Which is Better, Figured Characteristics or No Figured Characteristics?

[Gauntlet]

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

And as has been noted, well, if the figured stats you'd get from 5E are a decent starting point, where's the problem???

 

No problem, just gives us all a great excuse to argue. 🙃

[Ninja-Bear]

Well lets not forget that most (if not all) official characters in 6th have bought up their OMCV. Which once you realize that this is only to represent what they had for free in Pre-6th. What makes that worse is that unless you need to use OMCV, such as a Mentalist, in 6th you are really just spending pkints on something useless.

[Hugh Neilson]

13 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

It’s a lot easier to boost up a few stats than to go over all the stats trying to figure out what is appropriate for your concept. 

 

How do you figure out which, if any, are the few stats you want to boost up without assessing all of them from the perspective of your concept?

 

13 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

5th edition has 17 stats including 3 movement stats.  6th edition has 20 stats including 3 movement stats.   6th edition also eliminated COM so it actually has 4 additional stats.  

 

Pre-6e, a lot of lower DEX characters looked to skill levels because their CVs would not be competitive in the campaign.  Someone had to create the 5 point DCV level because there was no way to directly buy up DCV.  I don't think that was less complicated than having OCV and DCV as separate stats, figured or not.  Having them as stats would have highlighted just how big a bargain DEX was.

 

13 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

In 5th edition I can buy up STR and CON to 25 and DEX to 20.  That gives me 5 PD & ED, 3 SDPD 10 REC 50 END and 36 STUN. I may or may not need to increase the PD & ED depending on what powers the character has.  I will probably want to buy up the SPD, but other than that it is not a bad starting character.   I don’t have to worry about my CV because those are based on DEX and under 5th edition are not really stats but are still calculated.  In 6th edition if I buy the same base stats, I still need to figure out my OCV, DCV PD, ED, SPD, REC, END, and STUN.  I can probably leave the OMCV & DMCV at base value, but all the rest need to be bought up.  Having to figure out 5-8 extra stats is not that complicated but is still more work. 

 

You are clearly arguing for retaining some form of Figured stats.  Would you suggest repricing of the stats to remove the bargain pricing of STR, CON and DEX, make selling back more than one Figured balanced and allow characters who buy up Figured rather than the primary stat to be point-efficient?

 

Like unclevlad, I question your starting stats.  This suggests that every Super should be able to bench press a Buick. Should the Human Torch have a 25 STR? That's in the realm of Legendary strength - some would asset that Batman and Captain America (as "peak humans") should not be up there in the Legendary realm.  Others would suggest maybe it's OK for Cap (due to the Serum) and/or Bats (with that obsessive training), but not for Nightwing or Hawkeye. STR was often bought higher than "concept" because the figured stats made it more cost-effective to do so.

 

CON is already Legendary for most Supers, necessitated by defense limits and the STUN mechanic. Maybe the main purpose of CON should be resistance to being stunned, not buying up several other stats at a discount.

 

DEX being linked to CV meant that peak human dexterity was the entry point for any Super.  If you wanted to be good at combat, you needed a higher DEX (or stupidly expensive combat skill levels as a substitute).  Again, the Batman conundrum.  If Bats has a 30 DEX (and so do Hawkeye, Green Arrow, Black Widow, Daredevil and so on), SpiderMan and Nightcrawler should be around 45, as they are much more agile than even the highest-trained human. ninja-bear notes mCVs below. I think the biggest failing of character updates in 6e was not dropping a lot of DEXes where the character wasn't super-agile by concept, but rather just needed DEX to have a competitive DCV.  DEX could then range like STR, with some characters right down at a 10. How many characters with a 20 - 26 DEX have any comment in their writeups about their peak human to legendary agility?

 

If my character is a normal person with powers, and I stat him out with an above-average STR, CON and DEX of, say, 13, 13 and 14, and assume those Figured are good enough (maybe invest 6 points and round SPD up to 3) I will have a very disappointing character who will rarely move, and be Stunned when most phases come up.  But so what, he can't hit anyway.

 

Setting OCV and DCV ranges and benchmarks is no harder than setting ranges and benchmarks for anything else in the game.

 

Many other games handle this by providing no way, or very limited options, to boost "secondary characteristics", but they are still there.  D&D 3e has AC, attack bonus (melee and range), damage bonus, hit point bonus, 3 saving throw bonuses, extra skills, skill bonuses, spell DC bonuses and so on. Having them all derived from 6 stats isn't the end of the story - you can buy some aspects up with Feats.  And many players chafe against the limits on their ability to customize a character - Hero's core strength.

 

We could limit Hero to only a few Characteristics with a quick nomenclature change, moving resistance to being Stunned, bonuses to CV, increased defenses, durability (higher STUN), Tirelessness (higher END), bouncing back (higher REC) and extra actions (higher SPD) to powers and skills.  We already have rules for increased skill and perception bonuses (levels),  initiative (lightning reflexes), HTH damage (Hand Attack) and PRE attacks and defense outside the "Characteristics" section.  Just move all the Figured there and suddenly we have less characteristics.  

 

But we really don't - just like including running, swimming and leaping as "powers" doesn't prevent you from calling them characteristics.

 

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Well lets not forget that most (if not all) official characters in 6th have bought up their OMCV. Which once you realize that this is only to represent what they had for free in Pre-6th. What makes that worse is that unless you need to use OMCV, such as a Mentalist, in 6th you are really just spending pkints on something useless.

 

With 20/20 hindsight, I think oMCV and dMCV should have started at zero - normal people have no skill in either. That would eliminate the "I have no mental powers, so I should sell back mOCV" issue.  How is a person with no mental powers somehow "deficient" if they have lower mOCV?

[LoneWolf]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

You are clearly arguing for retaining some form of Figured stats.  Would you suggest repricing of the stats to remove the bargain pricing of STR, CON and DEX, make selling back more than one Figured balanced and allow characters who buy up Figured rather than the primary stat to be point-efficient?

 

I am actually favoring getting rid of figured stats.  My post was more about reasons why people seem to want to keep them.  Figured stats make it easier and quicker to write up a character, but that does not mean the character is better.  In my opinion getting rid of figured stats makes for better characters because now you don’t have the incentive to purchase primary stats higher than they really need to. My example of 25 STR & CON was an attempt to illustrate that.  

 

Not all characters need huge amounts of END or high REC. Having character with a different OCV and DCV allows for better defining of their fighting styles.  Now if someone wants to be good overall in combat, they don’t need to be an Olympic gymnast.  
 

[unclevlad]

Quote

Like unclevlad, I question your starting stats.  This suggests that every Super should be able to bench press a Buick. Should the Human Torch have a 25 STR? That's in the realm of Legendary strength - some would asset that Batman and Captain America (as "peak humans") should not be up there in the Legendary realm.  Others would suggest maybe it's OK for Cap (due to the Serum) and/or Bats (with that obsessive training), but not for Nightwing or Hawkeye. STR was often bought higher than "concept" because the figured stats made it more cost-effective to do so.
<snip>
DEX being linked to CV meant that peak human dexterity was the entry point for any Super.  If you wanted to be good at combat, you needed a higher DEX (or stupidly expensive combat skill levels as a substitute).  Again, the Batman conundrum.  If Bats has a 30 DEX (and so do Hawkeye, Green Arrow, Black Widow, Daredevil and so on), SpiderMan and Nightcrawler should be around 45, as they are much more agile than even the highest-trained human. ninja-bear notes mCVs below. I think the biggest failing of character updates in 6e was not dropping a lot of DEXes where the character wasn't super-agile by concept, but rather just needed DEX to have a competitive DCV.  DEX could then range like STR, with some characters right down at a 10. How many characters with a 20 - 26 DEX have any comment in their writeups about their peak human to legendary agility?

 

If I'm building in 5E, it's hard to resist buying at least a 23 DEX, since it's a triple point anyway.  The economy of figured stats is simply too good.  But CSLs with all HTH or all Ranged are actually cheaper in 5E;  they're 5 points per.  In 6E, they're 8 points per.  The +1 to any non-mental combat is 10 in 6E;  in 5E, it's 8, and it can be used as DECV.  Not quite as expensive as you're suggesting...but clearly, figured stats, and especially DEX buying base OCV and DCV, is the *massively* cheaper and more effective approach.  

 

Most interpretations for Batman that I've seen suggest normal characteristic maxes, a full suite of martial maneuvers, 2-3 overall skill levels, and more CSLs on top of that.  But note that even a 20 STR is lifting 400 kilos, or almost 900 pounds.  That's the world record for a 200 pound man executing a deadlift, which looks to fit the definition of Lift in 6E.  (The really big lifters, 300+ pounds, isn't that much higher, it's about 470 kilos.)

 

A problem with DEX, and INT, is that it's 5 points to get +1.  It doesn't *feel* like the 23 is greatly more agile, and the rules only say it's a difference of +1 on the roll.  Diminishing returns is also kicking in;  the 18 is a 13- roll, 84%.  The 23 is a 14-, or 91%.  Not that much of an improvement.  So, you tend to be looking at bigger margins, to justify the DEX mongering types like Beast, being able to do amazing things.  (Of course, we also go back to the separation between comics and RPGs.  The DEX mongers aren't hit because the writers refuse to have them hit.)

 

19 minutes ago, LoneWolf said:

Not all characters need huge amounts of END or high REC.
 

 

The only types where this is true would be:

a)  non-combat types

b)  EXTREME range types...preferably mentalists, or blasters with at least Half Range Mods.  Oh, and both of these probably will need lots of Reduced END, at least to last.  

 

Note that this is mostly for supers.  For SPD 3 combats, well, OK.  It won't matter as much.  If the character is going to be hit twice per turn, then END and REC *matter*.  Yes, I'm from a more lethal school...do not remain helpless (which KO'd is) for long, or you are dead, AND combats in the SPD 5-6 range.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

7 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

If I'm building in 5E, it's hard to resist buying at least a 23 DEX, since it's a triple point anyway.  The economy of figured stats is simply too good.  But CSLs with all HTH or all Ranged are actually cheaper in 5E;  they're 5 points per.  In 6E, they're 8 points per.  The +1 to any non-mental combat is 10 in 6E;  in 5E, it's 8, and it can be used as DECV.  Not quite as expensive as you're suggesting...but clearly, figured stats, and especially DEX buying base OCV and DCV, is the *massively* cheaper and more effective approach.  

 

Largely why 23  became "default DEX".  That CSL with all HTH OR Range does not help Batman's martial arts and batarangs.  Even if it did, for 6 points (9 CP for +3 DEX - 3 CP saved on SPD), you get +1 OCV and +1 DCV. 5 points to have one at a time, that drops whenever you don't have a zero phase action to use them, is not comparable pricing.

 

8 points compared to 10 points for +1 OCV and +1 DCV isn't exactly a bargain either.

 

7 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Most interpretations for Batman that I've seen suggest normal characteristic maxes, a full suite of martial maneuvers, 2-3 overall skill levels, and more CSLs on top of that.  But note that even a 20 STR is lifting 400 kilos, or almost 900 pounds.  That's the world record for a 200 pound man executing a deadlift, which looks to fit the definition of Lift in 6E.  (The really big lifters, 300+ pounds, isn't that much higher, it's about 470 kilos.)

 

A problem with DEX, and INT, is that it's 5 points to get +1.  It doesn't *feel* like the 23 is greatly more agile, and the rules only say it's a difference of +1 on the roll.  Diminishing returns is also kicking in;  the 18 is a 13- roll, 84%.  The 23 is a 14-, or 91%.  Not that much of an improvement.  So, you tend to be looking at bigger margins, to justify the DEX mongering types like Beast, being able to do amazing things.  (Of course, we also go back to the separation between comics and RPGs.  The DEX mongers aren't hit because the writers refuse to have them hit.)

 

The Mayfair DC game used the Hero logarithmic scale, but every +1 was a doubling.  2 points was a Normal.  Not a lot of granularity for those normals, but then having variations in Hero make little difference to actual play, so the granularity here is largely an illusion.

 

The designer notes commented on Batman having a 5 STR because, while it could put his maximum lift a bit unrealistically high, it wasn't vastly out of human capability, and -well - He's Batman!

 

In a game, we likely don't allow a DCV so high that credible opponents need to roll a 3 to hit.

 

7 hours ago, unclevlad said:

The only types where this is true would be:

a)  non-combat types

b)  EXTREME range types...preferably mentalists, or blasters with at least Half Range Mods.  Oh, and both of these probably will need lots of Reduced END, at least to last.  

 

Note that this is mostly for supers.  For SPD 3 combats, well, OK.  It won't matter as much.  If the character is going to be hit twice per turn, then END and REC *matter*.  Yes, I'm from a more lethal school...do not remain helpless (which KO'd is) for long, or you are dead, AND combats in the SPD 5-6 range.

 

 

 

Martial Artists don't need huge END.  Reduced END is an option to massive END and REC (and, at least pre-6e, more cost effective - although recall that 1e was +1/4 for each halving, so 9 - 16 DCs was +1 1/4 to cost no END).

 

[assault]

7 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Most interpretations for Batman that I've seen suggest normal characteristic maxes, a full suite of martial maneuvers, 2-3 overall skill levels, and more CSLs on top of that. 

 

I find these builds annoying.

Batman is stronger, faster and tougher than most other supers, not weaker, slower and less tough. Those that are better than him in those areas are generally the ones that are super-strong, super fast and super tough.

That's the source material, generally speaking. There are exceptions, obviously.

This is why it is a good thing that the Normal Characteristic Maxima Disadvantage was dropped. It encourages dumb builds, or ones that circumvent it, meaning it's not actually a Disadvantage.

2e and 3e Champions had the "Reasonable Characters" section, which concisely laid out characteristic ranges that work for many (not all) superhero games. If players followed them, their characters were a lot less likely to suck in play. Something like that would be useful for 6e, or a notional 7e.

[dmjalund]

If Batman is stronger than you, then you DON’T have super strength. (A lot of supers don’t) 

for instance Aquaman is stronger than Batman.

[assault]

53 minutes ago, dmjalund said:

If Batman is stronger than you, then you DON’T have super strength. (A lot of supers don’t) 

for instance Aquaman is stronger than Batman.

 

Exactly.

 

Likewise for his Dex,Spd and Con.

[Hugh Neilson]

I agree with ditching NCM.  However, when the game sets 21-30 as "legendary" and 20 as "peak normal", I'd expect Batman to be in the 20 range.  And he should be stronger than the Flash, Green Lantern and Green Arrow.  Any character without "beyond human normal" strength.  He should be more agile and faster than GL, GA, Aquaman and Cyborg. DEX was the big killer for "trained normal" characters.  His SPD should be at or above any character who is not a speedster or otherwise hyperfast.

 

The problem is created by "standard Supers" needing to be above "peak human" (not just "average human") to be remotely competitive.

[LoneWolf]

I would put Batman at about 25 STR, 23 DEX and 5 SPD.  In the group I game with we try and keep the DEX and SPD down unless the character is supposed to be superhuman.   In our games most superhero are a 4 SPD and a speedster is 6 SPD with a really fast character having a 7.  

[Scott Ruggels]

Figured is better, precisely because of the cookie cutter effect. It makes sure that the characters are within the guidelines, and not too far apart from each other.  The other problem I have, is that in fifth, and before the point system was economic, and in sixth, its more like taxes.  I prefer the looser accounting and bargain hunting from the earlier editions. In Fantasy Hero the Package deals made character creation a lot quicker, where one would just copy down a stack of package deals, and add a few items outside the deals for flavor. Character creation demands  software to create the charactersm now, It is nigh unto impossible if you have poor math skills like me.

[assault]

5 hours ago, LoneWolf said:

I would put Batman at about 25 STR, 23 DEX and 5 SPD.  In the group I game with we try and keep the DEX and SPD down unless the character is supposed to be superhuman.   In our games most superhero are a 4 SPD and a speedster is 6 SPD with a really fast character having a 7.  

I tend to go with 20-23 Dex and 5 Spd as typical, with Batman at 26 and 6, and speedsters and the like at 7. Pretty much the suggested levels.

These are for starting characters. I discourage subsequent inflation beyond these levels.

[Doc Democracy]

12 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Character creation demands  software to create the charactersm now, It is nigh unto impossible if you have poor math skills like me.

 

This is fake news.  Honestly.  Character creation is no more difficult now than it was in previous editions, it just has a bigger budget. Especially in Fantasy HERO.

 

Package Deals still exist, previous package deals are pretty much compatible with 6th edition.

 

It bears repeating, 6th edition is no more complex than previous editions.  In fact, I would say that 6th edition is less complex as it does not have all the formulae for figured characteristics and if you raise or lower a characteristic, only that characteristic changes.  If you like the figured ratios, you can work them out and buy ED/PD/SPD/REC/STUN/END to those numbers.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Doc Democracy

[Christopher R Taylor]

The way I see it, Normal Characteristic Maxima work for some kinds of games, but rarely for Champions.  If you want a really gritty low-end street campaign, I could see it but normally it doesn't make sense.  In Heroic games its usually more reasonable, but there are a lot of larger-than-life heroic characters like Conan, Doc Savage, Tarzan, etc.

[Grailknight]

Normal Characteristic Maxima works fine for those 7-10 DC street level games. The fast 5 SPD people don't take it but was pretty common on the 4 SPD characters. That said, I found it more useful as a delineator for several house rules around the interaction between supers and NPC's. 

[assault]

10 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

In Heroic games its usually more reasonable, but there are a lot of larger-than-life heroic characters like Conan, Doc Savage, Tarzan, etc.

 

True. Such characters aren't really any different from Batman and his ilk, and can be used like them in superheroic games.

I wonder if there is any point to using different rules for them in Heroic games. Lower point totals might make enough of a difference. The temptation to build them in an unbalanced way might be a problem.

No powers except for magic, and maybe some Talents...

 

Could work.

 

[unclevlad]

7 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

Figured is better, precisely because of the cookie cutter effect. It makes sure that the characters are within the guidelines, and not too far apart from each other.  The other problem I have, is that in fifth, and before the point system was economic, and in sixth, its more like taxes.  I prefer the looser accounting and bargain hunting from the earlier editions. In Fantasy Hero the Package deals made character creation a lot quicker, where one would just copy down a stack of package deals, and add a few items outside the deals for flavor. Character creation demands  software to create the charactersm now, It is nigh unto impossible if you have poor math skills like me.

 

So how do you derive the figured values when you have the poor math skills?

 

I don't have poor math skills...quite the opposite, in fact.  (780 Math SAT back in the day.)  That said, I built a spreadsheet to help build my characters using either 3rd or 4th Ed rules, back in the day...complete with MPs and ECs.  I don't think I built any VPPs back then.  ECs dynamically shifted based on min power cost.  It wasn't as connected as HD, but it did track the points spent, which was what I needed.  And now?  HD is cheap.  It catches many of the technical, niggling little gotchas...and lets me ignore them when I care to.  It lets me play the What If.... or What's the Best Way to.... games quickly.  (Like building a Blast to get the net DCs, active points, and END cost I want, by mixing END costs between the parts.  Or sometimes, comparing the pricing between a VPP and an MP, when the VPP is likely to be relatively specific.) 

 

I'd argue support software has *always* been useful...UNLESS all you're doing is combining some package deals, as you say.  That feels like using a 3D metal printer to make copies of keys...and nothing else. 

I will concede, tho:  the math complexity IS a problem.  It's just not a new one.

[Ninja-Bear]

10 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

This is fake news.  Honestly.  Character creation is no more difficult now than it was in previous editions, it just has a bigger budget. Especially in Fantasy HERO.

 

Package Deals still exist, previous package deals are pretty much compatible with 6th edition.

 

It bears repeating, 6th edition is no more complex than previous editions.  In fact, I would say that 6th edition is less complex as it does not have all the formulae for figured characteristics and if you raise or lower a characteristic, only that characteristic changes.  If you like the figured ratios, you can work them out and buy ED/PD/SPD/REC/STUN/END to those numbers.

I’m going to politely disagree. Yes, Pre-6th has the figured formulas however 6th has more characteristics to he aware of. Leap for example is now separate one and I’ve forgotten more than once to buy up. The Powers themselves have more options which is fine for a more finely tuned character however more options are still more options. Btw, I’m still  salty about TK needing permeable to affect liquids.

[Doc Democracy]

I don't consider any movement power, and leaping is one of those to be a characteristic. 

 

The mixing of abilities and skills and game mechanics, this represents drives my proposal to get rid of the non game mechanical stats.

 

Surely buying STR was not the only way you bought Leaping ability?  Surely you checked whether you had enough?  Surely that's no less complex than buying enough.

 

The permeability rule, I can understand but I can also understand how TK was widely abused by players and cost should follow utility.

[Ninja-Bear]

@Doc Democracy, let me show you some of my builds. Not only would you understand that “surely” is not even close to how I built things. But you might lose some Sanity if you figured out my logic. 😁

[Doc Democracy]

Then I guess complexity of the rules might not be the key issue!

[Hugh Neilson]

13 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

The way I see it, Normal Characteristic Maxima work for some kinds of games, but rarely for Champions.  If you want a really gritty low-end street campaign, I could see it but normally it doesn't make sense.  In Heroic games its usually more reasonable, but there are a lot of larger-than-life heroic characters like Conan, Doc Savage, Tarzan, etc.

 

I think having guidelines for "normal" characteristics is useful in itself.  The biggest issue that creates in Hero is that these were defined well after "standard Champions builds" were largely hardcoded into the milieu.  Once a slow Super is defined as DEX 18-20, SPD 4; average is 23 - 26 DEX, SPD 5-6, fast is 29-30 DEX, 6-7 SPD and really fast is 32-35 DEX and 7+ SPD, it's a little late to say "oh, and normal humans generally cap out at DEX 20/SPD 4".

 

Those larger than life characters have had appearances in the comics, and they are not "slow super" by comparison.

 

There's also a difference between having expectations of "normal humans" and giving points out for specific spending.

 

13 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Normal Characteristic Maxima works fine for those 7-10 DC street level games. The fast 5 SPD people don't take it but was pretty common on the 4 SPD characters. That said, I found it more useful as a delineator for several house rules around the interaction between supers and NPC's. 

 

Setting those as the characteristic expectations is one thing.  Allowing 20 points of disadvantages for "has most or all characteristics within this range" makes no sense to me.  All it means is, if your concept keeps you in this range, you take this disadvantage because you already decided to have stats that allow it. If not, you don't take the disadvantage.  I would not allow 10 points for "no mental powers" or 5 points for "can't buy flight, gliding or teleport".  Why would I allow 20 points for "character is based on powers and skills instead of characteristics?".  Especially when we tack on "characteristics bought with limitations are powers and not restricted by NCM".

 

When we define peak humans as Primaries top off at 20, rarely a bit higher, and SPD caps at 4, maybe a rare 5, then allow Batman as a "highly trained normal" with STR 25, CON 23, DEX 26-29 and SPD 6-7, as a normal human, then we haven't really defined "normal humans" as fitting into those normal ranges.  We've also set the bar a lot higher to be "superhuman". 

 

When Green Lantern (normal guy with Power RIng) and the like have to have DEX 23-26 and SPD 5-6, we've defined that normal humans don't really cap out at 20/4 - these characters are not just "not superhuman" in the comics - they are not even "exceptional human" in those stats.  Batman, Tarzan, Conan  and Doc Savage are better - they're "exceptional/peak human".

Edited August 10, 2023 by Hugh Neilson

[Grailknight]

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Setting those as the characteristic expectations is one thing.  Allowing 20 points of disadvantages for "has most or all characteristics within this range" makes no sense to me.  All it means is, if your concept keeps you in this range, you take this disadvantage because you already decided to have stats that allow it. If not, you don't take the disadvantage.  I would not allow 10 points for "no mental powers" or 5 points for "can't buy flight, gliding or teleport".  Why would I allow 20 points for "character is based on powers and skills instead of characteristics?".  Especially when we tack on "characteristics bought with limitations are powers and not restricted by NCM".

 The two campaigns that I allowed NCM as a Disadvantage had house rules that made it a true liability even if you stayed within the Characteristics. They were low level Supers campaigns which featured some distrust of Vigilantes, mild Anti-Super Prejudice and shadowy government organizations of which some but not all were corrupt.

 

1- Characteristics as Powers were not allowed as exceptions. You could be stronger than 20 STR with Density Increase or Growth but any other method paid double. 

 

2- Taking full NCM stopped you from buying Martial Arts DC's. It gave those without NCM, an effective level of Damage Negation (This was pre-6th so we gave +4 DEF.) against you and you did normal damage to objects designated as real world. Not taking NCM had a 10 point "Detects as a Super" distinctive feature built in to balance the negation which didn't count towards your total and couldn't be bought off normally. Lacking NCM also gave 1.5x damage vs real world objects which was the root of the prejudice problem.

 

So, it depends on the campaign assumptions, I kept some of these principals even after 6th came about. They help Supers be superior to Normals without going too far beyond 12 DC as base. YMMV.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Grailknight

[Ninja-Bear]

3 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

Then I guess complexity of the rules might not be the key issue!

That could be! 😂