5th Edition Renaissance?

[SCUBA Hero]

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

OK I'm going to go on record again here as being extremely, almost violently opposed to putting out YET ANOTHER VERSION OF CHAMPIONS.  Let's say you have never played Champions before.  Let's say you go online to buy a gook and see what the game is like.  You pull up Champions, and what you do you see?  Well, aside from 5 previous versions, three of which aren't really even labeled as versions, you get to the latest edition: 6th.  Cool!  What do I get?

 

Hero System 1 and 2?

Champions?

Champions Complete?

Champions Now?

Champions The New Book We Just Put out Honest, This is the Book Guys?

 

Good lord, Imagine D&D taking this approach.  Well You can get Player's Handbook, or Player's Guide, or Player's Folio, or the D&D Player File, or...

 

You cannot do this with a product, you cannot glut the market with confusing and self-competing copies of the same ruleset.

 

I'm not extremely opposed to the idea, but the more I ponder it the more I think it won't bring in new players (which is the goal).  You can explain it in D&D terms - "Champions Complete is the PHB and DMG, ###Insert Cool Title Here### is the campaign setting (i.e., Greyhawk) combined with the MM.  I mean, how much different would printing the ruleset in a one-book-is-all-you-need-to-play be from what Champions Complete already is?

 

I have one caveat to that, however.  Champions Complete *must* be available in print, or at least print-on-demand.  (Or am I just an old grognard out of touch with today's younger gamers - do they want print books now, or is pdf okay?  I will say this; I can go to my FLGS and find a shelf of D&D books... but no HERO System books.)

 

In SJG's Report to the Stakeholders for 2021, it mentions GURPS On Demand - over 100 titles available as print-on-demand softcover books, using Amazon's print-on-demand tools.  That looks like an avenue to consider.

[Chris Goodwin]

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

K I'm going to go on record again here as being extremely, almost violently opposed to putting out YET ANOTHER VERSION OF CHAMPIONS.  Let's say you have never played Champions before.  Let's say you go online to buy a book and see what the game is like.  You pull up Champions, and what you do you see?  Well, aside from 5 previous versions, three of which aren't really even labeled as versions, you get to the latest edition: 6th.  Cool!  What do I get?

 

Hero System 1 and 2?

Champions?

Champions Complete?

Champions Now?

Champions The New Book We Just Put out Honest, This is the Book Guys?

 

Good lord, Imagine D&D taking this approach.  Well You can get Player's Handbook, or Player's Guide, or Player's Folio, or the D&D Player File, or...

 

Player's Handbook, Unearthed Arcana, Player's Handbook II, Dungeoneer's Survival Guide, Wilderness Survival Guide... 

 

Monster Manual, Fiend Folio, Monster Manual II, Creature Compendium...

 

Volo's Guide to Monsters, Xanathar's Guide to Everything, Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, Fizban's Treasury of Dragons... 

 

[Duke Bushido]

I'm not entirely sure where we got the idea that we needed a new rules book; I think I had mentioned before that CC would serve well enough.  I would _like_ to see something more like PS238, but the primary goal is a way to draw people.

 

As Chris pointed out, there are lots of re-hashes of...  well, _everything_ for D&D, _however_--

 

I think we can all agree that, at least for the past twenty years, Champions doesn't have the kind of recognition that brings that sort of luxury.  Still, I would think a single slim setting; some adventures as a single book would be a good thing.

 

 

[SCUBA Hero]

13 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

I'm not entirely sure where we got the idea that we needed a new rules book; I think I had mentioned before that CC would serve well enough.  I would _like_ to see something more like PS238, but the primary goal is a way to draw people.

 

I started down that road: a one-book-complete-to-play idea, but now I'm thinking Champions Complete plus a new campaign book would draw more new people.

[Duke Bushido]

8 minutes ago, SCUBA Hero said:

 

I started down that road: a one-book-complete-to-play idea, but now I'm thinking Champions Complete plus a new campaign book would draw more new people.

 

 

Ah; I see.

 

Thank you, Sir.  I had totally missed that.

 

 

[Spence]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 But we need specific, agreed-upon shared standards of power levels so that a GM can pick up a book and go "perfect for my game".

 

I agree with the point but not the statement.  We do not need an agreed upon anything. 

The actual person that decides to actually write something needs to pick a power level/standard and write to it.

One of Hero's biggest issues, if not the biggest, is that it doesn't define anything.  It vomits an infinite variable range at new players and say "have fun".  New players then look at it get crossed eyes and move to a different game. 

M&M include the same broad possible ranges that Hero does. 

 

But they pick a standard power level for everyone to use and then mention you can deviate.

They follow up by building everything scaled to the default level. 

 

Hero actually does that to a degree also.  But they never actually say it or define it. 

 

58 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

I'm not entirely sure where we got the idea that we needed a new rules book; I think I had mentioned before that CC would serve well enough. 

 

43 minutes ago, SCUBA Hero said:

 

I started down that road: a one-book-complete-to-play idea, but now I'm thinking Champions Complete plus a new campaign book would draw more new people.

 

I think you are on to something, but I don't think it has to be Champions Complete and the Campaign Book. 

We are in the ebook age.  Write the Campaign using just names and titles. 

 

Have an appendix that has all the character sheets for the major NPCs, minor ones, creatures, equipment etc.  

 

Put each Major or significant NPC on their own page.  None of this multiple characters/minions/creatures on the same page.  None of the hated half on the page and running over to another. 

 

If it is Fantasy Hero and your Goblins always appear in groups of 5 to 10, then their entry in the appendix will be a minion control sheet with stat blocks and a BDY/STN/END list for 10. 

 

The GM can flip to the page and see EVERYTHING they need on ONE page. 

 

You can have two appendices split into two parts.  The first for play with just ability names and must have information.  The second for full detailed build sheets.

 

Appendix A for 6th Ed/CC

Appendix B for 5thR

 

The campaign will play out regardless of the version of appendix used and addressing both will make the campaign appeal regardless of preferred edition.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Player's Handbook, Unearthed Arcana, Player's Handbook II, Dungeoneer's Survival Guide, Wilderness Survival Guide

 

That's... not even close.  They aren't replacements, they're sequels and additions.  They don't reprint the Player's Hand book with a slighty different format and content, they add new stuff and content.

[Scott Ruggels]

Well Chris, why would you need higher power levels if these thin adventures are directed towards beginning players? Sure I guess we can have higher power levels, but I think that those would be one offs, or specific power levels with three, four, five books linked to a longer adventure.  
 

The other approach is to pile on opposition, adding combatants in response to the power levels of the player characters. This is how I used to do it but I was not afraid of large massed battles.  And no I didn’t use the clay pigeon style opposition. Wargamer, remember?

[Scott Ruggels]

OK, so I’m sitting here in the dark, putting my insomnia to some sort of productive use, and reading over the massive replies to this thread. OK so we don’t need a new rule book, because champions complete still exists. However, it’s not well organized. But I guess it’s something we’ll have to live with for now. So, someone suggested Baycity, as the base background city for this endeavor.  it might be to the projects advantage, if individual authors, or teams, tackle a city independently. If the authors, or teams are in a current champions campaign, they might be able to adapt things to their power levels. If it is important to offer different power levels to beginners, then why not treat the power levels, like big league baseball, with small cities being the farm teams, and the big cities being the big leagues?

 

All in all what we need are clean professional, edited, colorful, inexpensive, and easy to understand adventures suitable for beginners. Physical product would be nice but unfortunately, the FLGS, may not be a option anymore, so PDF, organized for print on demand would still be the way to go. 

[Lord Liaden]

36 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Well Chris, why would you need higher power levels if these thin adventures are directed towards beginning players? Sure I guess we can have higher power levels, but I think that those would be one offs, or specific power levels with three, four, five books linked to a longer adventure. 

 

Since we've discussed setting up a power ranking system for PCs and their enemies, I think the classic D&D model of a series of adventure "modules" linked in a longer campaign, would be practical for those who'd like to follow a story line to its conclusion. Those modules always suggested a range of character "levels" that the adventure was suited for. So we'd design a first adventure with opponents geared to beginning characters, advertised as such, then gradually ramp up the challenge with each subsequent adventure as the PCs gain Experience, labeling the adventures as suited for characters of progressively higher rank.

[Mark Rand]

I was considering Coastal City from the 3E module Atlas Unleashed.  However, Bay City, from the Champions: New Millennium line is a good city, too.

[Scott Ruggels]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

Since we've discussed setting up a power ranking system for PCs and their enemies, I think the classic D&D model of a series of adventure "modules" linked in a longer campaign, would be practical for those who'd like to follow a story line to its conclusion. Those modules always suggested a range of character "levels" that the adventure was suited for. So we'd design a first adventure with opponents geared to beginning characters, advertised as such, then gradually ramp up the challenge with each subsequent adventure as the PCs gain Experience, labeling the adventures as suited for characters of progressively higher rank.

Yes, but champions characters don’t have levels. Character progression in champions usually just means adding skills.Yes, but champions characters don’t have levels. Character progression in champions usually just means adding skills, and small powers.  However, if these are linked adventures, you can handle it like Paizo did. Make the first adventure for beginning heroes, 300 400 points with 12 die maximum attacks? (I am used to 10 die attacks to start). Then all you need to do, it’s total up 3 XP per combat engagement in the book, and add it to the minimum points for the next book. Lather, rinse, repeat, for the book after, and so on.  You may want to add options in each encounter, for larger or smaller teams, usually between five, and eight heroes.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Well Chris, why would you need higher power levels if these thin adventures are directed towards beginning players?

 

In addition to what Lord Liaden said about creating a campaign arc and equivalent of character "levels" there's this question:

 

What's a beginning character?

 

400 points?

300 points?

287 points?

 

I'm not being facetious here, this is not meant to be mocking.  What actually consists of a starting Champions character in 6th edition?

 

With actual, official guidelines, the adventures not only will have shared build structure and a streamlined, unified approach, but it gives writers clear guidelines to work from and start with so they know what to work with rather than a blank sheet of paper.

 

And finally, when further adventures are released, it helps with those builds as well by creating an official standard for how Champions adventures are written and presented.  We can talk more about this in the future, but having and official format for how the adventures look and are laid out would be good as well for shared consistency.

[Lord Liaden]

3 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Yes, but champions characters don’t have levels. Character progression in champions usually just means adding skills.Yes, but champions characters don’t have levels. Character progression in champions usually just means adding skills, and small powers.  However, if these are linked adventures, you can handle it like Paizo did. Make the first adventure for beginning heroes, 300 400 points with 12 die maximum attacks? (I am used to 10 die attacks to start). Then all you need to do, it’s total up 3 XP per combat engagement in the book, and add it to the minimum points for the next book. Lather, rinse, repeat, for the book after, and so on.  You may want to add options in each encounter, for larger or smaller teams, usually between five, and eight heroes.

 

I'm afraid the progression of characters in my four-color Champions campaigns hasn't matched that outline. Most of my players have wanted to become more powerful, i.e. add more STR, SPD, DEF, Damage Classes, etc. Adventures catering to stronger PCs will have to be written to standards where the defined average and range of those abilities is higher, and those standards recommended for PCs playing the adventures.

 

Perhaps one of the old character balancing calculations brought up in past Hero materials, like the "Rule of X" or the Effectiveness Rating, could be adapted to figure those guidelines.

[Chris Goodwin]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

In addition to what Lord Liaden said about creating a campaign arc and equivalent of character "levels" there's this question:

 

What's a beginning character?

 

400 points?

300 points?

287 points?

 

I'm not being facetious here, this is not meant to be mocking.  What actually consists of a starting Champions character in 6th edition?

 

A "standard superhero" in 6th edition Champions is 400 total points, with 75 points in Matching Complications.  Equivalent to 350 total (200+150) in 5th edition, and probably roughly equivalent to 350 total in prior editions, even though "standard superhero" was 100+150 in 4th edition.

 

I've played 6th edition Champions games with starting points ranging from 300 to 400.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

A "standard superhero" in 6th edition Champions is 400 total points, with 75 points in Matching Complications.

 

That's what the book says.  What does it mean?

 

Is that a standard experienced character?  A beginner?  And in what kind of genre or setting?  Street level?  Mid-Range Spider-Man type?  Avengers level big time battles?

 

And how powerful on attack, on defenses, so we know how to balance enemies against them?  60 active points? 75?  40?

 

See what I mean?  We need more details and categories to dial down information so writers can not just create adventures (or adapt existing adventures) but create them consistently and usefully for GMs to pick up and go "I know what this will be like in my campaign"

 

The basic vague generalities given in the books are fine for basic rules: make your campaign boys!  WHEEE!!

 

But if we are going to create a world, populate that specific place, create campaigns and fill those campaigns with adventures, we have to be more specific and exact, so that we get consistency and more importantly valuable and useful products.

[HeroGM]

[Scott Ruggels]

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

In addition to what Lord Liaden said about creating a campaign arc and equivalent of character "levels" there's this question:

 

What's a beginning character?

 

400 points?

300 points?

287 points?

 

I'm not being facetious here, this is not meant to be mocking.  What actually consists of a starting Champions character in 6th edition?

 

Maybe  use Lord Liaden's Rule of X? criteria? Starting points, is a good baseline, but there has to be a  mention about Defenses, Maximum DC, Highest allowable speed, and that sort of thing. Maybe disallow powers like Clairvoyance, or Megascale Teleport? Again, because there is no class system, power level kind of has to be back calculated.  The Original Adventures were made for 250pt. Heroes and 10DC for the adventures up to 4th Edition.

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

With actual, official guidelines, the adventures not only will have shared build structure and a streamlined, unified approach, but it gives writers clear guidelines to work from and start with so they know what to work with rather than a blank sheet of paper.

 

 Agreed. to make the editing easier, we will need a set of guidelines. What structure thought?  Comics?  Television? Movies?  Sandbox?  What? 

 

5 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

And finally, when further adventures are released, it helps with those builds as well by creating an official standard for how Champions adventures are written and presented.  We can talk more about this in the future, but having and official format for how the adventures look and are laid out would be good as well for shared consistency.

 

In other projects I have worked on, and also the book covers I have worked on as well, has set "cover dress".  They are a set size.  and are usually made, and provided from  The Art department, and are set up so that it makes pre-press easy for the printers, and for the artists to keep things within spec. These will usually contain the cover graphics, a space for a title, with a font specified, and a place for the ISBN Bar code, and/or the Price.  These REALLY Help for layout. 

Inside the format should be specified. One  or two column.  Illustration size. illustrations border, or borderless,  fonts, and numbering.   In broad terms a format for presenting the material should be worked up, as well, so that authors can work from an outline, and then fill it out. I suppose follow a Paiso-like approach once again, as that seems to work.

But the page count needs to be very limited, again to keep things short and expenses low. Sound good?

4 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

I'm afraid the progression of characters in my four-color Champions campaigns hasn't matched that outline. Most of my players have wanted to become more powerful, i.e. add more STR, SPD, DEF, Damage Classes, etc. Adventures catering to stronger PCs will have to be written to standards where the defined average and range of those abilities is higher, and those standards recommended for PCs playing the adventures.

 

Perhaps one of the old character balancing calculations brought up in past Hero materials, like the "Rule of X" or the Effectiveness Rating, could be adapted to figure those guidelines.

 

I guess in out case was that the GM would not allow buying up attacks, or defenses. If we saved our XPs, we could buy another power, or buy off disads, but 10 dice was 10 dice.. But getting more skills was very helpful as was buying more and different defenses.

[SCUBA Hero]

Updating the previous rough proposal...

 

Product: Coastal City Champions (working title).

 

Purpose: Bring new players into Champions. Hopefully get them interested in broader Hero System products.

 

Method: A single book that provides a ready-to-play campaign with all the toolkit settings specified (a 'campaign+game' not a 'toolkit') plus tips on how to play, power levels, attacks and defenses, a sample hero team and villains, including an organization (Viper?) and master villain (Dr. Destroyer? Mechanon? New?), and a city setting developed enough to start a campaign (Mark Rand is considering the Pittsburgh area, transplanted to the West Coast) with a ready-to-run scenario that launches the players and GM into that city. Brief info on the larger world.  In D&D terms - Champions Complete is the DMG and PH, Coastal City Champions is the setting (i.e., Greyhawk) and MM.

 

Power Level:  Keep attacks at the standard 60AP/12d6 and defenses at the standard 20-25 to maintain parity with previously published material.  BUT:  simplify.  Maybe 350CP and 60 Complications??  The beginning superhero has (at a baseline) a single attack rather than a Multipower or a Unified Power.  Simpler builds; keep Advantages and Limitations to a reasonable minimum.  Let the characters (and players) grow into 450CP supers with Multipowers, etc. - *and* a better idea of adn appreciation for how to play and use those additional abilities.

 

Funding: Kickstarter. Start with a nice color cover and minimal B&W interior artwork; stretch goals would add more artwork and then upgrade it to color. Mention (and have) plans for future supplements: more linked adventures, a city development book; also to use Kickstarter.  Maybe have a second adventure, linked to the first, at a high enough stretch goal to fund it.

 

Staff:  Writer (Mark Rand for the setting, either Mark or someone else for the non-setting content). Editor. Proof-reader. Artist(s). Project coordinator.  There are several pro-level, accomplished Hero authors.  I am neither a writer nor an editor, but I can proof-read and coordinate.

[steriaca]

Mark is free to use Robert Trueheart/Lady Heart for the setting. He would make for an intresting slightly above freshman level hero to guide the new heros but not advance enough to be a seasoned super.

 

Same with SCUBA Hero.

[Lord Liaden]

I would recommend minimizing NPC heroes in Coastal City, including any example hero team. The PCs should be the new cadre of heroes becoming the city's chief defenders. Rather than a default official team, write up a set of heroes that players can not only use as examples, but can play themselves right away if they don't want to deal with chargen. Perhaps one of each of the character archetypes described in Champions (ten or eleven, depending on whether you include "Patriot" as one of them), which players can pick and mix-and-match as they choose, alongside any player-created heroes.

 

NPC heroes should be the type who would make useful contacts or support, but not powerful enough to overshadow the PCs when it comes to significant threats, e.g. scientist, mystic, detective, etc.

[Grailknight]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

I would recommend minimizing NPC heroes in Coastal City, including any example hero team. The PCs should be the new cadre of heroes becoming the city's chief defenders. Rather than a default official team, write up a set of heroes that players can not only use as examples, but can play themselves right away if they don't want to deal with chargen. Perhaps one of each of the character archetypes described in Champions (ten or eleven, depending on whether you include "Patriot" as one of them), which players can pick and mix-and-match as they choose, alongside any player-created heroes.

 

NPC heroes should be the type who would make useful contacts or support, but not powerful enough to overshadow the PCs when it comes to significant threats, e.g. scientist, mystic, detective, etc.

 

I would suggest a sample NPC hero team be 3-4 detailed members with another 3-4 left as background for a future book. These example heroes should be useable by new players who are not sure of what they want to create for themselves until they are more comfortable with HERO. Use  a simpler version of V.O.I.C.E of doom, with some being injured, retiring or even going bad. 

[steriaca]

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

I would recommend minimizing NPC heroes in Coastal City, including any example hero team. The PCs should be the new cadre of heroes becoming the city's chief defenders. Rather than a default official team, write up a set of heroes that players can not only use as examples, but can play themselves right away if they don't want to deal with chargen. Perhaps one of each of the character archetypes described in Champions (ten or eleven, depending on whether you include "Patriot" as one of them), which players can pick and mix-and-match as they choose, alongside any player-created heroes.

I can agree that NPC heroes shouldn't be more important than whatever the players come up with, BUT players DO need examples to follow. Prehaps the first setting book shouldn't have many NPC heroes, but again, should the players actually feel like they actually are the only force of good in the world? Shouldn't the heroes actually have protental allies?

1 hour ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

NPC heroes should be the type who would make useful contacts or support, but not powerful enough to overshadow the PCs when it comes to significant threats, e.g. scientist, mystic, detective, etc.

Ok. So your arguing FOR npc heroes? What if the NPC heroes end up more powerful by the groups who do play by player design?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

 

Maybe  use Lord Liaden's Rule of X? criteria? Starting points, is a good baseline, but there has to be a  mention about Defenses, Maximum DC, Highest allowable speed, and that sort of thing.\

 

 

Right, starting points is just a step in giving what a writer needs to design an adventure around. 

 

For example, just made up on the spot:

 

Street Level Hero:
Starting Points: 300-325

Complications: 70-100

Active Point Limit: 45-50

Max normal stat: 35

Max DC: 10

Defenses Limit: 25/15 resistant

Movement Limit: 25m

Max Speed: 6

 

This gives you your Daredevil/Nightwing/Punisher/Huntress type character.  Capable, maybe a few powers, but can be challenged by normal humans.  Their Rogues Gallery is going to be more thugs and gangsters, not aliens and mutants.

 

I mean we can discuss the ranges and I just threw out some numbers here but you get the idea, this kind of range for like "kid that discovered mutant powers", "One-powered adventurer", "Low level superhero" and "Superteam Group Member" etc gives writers immediate, easy to use limits on their characters to make sure you don't have One Punch Man walking around fighting the Power Pack.

 

With this info somewhere known, public, and useful (yes, this would be one of the things that would go into Yet Another Version of Champions I know) you can then just put INVASION OF THE GLEENS! *A Street Level Adventure* and everyone knows the game.

[Scott Ruggels]

2 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

I would recommend minimizing NPC heroes in Coastal City, including any example hero team. The PCs should be the new cadre of heroes becoming the city's chief defenders. Rather than a default official team, write up a set of heroes that players can not only use as examples, but can play themselves right away if they don't want to deal with chargen. Perhaps one of each of the character archetypes described in Champions (ten or eleven, depending on whether you include "Patriot" as one of them), which players can pick and mix-and-match as they choose, alongside any player-created heroes.

 

NPC heroes should be the type who would make useful contacts or support, but not powerful enough to overshadow the PCs when it comes to significant threats, e.g. scientist, mystic, detective, etc.

 

I would have examples, but I would not have them as NPC Heroes, but as player Pregenerateds,  minumum of five maximum of 8, and like Champions Begins, just a name and a set of powers, and a male and female illo of each. Have them in the back of the book, in and index, but refer to them in the text if one needs and example. Leave it up to the GM to choose to use them or not as NPCs.