Catch Arrow to use

[Christopher R Taylor]

How do you build grabbing an arrow shot at you out of the air, and then use later to shoot at a target?

[unclevlad]

I doubt there's a clean way to do it.

 

The cleanest starting point is Deflection;  only versus arrows is listed as -1/2 (the arrow shield spell), but a notable question is how common arrows are, and to a lesser degree, does "arrows" include crossbow bolts, thrown javelins (heck, they're easier, most likely), etc.?

 

The simplest approaches would seem to be:

--split the deflection and the catch intact:  2 rolls, first to deflect, the second to actually *catch* it without breaking it. It's the very fine timing...you've got a TINY window to grab the main body of the arrow.  Somewhat natural might be a Sleight of Hand roll at a serious penalty...small object, moving fast.

--simpler:  if you miss the catch, you miss the deflect.  So, Deflection, arrows only, RSR.  Given that the skill roll would be atop the penalties for a ranged block?  This would be VERY hard to pull off, I suspect.  Again, figuring out the actual roll might be a trip, as it doesn't feel standard.  RSR at least gives you a reasonable framework to work in.

 

There would be cases where I'd tend to say...yeah, you can catch it...but not intact.  Like a powder- or liquid-filled head or shaft where you want it to shatter.  Or any arrow designated as a fragile focus.  And pretty clearly, the intent is that this has to be an actual, physical arrow. 

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

This comes off as one od those "luchadores do double damage against monsters" / "vampires on holy ground" things.  That is to say, this seems like the end result of how your campaign world works.  You can take a complicated, time-charted Reflection "time,chart to indicate that you might not 'redicet" this particular arrow for a couple od months), amd that couls concievably work without any serious hitches.

 

However, ithink another, simpler solution is to require that bows be built with Recoverable Charges.  It is _assumed_ that the bowman will be the person recoering them, but it is not _mandated_ that no one else may do so.

 

After That, it is a matter of what you requure to catch the arrow:

 

DEX roll?

Catch Arrow Skill deck?

Deflection?

Random chance?  

 

I would think an OCV against OCV roll as the basic mechanic, maybe applying skill leves specifically,for arrow catching,  somthing like +4 OCV when attemptong to catch arrows fired directly at him.  You xould even make it a martial maneuver, if that's your particular bag.

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Now that I think about it, Reflection probably is the cleanest way to do it, with a delay and some fiddling to require the bow.

[LoneWolf]

The best way to do this is to take recoverable charges on your bow and purchase missile deflections with the special effect of catching the item.  The book states that recoverable charges that normally recoverable charges can only be recovered after combat but allow for exceptions with the right special effect.  Catching an arrow is a reasonable special effect for recovering charges.

 

If this is a heroic campaign this would allow an archer to simply purchase missile deflection and define it as catching arrows.  In a super powered campaign, the archer will need to purchase his attack with recoverable charges.  

 

Reflection will work, but only if you are immediately shooting the arrow. 
 

[Hugh Neilson]

Add me to "missile deflection defined as arrow catching" allowing for recoverable charges to be recoverable.

 

If the PC's defeated three Goblins with bows, and they had a total of 7 arrows they had not fired, the PCs could take the arrows.  This character paid points to avoid being hit by the arrow and, incidentally, be able to recover a charge for his bow in another way.

[Duke Bushido]

This d9es br8ng up an,interesting question (I have been sitting in the truck for nearly an hour now waiting for Noisy.  We were supposed,to leave at noon to go to the coast and get her a new helmet.  Haven't left yet, so I thought I would check in):

 

Does this add to your character's recoverable charges?   I know most people don't charge CP for equipment and such, but there is always that one guy who wants to use CP on one prticular item so that it becomes a "can't ever really lose it" item, hence the question.

 

Does he know have ten of his 'eight charges, revoverable'?  If so, does he have to allocate future EP to cover the cost, refundable upon failing to recover them next time?

 

Does the guy from whom he recovered the arrows now find himself unable to whittle and sketch new arrows for some mysterious reason, at least until the guy who has the missing arrows breaks or loses them?

 

Certainly, none of these queations are important, and can be hand waived as trivial and "it will al work out in the end."  They are completely irrelevant if no one is using CP to buy bows or arrows.  (Should arrows be built as separate END Reserves of charges that are useable by bows, and bows built as "ranged Attack enablers, arrows required" instead of a complete bow-and-arrow package?)

 

Again, not important.  I ask then only because ultimately, the lead to questioning some basic game concepts, and they relate more directly than it at first seems,to the age-old debate of how one does or does not go into the business of manufacturing magical items he then sells, or otherwise diatributes for use amongst people he may never see again...

[Christopher R Taylor]

I built it as reflection for simplicity's sake, and because any time you see someone use this ability in any example of media, they immediately or after a very short delay shoot the newly acquired arrow.  Its unlikely to me that someone would just grab an arrow out of the sky and stick it in their quiver in any case.

 

How to build it with rules when you just grab an arrow and keep it, well that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.  You can use deflection to grab or keep an arrow, how the arrow doesn't hit you is special effect.  Since in 6th edition anyone can deflect arrows with their bare hands (!?!), its just something you can do.   So that part of the ability would probably be a bonus to OCV to do the block roll with.

 

As for keeping the arrow?  Well its not unreasonable for the GM to just rule "now you have an arrow" no different than if someone threw a stein at your head and you caught it.  Hey, free stein!  Since in a heroic game you pay for abilities with money or serendipity, like finding a quiver of arrows in a monster's lair, the fact that you gained a "charge" of an attack is pretty irrelevant; you're not buying the power with points and charges becomes pretty nebulous for an archer in a medieval setting anyway.

[Hugh Neilson]

Reflection works for "immediately shooting it back" as it will not require a subsequent action to fire the arrow back.

[Duke Bushido]

So let's look at the example of a ninja grabbing an arrow out of the air.  He has no bow, but the arrow makes a reasonable shiv that he uses to stab one of the guards in front of him.  Then he pulls it out and pockets it, and ten minutws later he sneaks up on another guard and ventilates his kidneys a couole of times before the arrow-  I dont know; gets abandoned?  Breaks?

 

If it doesnt break, can the guy who finds the body then recover it again, and add the ranges attack charge / hand to hand attack killing bonus to his inventory, and so on and so forth?

 

Again:  I confess that this is a ludicrous corner case; I propose this thoight experiment _not_ because it is especially germaine to _this_ conversation, but because it it so beautifully parellels other, more vigorously disputed concepts (making and distribuitng magic items being the one that seems to be the most-hotly discussed).

[unclevlad]

The issue with Recoverable Charges is that your arrows will generally not match the arrows that get shot at you.  If the assumption is that most arrows are more or less normal, and have little differentiation, then reflection should work.

 

To mimic the catch and shoot back later...Reflection with Limited Power, Requires an Attack Action to return fire?  That would be kinda sweet visually...if you're holding action, then you catch the arrow, and smoothly nock and fire it right back.  That should be worth an immediate Presence Attack.

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

In some of the newer martial art books, there’s the Jack Burton Talent which is really similar to the OP’s question. However I’m away from my books. 

[Duke Bushido]

I am going to say, in spite of the probes into the ramifications of this that I have suggested, that I would specify Deflection.  Otherwise, when you loose the caotured arrow next week, it is foing to hit the guy you took it from.

 

 

 

 

[unclevlad]

Reflection has a +1/2 advantage, Any Target.  It's a GM's permission point.

 

Plus, Reflection has an active point factor...and potentially, it's not cheap.  A 2d6 RKA bow is 30 active, so it costs 45 to reflect it.  And it costs END.  So to catch this, we're talking 67 active and 7 END, if the principle is Reflection (up to 30 active), any target.  OK, there are some nice limitations, but it's still likely to be fairly pricey.

 

EDIT:  my bad, misread it.  2 points for 3 active in the attack...DOH!!!  So 30 active would be 20 to start with.  Still gets up there for a nastier attack.

[Ninja-Bear]

Actually for 6th you just use Block instead Deflection. I’ll find the appropriate Skill in HSMA.  So I’d just by +x Block sfx grabbing arrows and the reshooting of arrow can just be a function of Reusable.

[SCUBA Hero]

I'd also make it a -2 or -3 roll.  Catching the arrow has to be harder than deflecting it.

 

Or, if this is Wuxia catch-the-arrow-nock-and-fire-in-one-motion, Reflection with Requires a Bow to actually Reflect (otherwise the catcher still has the arrow, but cannot fire back in the same action).

[Ninja-Bear]

18 minutes ago, SCUBA Hero said:

I'd also make it a -2 or -3 roll.  Catching the arrow has to be harder than deflecting it.

 

Or, if this is Wuxia catch-the-arrow-nock-and-fire-in-one-motion, Reflection with Requires a Bow to actually Reflect (otherwise the catcher still has the arrow, but cannot fire back in the same action).

That's definitely a fair point. And of course that is my minor issue with using Block in this manner. The GM has to determine how much if any penalty applies to the Block. Not to mention if it is allowed at all. 

[LoneWolf]

Blocking a ranged attack in 6th edition is at the GM’s option. The section has a lot of suggestions including that it requires a weapon or other object to block with.  It also suggests that the penalty for blocking a ranged attack unarmed should be more severe than normal with a suggested minimum of -4 or worse.  

 

 

I would require the character to purchase something before I allowed the character to use a ranged block.  It does not have to be expensive a martial block, or even a couple of skill levels with this specific maneuver.   If the character did that, I would allow them to do it with no penalties.   If the character purchased reflection that would also be acceptable.

[unclevlad]

Yeah, at the start of this thread, the big penalty was on my mind as well, if it's only gonna be based on Block.

 

If it's based on Deflection or Reflection, it'll be costing a fair number of points.  That said, I'd treat it as a GM's permission only.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Blocking a ranged attack in 6th edition is at the GM’s option.

 

The penalties and circumstances are, but being able to block ranged attacks is just part of the rules (hence why missile deflection was deleted).  I consider this a pretty odd and poor decision, but it does reflect martial arts movies well.

[dmjalund]

i note there seems to be no rules in Hero System for catching things

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think the assumption is that deflecting is the same as catching, so you decide when you do it what happens to the object: catch it it of the air or bat it aside?

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I think the assumption is that deflecting is the same as catching, so you decide when you do it what happens to the object: catch it it of the air or bat it aside?

 

No way.  Not a chance.  Wonder Woman doesn't catch the bullets;  she knocks them away with her bracelets.  Cap uses his shield.  Thor's occasionally shown whirling his hammer at amazing speed.  The catching trick is a high-end, RARE, martial artist's trick, ok, but I'm very confident it is NOT the assumption.

[Ninja-Bear]

12 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

The penalties and circumstances are, but being able to block ranged attacks is just part of the rules (hence why missile deflection was deleted).  I consider this a pretty odd and poor decision, but it does reflect martial arts movies well.

I feel though that the rules change weren’t for just martial arts. Consider a Fantasy game. In a tavern brawl a common genre scene would be for a character to use a platter or stool to Block a thrown object, usually a knife, at them. Pre-6th barring GM fiat, btb, I don’t remember you being able to do that.  6th you can, albeit with GM guidance.  My contention is that GM guidance on this is rather sparse.

[Hugh Neilson]

11 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

No way.  Not a chance.  Wonder Woman doesn't catch the bullets;  she knocks them away with her bracelets.  Cap uses his shield.  Thor's occasionally shown whirling his hammer at amazing speed.  The catching trick is a high-end, RARE, martial artist's trick, ok, but I'm very confident it is NOT the assumption.

 

What's the difference between catching a bullet and deflecting it?  It's not good for anything after.  You can't "catch" a laser beam.

 

I could see the choice of catching a projectile without damaging it, so the character can use it afterwards, being a benefit of paying for the Deflection power.