then things get funky.

 

Interestingly, the movie "Dragonslayer" (which I've never seen) had a licensed board game, and the map was based on the Isle of Skye.

 

You can get your fancy armour if you go to Edinburgh or Dublin.

 

Another possibility might be Ireland in the Tenth Century, when it was divided into scores of rival petty kingdoms, and subject to repeated invasion by Scandinavian Vikings. This would be before the rise of Brian Boru to High King of Ireland, although a campaign could eventually lead to aiding, or even resisting, his unifying the island. Battling Vikings would also be a recurring issue. And you could draw on all that luscious Celtic source material from Tuala Morn.

[assault]

I'm on difficult ground here, because I don't actually know that much about Canadian First Nations people. But imagine someone from Newfoundland learning magic from British Columbia and becoming the defender of Alberta.

 

Because all First Nations people are the same, aren't they?

 

9 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Another possibility might be Ireland in the Tenth Century, when it was divided into scores of rival petty kingdoms, and subject to repeated invasion by Scandinavian Vikings. This would be before the rise of Brian Boru to High King of Ireland, although a campaign could eventually lead to aiding, or even resisting, his unifying the island. Battling Vikings would also be a recurring issue. And you could draw on all that luscious Celtic source material from Tuala Morn.

 

Of course you could always go with the twelfth century and fight the Normans and Welsh.

[Lord Liaden]

32 minutes ago, assault said:

I'm on difficult ground here, because I don't actually know that much about Canadian First Nations people. But imagine someone from Newfoundland learning magic from British Columbia and becoming the defender of Alberta.

 

Because all First Nations people are the same, aren't they?

 

Ah, so the tribes and locations and magical practices are jumbled, then?

 

I can see why that would be problematic. Still, it should be possible to render them consistent with more research.

[assault]

14 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Ah, so the tribes and locations and magical practices are jumbled, then?

 

I can see why that would be problematic. Still, it should be possible to render them consistent with more research.

 

You could, but leaving it alone would be better.

 

Frankly, I think bringing Seeker back would cause less drama.

 

Wait, nobody asked that question, did they?

 

[SCUBA Hero]

5 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

So, then we are agreed that we should put  out thin adventure books around a loosely defined campaign background that Hero Already owns, and that is after a highly edited version of Champions Complete? so as to fill in things in small, easily digestible chunks over time? This seems plausibly achievable. Anything else? Am I missing anything?

 

After further consideration, I'm not sure that a new version of Champions Complete is a good idea... the store shows 29 physical copies left in stock (is this something that can feasibly be re-printed?)  I'm going back and re-reading it; if a new, edited version were made, what would be the major differences?

 

As for the rest of it; yes, I'm thinking a new city (possibly the one Mark Rand is considering) with explanation of where all the levers are set (a playable game, rather than a toolkit) and ready-to-play scenario or two, with enough to transition into a longer-term campaign.  Then thin adventure books.

[SCUBA Hero]

As far as Walkabout, do we have any Australian Herophiles?  They could probably come up with good write-ups and backstories.

 

Paraphrased from seanbaby.com re: Apache Chief of the Superfriends: Now that I mention it, I don't think he was Apache or a chief.  His name doesn't make any sense.  That's like putting a Caucasian on a team of Native Americans and naming him 'Minnesota President'.  'Hey, I'm not from Minnesota, guys.  I'm a plumber from Texas.  I'm not President, either.' 'Shut up, you're Minnesota President!'

 

[assault]

8 minutes ago, SCUBA Hero said:

As far as Walkabout, do we have any Australian Herophiles? 

 

Obviously not.

[Scott Ruggels]

4 hours ago, SCUBA Hero said:

 

After further consideration, I'm not sure that a new version of Champions Complete is a good idea... the store shows 29 physical copies left in stock (is this something that can feasibly be re-printed?)  I'm going back and re-reading it; if a new, edited version were made, what would be the major differences?

 

As for the rest of it; yes, I'm thinking a new city (possibly the one Mark Rand is considering) with explanation of where all the levers are set (a playable game, rather than a toolkit) and ready-to-play scenario or two, with enough to transition into a longer-term campaign.  Then thin adventure books.

That sounds about right. Excellent idea. So what would a “set version “ of Champions 6th look like? No toolkit, one book? I am sure sections of text from Champions Complete could be used if permitted to reduce the work load. 

[Duke Bushido]

18 hours ago, assault said:

 

 

More generally, over writing "canon" would have to be a thing.

 

I promise that I hope this will be last time I reference Traveller in this thread; I had originally done it only to make it clear that I wasnt picking on any one company or setting.  I hadn't intended to keep it rolling on and on.

 

But there is something in Travellrr cannon that is quite unique amongst RPGs:

 

The official rule for cannon is that if there are two version of a thong, the newest is cannon, making re-writes and fixes much easier.

 

 

18 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

Duke's opinion might differ from mine, but for me it's not just elves.  It's the D&Dish, Tolkienesque combo, and the notion that fantasy has to include them -- or even diverse races -- or it's not fantasy.  

 

Yep.  That, and actual science.  There are bridges, multi-story stone buildings, capstans, sailing vessels-

 

but no one studying the science that made it possible.  To be fair, D and D has gotten better about this since the Steampunk craze, but even then, there are mad and crazed inventors, but not organized science.

 

 

18 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

I think the Mary Sue comment (which I've made myself)

 

 

 

Thanks, Chris. If I am going to hild an unpopular opinion, at least I am in excellent company.   

 

 

 

18 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 Tolkien's near worship of them.  They were taller, more beautiful, longer lived, and just plain better than humans

 

Yep.

 

Exactly like humans, but better in every possible way....

 

 

 

18 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

I sort of imagine that when a new fantasy game or setting comes out that there's a significant percentage of the fanbase whose immediate first reaction is: what are their elves like?

 

 

Cam confirm.

 

In my early group, it was a guy with the initials JW.

 

He sulked for a week when we agreed to try Talislanta.  When he finally decided to give it a shot, he demanded we make elves.  "It sould be pretty easy.  Just take your stats and add four to everything."

 

 

Nope.

[Scott Ruggels]

It will take a very compelling IP to knock Tolkien off his pedestal. Game of Thrones almost did it, as they had a fairly popular RPG for a while, and then the disastrous 8th season killed any further interest in it and it vanished. You just need and IP without Elves, that is popular.   On the other hand, they seem to be adding several waves of furries to 5e. Could that be worse?  

[Mark Rand]

Coastal City, from the 3E book Atlas Unleashed, has a bay, a harbor (which may or may not be the same thing), a swank hotel, a power company, an overcrowded freeway system, a fine arts museum, a USAF base outside the city, a factory-lined channel (which may now be light industry or open-air mall on former factory site), and a nearby NASA telemetry station.

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Scott Ruggels said:

, they seem to be adding several waves of furries to 5e.

 

Halelujah!  I thought it was just me thinking that.   Thanks, Scott.  I really needed that confirmation.

 

 

1 hour ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

Could that be worse?  

 

 

I ain't messin' with the furries, Dude: I still need my internet.

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Giving the exact answer to the asked question is, as far as I understand, just about as on-topic to the discussion as it is possible to be.

 

Well, the problem is you didn't answer why you dislike elves.  You answered why you dislike the kind of elves you have encountered in games in the past or were sick and tired of in the LOTR films.

 

Its like asking "why don't you like apples" then getting an answer about how bad rotten apples are: well sure, they're rotten.  But that doesn't make apples in and of themselves miserable and distasteful.

 

I don't like what Legolas was turned into in the films either, he was kind of cool in the first film, but no more stand out than anyone else, then he was surfing on a shield and it went downhill terribly from there.  Nobody like that kind of thing.  But that's not elves that are the problem its trying to make Legolas into a super-character.

 

Quote

I sort of imagine that when a new fantasy game or setting comes out that there's a significant percentage of the fanbase whose immediate first reaction is: what are their elves like?

 

See, this is the key approach.  This is how to go about it: what kind of elves?  Tunnels and Trolls had little green elves that had minor abilties.  Skyim has like 6 types of elves (including orcs) whose special abilities are no more outstanding than any other races.  Hell, AD&D had a couple kinds of elves who were slightly more agile and could see in the dark, but had some poorer stats and couldn't level up as high in some areas (plus an xp penalty?  If I recall).  You can make them interesting, compelling, and curious without having to make them super powerful mary sues.

 

Quote

So, then we are agreed that we should put  out thin adventure books around a loosely defined campaign background that Hero Already owns, and that is after a highly edited version of Champions Complete?

 

OK I'm going to go on record again here as being extremely, almost violently opposed to putting out YET ANOTHER VERSION OF CHAMPIONS.  Let's say you have never played Champions before.  Let's say you go online to buy a book and see what the game is like.  You pull up Champions, and what you do you see?  Well, aside from 5 previous versions, three of which aren't really even labeled as versions, you get to the latest edition: 6th.  Cool!  What do I get?

 

Hero System 1 and 2?

Champions?

Champions Complete?

Champions Now?

Champions The New Book We Just Put out Honest, This is the Book Guys?

 

Good lord, Imagine D&D taking this approach.  Well You can get Player's Handbook, or Player's Guide, or Player's Folio, or the D&D Player File, or...

 

You cannot do this with a product, you cannot glut the market with confusing and self-competing copies of the same ruleset.

[Chris Goodwin]

It occurs to me that there's a discussion about Why Some Of Us Hate Elves in a topic on the Champions board called "5th edition renaissance".  I'm going to start a more appropriate topic on the Fantasy Hero board, and will link to it when I've done so.  

 

Edit:  Appropriately titled, "What are the elves like?"

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah so having dragged this discussion way off track so badly Chris had to rescue it, lets get back on topic:

 

 

How do we define and deliniate the power levels for adventures so that we can define various adventure standards to build toward?  To the best of my knowledge, all previous Champions adventures built have been targeted around roughly 250-300 points and 60 active points.  To me, that's the sweet spot of beginning superheroes.  But we need specific, agreed-upon shared standards of power levels so that a GM can pick up a book and go "perfect for my game".