Who don't you miss?

[Scott Heine]

Originally posted by JmOz

I do not, nor will I miss 99% of Alien Enemies, sorry but that book I got for $2 and it SUCKED, I feel jipped at that price...

 

I'm sorry...

[BishopofB&W]

Originally posted by Scott Heine

I'm sorry...

 

There, there. Some of us wish the store had had Alien Enemies instead of European Enemies so we would have bought it instead before it went out of print.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

I won't miss The Geodesics. They were pathetic. Even compared to other 200 point characters, they were super wimpy. They wern't built well at all. RIP Geodesics.

 

Rob

[Guest cubist]

Originally posted by BishopofB&W

I've never had a chance to look through a copy of CotN, myself, but I've read other posts giving good reviews. What did you not like about it?

 

I suppose the background material for Canadian playing was okay, but since I live here anyways, it did me little good. As for the characters, I felt that they were extremely weak- some were direct Alpha Flight rip-offs (the one character that was like a watered down Sasquatch as an example) and the rest were hardly what you would call exciting, dynamic or powerful enough to protect Canada as its premiere super team, IMHO. I thought it blew that you had all these 400+ point heroes were running around in the states randomly but the best Canada's government could scrounge up were some starting level characters? Not to my liking, that... there were just other things about the book that just threw me as well, but since I got rid of my copy of the book I could not tell you what they were off the top of my head. BTW, Borealis should be brought back 5th ed. (hint hint Mr. Bennie)- he's the best canadian character in the CU and one of the best characters ever published by Hero IMHO as well.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by cubist

I suppose the background material for Canadian playing was okay, but since I live here anyways, it did me little good. As for the characters, I felt that they were extremely weak- some were direct Alpha Flight rip-offs (the one character that was like a watered down Sasquatch as an example) and the rest were hardly what you would call exciting, dynamic or powerful enough to protect Canada as its premiere super team, IMHO. I thought it blew that you had all these 400+ point heroes were running around in the states randomly but the best Canada's government could scrounge up were some starting level characters? Not to my liking, that... there were just other things about the book that just threw me as well, but since I got rid of my copy of the book I could not tell you what they were off the top of my head.

 

This seems to be a good example of differing tastes. I found most of the characters to be interesting, original, and with some innovative concepts. (IMO the only similarities between Snowmane and Sasquatch was super-strength [much less than Sasquatch] and fur.) Power level was too low for my tastes, but I found it pretty easy to add character points to raise DC, Defenses, DEX etc. until I was satisfied. I'd rather have characters with too few points than too many - I find it much easier to boost than to cut back.

 

Also, despite living all my life in Canada, I still learned a few things from the background in the book.

 

Originally posted by cubist

BTW, Borealis should be brought back 5th ed. (hint hint Mr. Bennie)- he's the best canadian character in the CU and one of the best characters ever published by Hero IMHO as well.

 

I agree with you, and you should be happy that Borealis is "official" in the new CU. I'm hoping he'll be included in Villains, Vandals and Vermin or Champions Worldwide.

[Boll Weevil]

I miss more than I don't

 

I've always been a picker & chooser anyway among characters in published works that the ones who didn't work for me never bothered me that much. Alien Enemies was not great but my campaign just wasn't ready for "first contact".

 

Terror Inc worked for me too. My campaigns have always featured higher-end heroes but Dr D was too much for my players to fight directly. TI was a pretty good fight at the time.

 

I miss more than I don't. Deathstroke and the Conquerors were my two villainous staples. Deathstroke was just nasty and the Conquerors were played as sympathetically as I could muster. For this reason I didn't mind Santuary although I rarely used it. My campaigns' heroes knew the Conquerors and, although they weren't exactly blood brothers, handling them took a bit more finesse than power. The heroes fought back-to-back with the Conquerors on many occasions.

Neither of these great teams were bungling fools as the later works suggested.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Scott Heine

I'm sorry...

 

FWIW, Scott, I used several characters from Alien Enemies. Because the Protectors and Helios existed as NPCs in one of my campaigns, I drew in the members of the Pantheon as well. I moved their origins to Europe, though, since that was their old stomping grounds; they became a premier European villain team.

 

The T'yak and Ecrotian War also worked its way into my games. And the two biggest nuisances in the book, the Champ and the Karg, impinged themselves on my poor PCs a couple of times.

[Steve Long]

I rather enjoyed AE myself. Among other things, it's always cool to me to see a book written and illustrated by the same person; you know the illos match what the author wanted to see exactly.

[TheEmerged]

RE: CotN. Personally, I loved the characters but found many of the writeups needed help. At the time my PC's were in the 500 point range, so needless to say I had some serious upgunning to do...

 

One, Ambrosia, has found her way into nearly every superheroic campaign I've run since purchasing CotN. I also used Leaper where most people used Foxbat. Snowmane was also a favorite -- I guess because I didn't see the alleged "one-off" nature. Personally I think the only thing they have in common is the fur... It also has some of the better "sympathetic villains" under 4th Edition (Booster is great fun if run right, IMO).

 

If nothing else, CotN should get a nod for having perhaps the coolest quote in a 4th Edition writeup

[Peregrine]

Re: Raven

 

I liked the revised Raven from Eye For An Eye, a 4th edition Dark Champions supplement. More conspiratorial than VIPER, with a decidedly conventional bent. A revision/update, in the vein of the new VIPER book, for the Dark Champions genre, would be excellent.

[Lord Liaden]

For me, part of the problem in stating who I liked/miss or don't is that I often take published characters and modify them, sometimes drastically. I can't always say that I would like to see the original versions perpetuated, but I'd sure like a spot left open for my versions.

 

Deathstroke is one prime example. I didn't care for or use the comical slant that Scott Heine gave the 4E incarnation of the team in the first edition of Champions Universe. (With respect to Scott, whose work I generally enjoy.) I instead expanded a concept from the original Deathstroke adventure which was barely developed, in which the group presented itself as a radical political movement: "crooks who are honest about it" in contrast to the "crooks" in the political establishment who masquerade as honest. That version of Deathstroke appeared repeatedly in my campaigns as a serious threat to the United States government. The inclusion of Scatterbrain and her publicist father in the update actually worked well with that concept - when you're seeking political power a PR expert and a mentalist with Invisible Mind Control certainly helps.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

If nothing else, CotN should get a nod for having perhaps the coolest quote in a 4th Edition writeup

 

Would that be the one from Myrmidon? If so I agree - it's one of my all-time favorites as well. Captain America couldn't have said it better himself.

[FenrisUlf]

There must be something wrong with me, as I liked the Asesinos so much I re-did them for 4th Ed. Might make good enemies for 'El Espectro', the Mexican pro wrestler in a silver mask, who got mentioned in CU. I especially liked the whole running plot shtick with Stalker, where we meet two of his 'spawn' in later books -- Lady Twilight in Horror Enemies, and Iggy the Vampire in Normals Unbound.

 

Liked Alien Enemies too, esp. the Thane -- and say, aren't they floating around in current continuity as the Arcane?

 

As for people they should never bring back -- yeah, the Geodesics were lame. The Conquerors I could do without, and there were some others I'm thankfully blanking on right now. More like one or two characters from a book (anyone remember Pointsetta, the South American neo-Nazi EP?) than a whole book.

[Rune]

Originally posted by TheEmerged

There are a couple of different ways you can take it, I use a combination of the two myself. Please note that I use the term "nova" from Aberrant to describe people with superpowers.

 

One is to have a place "of novas, by novas, for novas". Aberrant has a club or three, Sanctuary gives me an entire island It's a place where novas can be among their own kind without the sometimes arbitrary laws of the outside world. In a campaign with a more realistic approach to the registration act than the official Champions Universe, this might be more of a necessity than a playing field.

 

Second is for those campaigns with a more silver-aged theme than golden or bronze. To work properly it has to have some kind of authority figure -- in my own campaign I run Hyperion as a retired Superman figure, with an appropriate level. But as someone else mentioned, Sanctuary isn't for the Dr. Destroyer's and Fiacho's of the world -- it's for the Utility's, the CLOWN's, and similar cases of people who don't see themselves as villains.

 

 

If your hero believes that theft is wrong and worth stopping, it seems odd that he would spend his leisure time with known, unrepetent thieves. I can't imagine a superhero spending time with Utility, who would be busy categorizing all of his weaknesses.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by FenrisUlf

There must be something wrong with me, as I liked the Asesinos so much I re-did them for 4th Ed. Might make good enemies for 'El Espectro', the Mexican pro wrestler in a silver mask, who got mentioned in CU. I especially liked the whole running plot shtick with Stalker, where we meet two of his 'spawn' in later books -- Lady Twilight in Horror Enemies, and Iggy the Vampire in Normals Unbound.

 

Liked Alien Enemies too, esp. the Thane -- and say, aren't they floating around in current continuity as the Arcane?

 

As for people they should never bring back -- yeah, the Geodesics were lame. The Conquerors I could do without, and there were some others I'm thankfully blanking on right now. More like one or two characters from a book (anyone remember Pointsetta, the South American neo-Nazi EP?) than a whole book.

 

The Asesinos are in the 4th Ed BBB, aren't they?

 

I'll check when I get home, but I think the Thane are in the Terran Empire setting.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Rune

If your hero believes that theft is wrong and worth stopping, it seems odd that he would spend his leisure time with known, unrepetent thieves. I can't imagine a superhero spending time with Utility, who would be busy categorizing all of his weaknesses.

 

Tick: "We're not here to Stop Crime, we are here to FIGHT CRIME!"

 

I never got the Neutral Ground setup either. IMO, most of the characters wouldn't want to hang out at such a place. I could see a place where various mercenary characters hung out and some of them might have different views.

[Kristopher]

It depends on why the "neutral ground" exists. I can see a seedy third-world country where the dictator and the businesses will take anyone's money, but won't put up with supers tearing up the joint.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Kristopher

It depends on why the "neutral ground" exists. I can see a seedy third-world country where the dictator and the businesses will take anyone's money, but won't put up with supers tearing up the joint.

That I can see. The social club and resort were a bit off my reality map though.

[Supreme Serpent]

Originally posted by Kristopher

It depends on why the "neutral ground" exists. I can see a seedy third-world country where the dictator and the businesses will take anyone's money, but won't put up with supers tearing up the joint.

 

Of course, it might be amusing to see a seedy third-world dictator TRY to stop 30 or so supers who decide to "tear up the joint".

[lemming]

Originally posted by Supreme Serpent

Of course, it might be amusing to see a seedy third-world dictator TRY to stop 30 or so supers who decide to "tear up the joint".

I'd assume he'd have a cadre of supers of his own for this to work. Plus if the other supers not on his pay get an advantage for using this country, they'd rather not have anyone else piss in the pool.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Supreme Serpent

Of course, it might be amusing to see a seedy third-world dictator TRY to stop 30 or so supers who decide to "tear up the joint".

 

That's why said third-world dictator has deals cut with ARGENT or some such in order to get some serious anti-supers hardwear. Or maybe said third-world dictator is also an Omega-class uber-super himself.

 

Just brainstorming, so that might be full of holes.

 

[Supreme Serpent]

Kristopher, lemming:

 

Right - for a neutral ground setup to work, there has to be someone with the ability/power to keep the peace. The images commonly conjured up by "third-world dictator" normally don't inspire confidence in being able to control, say, the Ultimates if they get uppity. Someone like Doc Doom or Black Panther with their own, decidedly non-backward setups could pull it off, but I don't see Baby Doc Duvalier, for example, as being able to.

[Guest cubist]

This debate about Neutral Ground reminds me of an idea that I had and wrote up loosely some years back for Palladium systems- the Cosmic Joint, a transdimensional bar/cllub where all are welcome and can even get their drinks/refreshments for free for providing entertainment for the other patrons. The nature of the dimensional space is such that no offensive effects work, period! The owner is also selective about who he lets in, since he knows some, heroes and villains both, cannot be trusted to uphold the peace even in such a neutral setting, so he does not let theose who will cause trouble in or removes them the moment that they start anything.

[AnotherSkip]

that theme does get done every once in a while. the main problem I have with it is that it is kinda like a wish fulfillment type of place. I would rather base the whole thing in some fertile roleplayers dream than a real place.

[ChuckB]

The Sanctuary premise works out better in a bronze-modern age style supers setting.

 

Kind of relies on cynically-minded normals and paranormals and a little bit of a gray-area in the worlds of heroes and villains.

 

Sanctuary also works in a world where it is not uncommon for heroes and villains to work together (or stay out of each others way) when there's a greater danger present (Galactus , Kree-Skrull Wars , CRISISes , etc.).