Organized Crime in CU

[SirViss]

Hey guys,

 

I just want to hear some of your thought on a question that I have been posing to myself, ever since one of my players took the Mafia as a hunted:

 

In a world where VIPER exist, how do you see the "normal" crime syndicates existing?

 

The main reason I mention VIPER is because that organization seems to fill the niches that would be typically taken by the Mafia. This is according to the VIPER: CotS book. Money-laundering, white-collar crimes, smuggling, etc. How could the Mafia, Yakuza, Triads, etc, compete, concidering the resources (both in manpower, and tech) that VIPER has access to.

 

I'll let the debate begin, and put some of my ideas and observations down later.

[Hermit]

Well, one thing I've been doing is letting organized crime bosses either hire super powered 'muscle' , or even have power themselves. It's still a rarity, but it seems very in genre; besides, it makes sense to me. Super powered guys would have an edge, and rise to the top a bit faster than competition. So if "Mr Big" happens to be a pocket brick/martial artist, it's that much more dramatic with the heroes get evidence or force his back to the wall.

[Chuckg]

I see organized crime as local, scattered, and dreaming about the good old days before VIPER ran them out of half of the cities in the US.

 

OTOH, VIPER would never entirely eliminate organized crime. Got to give the various law enforcement Organized Crime Bureaus somebody else besides VIPER to distract them, after all...

 

The Mafia, I see VIPER turning into a bunch of has-beens.

 

The Triads, OTOH, base their power in a section of the world where *VIPER* is the outside trying to make it in, so I see them at nearly full strength. And with wuxia kung-fu and Chinese sorcery to make up for the lack of metas, as well as discreet paychecks to everybody from Mechassassin to the Steel Commando.

[Hermit]

One can also see the Organzitia seeking to best VIPER on their own terms, by purchasing help from ARGENT. Can you say Turf War High Tech style?

[Gary]

Organized crime leaders would have to have super powers or high tech to compete. It'd be way too easy for superheroes or supervillains or viper or demon or other groups to take them down otherwise.

 

It'd be Social Darwinism at its worst with the Superpowered and/or high tech crimelords climbing over the bodies of their non-powered rivals to the top.

[Chuckg]

Originally posted by Hermit

One can also see the Organzitia seeking to best VIPER on their own terms, by purchasing help from ARGENT. Can you say Turf War High Tech style?

 

"My folks taught me never to mess with a mother. Especially not Mother Nature, Mother Earth, or mother-f****** Ukrainians!!!"

 

One of the better lines from 'The Italian Job' remake.

[winterhawk]

I run the Mob in my campaign just opposite of Hermit. They have a strict 'no freaks' rule for their mechanics. Its bad enough when normal underlings are after your job, much less ones that you can't whack when they get to be a problem. If a special situation ie. a mask takes interest in their operations, they might hire a superhuman 'independent contractor' to handle the problem. The nice thing about groups like VIPER is that cops and heroes have a tendancy to go after 'freaks in spandex with ray guns' rather than the garden variety mobster. My Mob lays low, collects their money and stays out of costumed affairs. "It's the Chicago way."

 

The Russian Mob, with their repuatation for intelligence, brutality and criminal creativity, I handle differently. They're the guys who buy energy weapons from ARGENT and hire former Soviet 'heroes' (whom the former Republic can no longer afford to pay) to take care of the dirty work.

[Highwayman]

Originally posted by winterhawk

I run the Mob in my campaign just opposite of Hermit. They have a strict 'no freaks' rule for their mechanics. Its bad enough when normal underlings are after your job, much less ones that you can't whack when they get to be a problem. If a special situation ie. a mask takes interest in their operations, they might hire a superhuman 'independent contractor' to handle the problem. The nice thing about groups like VIPER is that cops and heroes have a tendancy to go after 'freaks in spandex with ray guns' rather than the garden variety mobster. My Mob lays low, collects their money and stays out of costumed affairs. "It's the Chicago way."

 

Makes sense. Plus, for VIPER extortion and drug smuggling are just what they do to raise money for the latest doomsday device. For the Mob, it's all they do. I see VIPER going for the high profit, quick money rackets, while the Mob can take lower profile stuff and still make a profit because they're specialized.

 

Besides, all those Hudson City crimefighters need something to do.

 

The Russian Mob, with their repuatation for intelligence, brutality and criminal creativity, I handle differently. They're the guys who buy energy weapons from ARGENT and hire former Soviet 'heroes' (whom the former Republic can no longer afford to pay) to take care of the dirty work. [/b]

 

I also think the VIPER sourcebook mentions that VIPER was a bit distracted during the fall of the Soviet Union and missed the opportunity to move in. Makes sense the Organzitia would have filled in the vacuum. It also means there's likely one hell of a turf war going on.

 

Asian organized crime would probably fall into both catagories. Some gangs would have wirefightin' warriors and cyberninjas battling on the streets, while the others quietly go about their business.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by winterhawk

I run the Mob in my campaign just opposite of Hermit. They have a strict 'no freaks' rule for their mechanics.

 

Well, I did say it was still a 'rarity'

[Metaphysician]

Well, in our campaign, the local Tong enforces deals with demonic-style contracts. . .

[Chuckg]

That's because the local tong boss appears to have hired what might as well be Wolfram & Hart to be his law firm...

[Lord Liaden]

To some extent the distinction between OC and superterrorist groups like VIPER in my campaign is similar to what Winterhawk describes: the four-color baddies are high-profile, while the Mafia and the like operate more discreetly. However, I often have the Mafia and VIPER in a profitable "business partnership." The Mob has an extensive organization with lots of expertise in low-profile criminal activities, and it's often more profitable for VIPER to leave the running of those operations to them and to take a cut of the profits. In return the Mob can call on VIPER forces when necessary to deal with powerful pests like superheroes. Much less messy than wasteful turf wars that attract unwanted attention.

 

Of course, you could always just follow the advice at the start of the new VIPER sourcebook: How do you explain the apparent inconsistency? Who cares, it's a comic book!

[Redmenace]

Various organized crime syndicates play a big part of my campaign. Viper is in there as well but they operate on a different level.

 

Viper is driven towards world domination. They involve themselves with criminal enterprise but only to further the real goal. We have them consolidating power by controlling third world countries from behind puppet dictators, running conventional and super tech weapons, blackmail, drug running and cyber crime. They do operate in the US but they prefer a strata somewhat above the street level of the Mafia. Why blackmail a business man when you can blackmail the entire board of directors of a Fortune 500 company?

 

The Mobs run more day to day operations and are largely criminal corporations, they mostly want the money. The Mob still exists because they work as an ally to Viper, distributing products, arranging for the buyers and sellers to get together, etc.

 

As with most superhero comics, the United States is the superhuman capitol of the planet. Viper simply offered to aid the U.S. syndicates in ridding the world of a mutual enemy.

 

 

[Supreme Serpent]

In the real world, with the mafia, yakuza, etc around, how do local criminals, gangs etc exist? I don't think that just because there's a big boy on the block that that would automatically drive everyone else out of business.

 

As the big boy, VIPER is much more the target of law enforcement and superheroes. While they are being attacked by UNTIL, PRIMUS, and seventeen superteams, and themselves actively hunting 65 or so supers at any given point, how much attention can they really put toward "the competition"?

 

Other orgs may have a relationship with VIPER. Maybe the mobs pay a small percentage to VIPER to be left alone, and they sometimes make other business deals when convenient. VIPER also keeps an eye on these groups, viewing them as "farm teams" - recruiting criminals from their ranks into VIPER. Or perhaps the connections are even deeper - maybe the head Oyabun of the Yakuza, etc is on the Council of Thirty?

 

Perhaps the mid-level orgs recognize the threat of VIPER and have agreements with each other to defend against them? They recognize that if one of them gets swallowed by VIPER, any of them could be next. VIPER makes a move on, say, the Mafia, then VIPER would find itself fighting the Mafia, the Triads, the Yakuza, the Columbians, etc. all at once. After a few times of this, VIPER has decided that it's not worth the trouble.

 

VIPER is huge, but can't be everywhere, or do everything. Crime is unfortunately just too big to be effectively controlled by one group, and these other orgs survive and flourish by filling in the gaps VIPER leaves, and doing lots of smaller crimes VIPER would not bother with.

 

They could also, as others have mentioned, have special weapons and enforcers of their own. Kingpin in Marvel had a whole series of them, as did some of his rivals, who were sometimes powered themselves. Hobgoblin, Jack O'Lantern, Hammerhead, Silvermane, Bullseye, etc. all made crime interesting in New York without ever seeing one Hydra agent. (Kingpin also tried to take over Hydra himself at one point, but that's a different matter.)

[assault]

In the first description of VIPER in 1st Ed Champions, they were a bunch of rent-a-thugs with ambitions for taking over the underworld in the future.

 

In the 4th Edition, they were moving in on rival mobs.

 

While neither of these is theoretically relevant to the 5th Ed universe, it suggests that the Master Plan has been in operation for a couple of decades now...

 

To what extent have they taken over organised crime? To the extent that the heroes have stopped them!

 

And yes, some mobs have had superpowered support of their own... Terror Inc probably kept VIPER of the back of the Colombians for a while, while the Triads, Tongs and Yakuza had their own sources of muscle. I'm sure there aren't too many snakes lining up to volunteer for the Hudson City Nest...

[Twilight]

That assumes the snakes in question get a choice in the matter Assault. I doubt VIPER would give them an option aside from, do what we say or die.

 

In my game it would depend on the circumstances. In one city the Nest might be close with orginized crime in an attempt to form an alliance, like I could see that happening in Millenium City for example due to the Combination and what not. The Mob there has a history of joining up with other crooks rather then engaging in destructive gang wars.

 

In Hudson City however, VIPER would be rebuilding and would face a very hostile Mob since the Mafiosi there can actually have a shot in heck of keeping them out.

 

Just my two cents.

[assault]

Originally posted by Twilight

That assumes the snakes in question get a choice in the matter Assault. I doubt VIPER would give them an option aside from, do what we say or die.

 

At the very least you would expect a whole bunch of string pulling going on. Anyone with contacts would be using to try to get cushy postings. In this case, not being sent to Hudson City...

 

Some VIPER agents are just cannon fodder. Others aren't. A few might even be important to the Secret Masters, or at least to a particular Nest Leader.

 

Even the others probably don't get pushed around too bluntly. After all, disgruntled agents have low morale and tend to fail more often.

 

Where possible, I'm sure preferences are taken into account, even though VIPER's needs take precedence. VIPER needs to use its people efficiently, just like any other organisation.

 

Incidentally, VIPER is highly suited to running organised crime operations. You put a snake in charge of a particular operation. He then recruits local talent to do the day to day work, and get arrested. If serious muscle is needed, a small team of VIPER gunmen are available, particularly to maintain discipline.

 

This is probably a good model for a fairly small, low profile Nest. The emphasis is on agents with enough brains to run low-level rackets, with only a few specialised gunmen. You would also want some "corrupters" to keep the heat off. This would keep the cash flowing, and wouldn't draw undue attention, since you wouldn't have hoards of guys running around in green and yellow jumpsuits.

 

You would have a nice steady cash flow to keep the guys upstairs happy, and your profits can be split between supporting your extravagant lifestyle and funding Project Arcturus. Oops. There is no such thing as Project Arcturus. This computer will self-destruct in five seconds...

[Twilight]

That's how I'd play them if I ran them in Hudson City. Actually, my VIPER agents there would be even sneakier. Bearing in mind I like to play VIPER as a major menace so there's not gonna be too much incompetence going on, the PCs will have to work hard in order to thwart the boys in Green.

 

The whole plan would start with them finding a base for use that local crimefighters don't know about. While that's going on, VIPER agents of Constrictor Division are moving throughout the city in order to get as much information on the Hudson City vigilantes as they can. Already Media Specialists are moving into position in order to spread anti vigilante propaganda.

 

Naturally the main VIPER agent will be making allies with local thugs, but mostly he'd start out gathering information on vigilantes and the criminals of Hudson City. In public of course he'd run a financial company or something, that's buying up all sorts of companys via the International Finance Bank. Once most of Hudson City's businesses are owned by him, he does a merger with Duchess Industries.

 

Gee I've really gotta get a game going.

[FenrisUlf]

First of all, I always thought that VIPER was more of a terrorist organization than organized crime (that is, they have mainly political goals -- i.e., conquer the world -- as compared to financial goals -- i.e., make lots of cash), so until now I just thought they moved in different circles. The Mob doesn't worry about Osama Bin Laden taking over 'Arabtown', after all.

 

Though the idea of a mobster's kid joining VIPER to spite his old man does have some appeal. Isn't that what they did with the Falconer & the Godfather abck in 4th ed. VIPER?

[Twilight]

Originally posted by FenrisUlf

First of all, I always thought that VIPER was more of a terrorist organization than organized crime (that is, they have mainly political goals -- i.e., conquer the world -- as compared to financial goals -- i.e., make lots of cash), so until now I just thought they moved in different circles. The Mob doesn't worry about Osama Bin Laden taking over 'Arabtown', after all.

 

Though the idea of a mobster's kid joining VIPER to spite his old man does have some appeal. Isn't that what they did with the Falconer & the Godfather abck in 4th ed. VIPER?

 

It wasn't the Godfather, it was the Grandfather ["Though due to international copyright laws it is not." "Still we should respect him as if he was the Godfather." "Though he is not."]. He joined VIPER, as far as I know, to become more powerful and to gain revenge on the Champions for nearly killing his son.

[SirViss]

Hello again guys,

 

Well, I said that I would post my comments later, but this is later than i thought I would. Reason is that my access to the internet was limited yesterday, but mostly it was because I was dependeing on my email account providing me with alerts. Thing is Hotmail decided that Hero Games would send me spam! (Bad Hotmail, BAD!) I thought this thread was dead...

 

Boy, was I wrong! Thanks, guys, for the response. Some great suggestions in there. Now, to some of my thoughts:

 

I'm fairly new at GMing, so I decided to mostly stick to CU as written. I have the Champions Universe and Millenium City

books, and now have VIPER and UNTIL also (Yippee!) So that it for were i get the background.

 

A few of you have made comments that VIPER is a terrorist organization, but you have to agree that a lot of their operations have an "organised crime" feel to them. And though I agree that VIPER can't control all crime in a city, there is bound to be some friction with other organizations. The Triads I see as having the least friction because they can restrict their operation to China Town or the like. In the case of the Russians, they could have "good" relations already with VIPER, since VIPER would probably be looking for more way to get their hooks into Russia itself. The Yakuza probably would have the greatest friction because of the history of what happened in Japan in the CU.

 

The one I have the most problems defining is "The Mob" of the US. Mostly the problems stems to the fact that they do just want to make money. It is a business for them. So, if there is friction, how would they (the Mob) generally handle it. They wouldn't want to take on VIPER directly, concidering the firepower than can be brought against them. So what kind of "edge" would they have to potentially make VIPER backdown if VIPER started muscling in (knowningly or unknowingly) on what the Mafia woud concider its turf.

 

Another thing I would like ideas on would be what COULD be bones of contention between any of the Mafias and VIPER. I see 2 in particular: political corruption and drugs. I could easily see more than one local gov official having to jump through several hoops until the Organizations decide who REALLY owns him... And as for drugs, the friction would be what kind of drugs, quality (too many death might scare of some marks), the actual smuggling, and then distribution. Any other ideas (or comments)?

 

Also, I can see the relations between organized crime and VIPER being determined localy. Personality of the local heads would be VERY important, especially concidering the people that seem to often gravitate to the head of Nests. The often have personalities that are... unique and may rub influencial criminals the wrong way...

 

And last, there is VIPER`s stated goal: to rule the World. I don't know how the Mafias feel about possibly runing business in a world dominated by VIPER. And there grandiose plans often disrupt business (GASP!) When a building is destroyed by that orbital Death Ray , the mobs might not be too pleased with the fact, since that was one of the places where they had been laundering millions of dollars...

 

I know this is a comic book world, so don't think too hard about logic, but I would like a veneer of sense to permeate my campaign...

[Twilight]

Well I still think Millenium City Mafiosi would work with VIPER rather then oppose them, it's how they managed to avoid most of the trouble and inditements that weakened and/or destoryed other mob families. Besides, after Destroyer blew up Detroit, thier orginizations are in a shambles and hooking up with VIPER makes more sense financially, especially since they can't take VIPER head on.

 

Of course in places where the Mob is stronger, that might not be the case. Hudson City Mafiosi would be very antagonistic towards VIPER since they'd have the upper hand in that situation, since at least three families could focus on the remains of the VIPER Nest [the Scatuccis and Torconnes being at war of course] and could probably expect help from the Yakuza as well since the emnity between the Yakuza and VIPER is well known.

 

In fact VIPER and the Hudson City Mob might not clash right away, since VIPER would likely be hashing out it's problems with the Yakuza. Of course in a place like Hudson City, you can never be sure of that sort of thing.

 

For some reason I think the Vibora Bay Mob is more concerned with DEMON or the Scarlet Circle then VIPER, but that strikes me as true with most mystic type places.

[winterhawk]

Originally posted by SirViss

So what kind of "edge" would they have to potentially make VIPER backdown if VIPER started muscling in (knowningly or unknowingly) on what the Mafia woud concider its turf.

 

The Mob's edge would be its low profile against the brightly colored VIPER. A smart boss would give VIPER enough rope to hang themselves with then drop a dime to the local hero team. The masks smash the operation, and the Mob moves in to retake the criminal enterprise.

 

Originally posted by SirViss

Another thing I would like ideas on would be what COULD be bones of contention between any of the Mafias and VIPER. I see 2 in particular: political corruption and drugs. I could easily see more than one local gov official having to jump through several hoops until the Organizations decide who REALLY owns him... And as for drugs, the friction would be what kind of drugs, quality (too many death might scare of some marks), the actual smuggling, and then distribution. Any other ideas (or comments)?

 

Drugs are one thing I could see VIPER and The Mob forming an uneasy alliance over. VIPER would have the smuggling resources and money laundering operations and the Mob would run the day-to-day street operations. After all, who would want to score off of a guy in a green and gold uniform

[assault]

Originally posted by FenrisUlf

First of all, I always thought that VIPER was more of a terrorist organization than organized crime (that is, they have mainly political goals -- i.e., conquer the world -- as compared to financial goals -- i.e., make lots of cash), so until now I just thought they moved in different circles. The Mob doesn't worry about Osama Bin Laden taking over 'Arabtown', after all.

 

It was initially presented as trying to take over the world by taking over the underworld. It's initial step in that direction was to act as enforcers for other people, while collecting information on them.

 

It's presentation evolved from there. In scenarios printed in 4th Ed Champions it was explicitly moving in on the mob's territory.

 

So the organised crime element has always been there. This makes sense, incidentally - how else would it get money? It has no ideology*, so it can't really expect to raise money from donations.

 

True, the founders were wealthy, and there are legitimate corporations that could act as cash cows, but that would require there to be a way to move cash to individual Nests.

 

And, of course, it's unlikely that there would _be_ individual Nests of the kind we know.

 

Mind you, there was once an organisation that was more specialised in super-terrorism than VIPER. RAVEN was an outfit that appeared in a very early Champions adventure. It was more or less a conspiracy to support mad science projects aimed at taking over the world. It had VIPER style agents and all that, but their role was more oriented to supporting and protecting the projects.

 

Because it was so similar to VIPER, various writers jerked it around, making it first a VIPER front, and then a "street-level" conspiracy, and then eliminating it entirely from the 5th Ed universe. ARGENT, on the other hand, has at least some vague similarities to it, and could be seen as something of a successor.

 

I like ARGENT. It's undefined enough to be a handy universal plot device.

 

On the other hand, it might be nice to see a scenario involving it. But sooner or later, such things tend to be expanded into full descriptions of the organisation. The assumption seems to be that if a small part of the organisation looks like this, the whole organisation is like that. That means, anything that gets written now will be blown up into a huge bloated edifice in ten years time, regardless of the author's intention.

 

So, on balance, I would rather not see ARGENT defined "too much", and "at all" is very close to "too much".

 

And, by the way, I thought the 1st Ed version of VIPER was very cool. The later versions went off the rails, IMHO.

 

* Aside from snake cultism - but that's an eccentric minority interest at the best of times.

[freakboy6117]

not exactly on topic but I guess sort of appropriate how do you handle a front buisness for a organised crime family or players would that be a base with the money perk?