Spears

[greypaladin_01]

Probably a big issue with spears, and polearms.. and pretty much anything not "sword" in most RPG games is that between fantasy tv, movies, books, video games and TTRPGs... the sword is pretty much always king.   And bow is runner up, ignoring all the reasons why crossbows took over in many ways.... not to mention how dangerous a proper sling was for trained users.

 

Trying to make each type of weapon different from each other I feel leads to greater variation than REALY matters... or should happen for table game.   Even the -1 OCV mentioned earlier for a spear seems to only be there to make it different.  If anything, it should only apply if someone is inside the 'threat range' of the spear... few games really seem to model range/reach well.

[Old Man]

1 hour ago, greypaladin_01 said:

Probably a big issue with spears, and polearms.. and pretty much anything not "sword" in most RPG games is that between fantasy tv, movies, books, video games and TTRPGs... the sword is pretty much always king.   And bow is runner up, ignoring all the reasons why crossbows took over in many ways.... not to mention how dangerous a proper sling was for trained users.

 

Trying to make each type of weapon different from each other I feel leads to greater variation than REALY matters... or should happen for table game.   Even the -1 OCV mentioned earlier for a spear seems to only be there to make it different.  If anything, it should only apply if someone is inside the 'threat range' of the spear... few games really seem to model range/reach well.

 

IIRC 4th ed had rules for weapon reach; the short weapon had -1 OCV until it scored a hit, and then the long weapon had the -1 OCV until its wielder backed up.  Something like that.  Idk if it's in later editions.

[LoneWolf]

While greater height can mean greater strength that is not always the case.  I am a lot taller than my brother in-law, but he does a lot more physical work than me.   When we moved to a new hose he was able to move stuff a lot easier than I could.  If you think just because you are taller you are stronger than someone who engages in hard physical labor you are mistaken.  Historically the average height has gone up because of better nutrition and medical care, but that does not translate into stronger people.  Obesity has also dramatically increased from the past.   The average modern man is probably weaker than the average man in the past.  The modern athlete on the other hand is probably a lot stronger than those in the past.  

[Scott Ruggels]

Length of spear does matter. So accounting for reach is important because it means that I can hit you with my spear while you cannot hit me with your sword. And if we get up in the pikes, you are talking about very long pointy spears. This gets into I can hit you, but you cannot hit me with your horse.  My long running fantasy, hero campaign was in the pike and shot period. Mased infantry was some thing that the player characters just did not want to tangle with, unless they had powerful AOE spells, as long as they were not mages behind the infantry line or in the squares.

[GDShore]

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Posted 3 hours ago

While greater height can mean greater strength that is not always the case.  I am a lot taller than my brother in-law, but he does a lot more physical work than me.   When we moved to a new hose he was able to move stuff a lot easier than I could.  If you think just because you are taller you are stronger than someone who engages in hard physical labor you are mistaken.  Historically the average height has gone up because of better nutrition and medical care, but that does not translate into stronger people.  Obesity has also dramatically increased from the past.   The average modern man is probably weaker than the average man in the past.  The modern athlete on the other hand is probably a lot stronger than those in the past. 

LoneWolf has a point, My father was 5'13/4" tall and massed somewhere between 65 and 75 kilo's, I am 6" taller than he is and he was way stronger than I have ever been. The only area I surpassed him was in running, I could always outrun him, of course that did not mean I escaped the punishment just delayed it. Overall though as he suggests we are healthier, and longer lived. The Russian peasant of the late 16th. and early 17th. centuries had a life expectancy between 32 and 36 years, the French around 42 and the English peasant closing on 50. An ancient man was someone who managed to reach 65 to 70 years old. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

About life expectancies its good to remember that this is an average life expectancy.  That is, you take all the people, add together the age they died at and divide by the number of people.  It doesn't mean people didn't manage to live past 50 often, it means that a lot of people died very young.  It was pretty unlikely for a child to survive their first year.  This pulls the average down significantly.  Since peasants got a lot of hard work, usually outdoors, and ate a steady, consistent hearty diet, they probably were not especially more sickly in 1100 than 1900.  True, a lot of diseases we don't worry about today were around, but by being isolated and a small community, they avoided most of the problems, most of the time.

[GDShore]

As Mr. Ruggels says length does matter, in weapon to weapon combat. Probably though not as much as you might think. I watched more than twenty years of combat in the S.C.A. and witnessed many spearmen (21) and of those only 1 was really successful. Most of them fought spear and shield and only one of those was semi successful, (he used a roman legion style shield). The successful spearman used a long spear two handed, bladed at one end with a mace head at the other. The sword and board guys never stood a chance against him, the other spearmen fell like autumn leaves. Weapon length though is important, a lot of adventures occur underground in dungeons and maze's or in buildings, the RPG template D&D has its corridors at 10x10, 10 foot by 10 foot. The hero template has its "HERO" at 2 meters tall, with an arm that is 1/2 to 3/4 meter long, into which a sword is placed into the hand at the end of that arm, a sword that will be at least a meter of steel beyond that hand. Now try a chop with that sword, in a corridor that is 3.25 meter high you are trying to slice a .25 meter hole in the roof. Chops and slashes disappear from the dungeon repertoire and only one fighter is engaged at a time. Unless you shield wall, then you are reduced to Roman tactics, the ginzu with the Gladius. I posit therefore that in the dungeon that the best weapon is the "spear", most likely the Asagai. As early as '83 I made all my dungeon corridors 4 meter x 4 meters, and all rooms with 4 meter ceilings. That means however that pikes, halberds and long spears are completely out as dungeon weapons. By '85 dungeons were a once in 20 to 25 sessions adventure. (bows are nearly as useful in a standard corridor and only slightly more so in my 4x4's) 

[GDShore]

Yes life expectancy is an average, but that means that most will die closer to or below that average. Archeological digs on medieval cemeteries shows that those on the lower economic scale suffered a lot more from "osteo" type diseases that will shorten life expectancy. While most peasants avoided "townie" diseases if they reached a pesant community that community died entire. (no built up immunity) If you are going to be born during the middle ages you. do. not. want to be born at the bottom of the economic pyramid. (of course you don't want to be born on the bottom in any era, but at least we,, have a chance to move up, a serf was a serf as were his children). 

[Scott Ruggels]

22 minutes ago, GDShore said:

As Mr. Ruggels says length does matter, in weapon to weapon combat. Probably though not as much as you might think. I watched more than twenty years of combat in the S.C.A. and witnessed many spearmen (21) and of those only 1 was really successful. Most of them fought spear and shield and only one of those was semi successful, (he used a roman legion style shield). The successful spearman used a long spear two handed, bladed at one end with a mace head at the other. The sword and board guys never stood a chance against him, the other spearmen fell like autumn leaves. Weapon length though is important, a lot of adventures occur underground in dungeons and maze's or in buildings, the RPG template D&D has its corridors at 10x10, 10 foot by 10 foot. The hero template has its "HERO" at 2 meters tall, with an arm that is 1/2 to 3/4 meter long, into which a sword is placed into the hand at the end of that arm, a sword that will be at least a meter of steel beyond that hand. Now try a chop with that sword, in a corridor that is 3.25 meter high you are trying to slice a .25 meter hole in the roof. Chops and slashes disappear from the dungeon repertoire and only one fighter is engaged at a time. Unless you shield wall, then you are reduced to Roman tactics, the ginzu with the Gladius. I posit therefore that in the dungeon that the best weapon is the "spear", most likely the Asagai. As early as '83 I made all my dungeon corridors 4 meter x 4 meters, and all rooms with 4 meter ceilings. That means however that pikes, halberds and long spears are completely out as dungeon weapons. By '85 dungeons were a once in 20 to 25 sessions adventure. (bows are nearly as useful in a standard corridor and only slightly more so in my 4x4's) 

Dungeon? I’m Fantasy Hero? What is this of which you speak? This isn’t D&D!!😁. Most of our adventures were outdoors in the weather. 

[GDShore]

Agreed, after '85 so were mine. Dungeons however have a much simpler template to plan on and in truth to play in. 

[Old Man]

38 minutes ago, GDShore said:

Yes life expectancy is an average, but that means that most will die closer to or below that average. Archeological digs on medieval cemeteries shows that those on the lower economic scale suffered a lot more from "osteo" type diseases that will shorten life expectancy. While most peasants avoided "townie" diseases if they reached a pesant community that community died entire. (no built up immunity) If you are going to be born during the middle ages you. do. not. want to be born at the bottom of the economic pyramid. (of course you don't want to be born on the bottom in any era, but at least we,, have a chance to move up, a serf was a serf as were his children). 

Lack of antibiotics or basic knowledge about medicine affected everyone regardless of class. George Washington was killed by bloodletting well after the Middle Ages.  

[GDShore]

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Lack of antibiotics or basic knowledge about medicine affected everyone regardless of class. George Washington was killed by bloodletting well after the Middle Ages.  

Absolutely correct, the era of modern medicine begins with the second world war, the introduction of major vaccination begins in the 50's millions (probably billions) have had their lives improved, or saved because of same. I lost 5 childhood friends to polio and 3 others permanently crippled by it, yet here we are in the 21 st. century and imbecilles are railing against the use of vaccines. What do they suggest in its place, To go back to what killed Washington?

[Old Man]

23 minutes ago, GDShore said:

Absolutely correct, the era of modern medicine begins with the second world war, the introduction of major vaccination begins in the 50's millions (probably billions) have had their lives improved, or saved because of same. I lost 5 childhood friends to polio and 3 others permanently crippled by it, yet here we are in the 21 st. century and imbecilles are railing against the use of vaccines. What do they suggest in its place, To go back to what killed Washington?

 

Part of me fully supports their return to 17th-century medicine.  But we are veering off topic.

 

This being fantasy, I often think we underestimate the society-wide effects of even low levels of magical healing.  One pip of healing still nips that toothache, infected cut, or brain tumor in the bud. 

[GDShore]

You are right, that is a digression and I apologize.

[Scott Ruggels]

 The "No more dungeons" thing was why I had rules for Parlimentary government , campaigning and voting, and why I was making my own monsters. Homecrew everything, and it worked fine, until the famous screw up.

[GDShore]

I reread this thread today, Mr. Ruggels. What famous screwup?

[Ninja-Bear]

On 5/17/2023 at 11:21 AM, GDShore said:

You are right, that is a digression and I apologize.

No problem.

[Lord Liaden]

Regarding the Strength of the average medieval peasant, I'll just point out that the average medieval peasant was significantly shorter than the average person is today.

[Duke Bushido]

On 5/16/2023 at 1:48 AM, Old Man said:

 

IIRC 4th ed had rules for weapon reach; the short weapon had -1 OCV until it scored a hit, and then the long weapon had the -1 OCV until its wielder backed up.  Something like that.  Idk if it's in later editions.

 

Thank you, Sir!

 

I had completely forgotten that!

 

 

 

 

 

On 5/16/2023 at 2:34 PM, Scott Ruggels said:

Dungeon? I’m Fantasy Hero? What is this of which you speak? This isn’t D&D!!😁. Most of our adventures were outdoors in the weather. 

 

 

Ditto. 

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

14 hours ago, GDShore said:

I reread this thread today, Mr. Ruggels. What famous screwup?

Killing a beloved NPC to demonstrate an antagonists willingness to escalate and encounter, that caused the players to object, and a 20 year old FH campaign collapsed.  

[Christopher R Taylor]

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the short weapon had -1 OCV until it scored a hit, and then the long weapon had the -1 OCV until its wielder backed up.  Something like that.  Idk if it's in later editions.

 

 

Probably not, as more research and practical experimentation goes on, people are finding that a lot of the "obvious" drawbacks of large weapons aren't so true in the end.  You can always choke up on a polearm, and spears in particular are thrusting weapons so close combat and clutter won't tend to matter as much.

[GDShore]

Ah yes, killing off an NPC. I did not even imagine that the death of a nobody character could be so devastating. In a campaign in the '80s I had a NPC that from the start I planned to knock and open a whole new avenue for the campaign, my crew blew up 3 of them left saying her death was "cruel and arbitrary". At that point I had already killed off 8 or 9 NPC's. Sometimes people can develop the strangest attachments, after that I tried to be more perceptive about such occurences. (at this point I suspect that any GM who has run games for a whileee has a similar story)

[pawsplay]

Medieval peasants had physically demanding lives, but they also didn't get as much meat. I don't know that a peasant was any stronger than a modern truck driver or fast food worker.

Maybe the Min Str for the spear is off... but it's entirely an assumption that peasants are running around with weapons they have matching STR for. People have historically probably used lots of weapons they took the -1 penalty for. A spear is cheap, durable, and most importantly, offers Reach. Nobody but a professional warrior is going to go into battle intending to use something like an axe, club, or sword.