What would you do with killer PCs

[NetNemesis316]

Let me give you a little background on my current campaign and some of the problems I have been having and see how you guys and gals would handle it.

 

I have a fairly new superteam based in the new Millenium city. Some of the players have been playing Champions for awhile but most are newbies. We have a couple of scenarios and I notice some of the newbies are a little apt to use their most deadly attack first and ask questions later.

 

One of the scenarios I ran was the Return of Doctor Destroyer which caused quite an uproar in our Millenium City and the World in general. The government deputized the team as part of the new Doctor Destroyer task force which has a council that the team answers to made up of people from UNTIL, Primus, The CIA, DOSPA, and the NSA. The team is given a new base and some new DNPC's to run the place. Things are going fairly smoothly and then we start the Champions Battlegrounds modules.

 

The first run again shows how the newbies are very hack and slash oriented. So I set up to have the teams legal advisor, Mr. Dewey from the law firm of Dewey, Cheetum, & Howe, come in and speak to the team about the liabilities involved in their battles and how they should not use lethal force unless absolutely neccessary.

 

A couple of sessions later we run Let's go to the Maul which has some villians who do not try to kill or even let innocents get harmed.

 

The scenario is going along when Foxbat appears and so do the members of Grab. Capture foam is fired at our powered armor character named Omega Man. Omega Man then decides to whip out his 4D6 RKA Light Sabre and try to slice Bluejay in two. Cheshire Cat runs to her side and helps her get away.

 

This leads to a rather bad battle as Foxbat and our team's Darkness specialist Shadows make large areas of reduced perception.

 

Foxbat grabs the jewel and then hopes in the Foxbat mobile. Omega Man proceeds to lift the vehicle 8 inches into the air and then hurl it for his full 70 strength into the floor of the mall. Doing so much body that the car is at negative 11 body. Foxbat is almost killed and his two compatriots start running for the exit.

 

Next we see our team's hero Voltage. An electrical energy projector chases them a few phases behind so he loses sight of them. He gets to the parking lot and sees a Yugo leaving the parking area at high speed. It is too far for him to see who is in the car. He uses his Dispel Technological Device power to shutdown the electrical system of the car and the car stops.

 

At this I think "Neat, he gets using the nonlethal force at least. Then next he hits the car with a 4D6 RKA electrical blast and nearly kills the college student who was in the car trying to get away from the bedlam.

 

Most of the villians got away except for Foxbat who will be suckin his dinner through an IV for awhile. Although if it weren't for Cheshire Cat, Bluejay would have had the same problem. Primus shows up and their Silver Avenger is highly ticked.

 

Omega Man and Voltage did not stick around for the police to arrive and talked about making plans to flee the country or to just mop up whoever came after them. These players were upset with the fact that I told them they had used too much force again.

 

My question to you is how would you handle the aftermath of this one?

 

What should happen to these very unheroic heroes?

 

I thought I gave them more than enough warning. Coincidentally, these two were also trying to use the rules to Munchkin their characters in the first place so I can't imagine how bad it would have been had I left them in their original design.

 

Anyway I am looking for input. How do you handle D&D style players in a Champions world.

 

I need to also find a way to get the rest of the team back in the good graces of the public so I can run the OmegaWorld scenario from Battlegrounds next.

 

Any input would be helpful. Thanks.

[Chuckg]

O-kay...

 

Do they have reputations as superheroes? Or is this first intro to the world?

 

'Cause if we're talking to door #2, what they just did makes them look a lot like super-VILLAINS. "Obviously", they were fighting with Foxbat and GRAB for the loot.

 

Not that it matters. Psychotic rampages like this are good for the Champions, the local Silver Avenger, and as many PRIMUS Assault Agents and MARS first responders -- with the heavy weapons -- as it takes to finally stun, Flash, Entangle, sleep-gas, or just plain beat down the PCs.

 

Because they are multiple attempted murderers now, after all.

[Chuckg]

Oh yes, and after all their characters land in jail...

 

.. hand 'em blank character sheets and say "Make new characters".

 

And if they walk out? Find new players.

 

Oh yes -- and if they actually use lethal force on the cops or PRIMUS people? Well, we know what happens to superpowered cop-killers, don't we? Yes, yes we do.

[Guest innominatus]

I don't know if I'd flat-out force them to all take new characters; but logic and reason will break down in the campaign if the characters aren't confronted with the consequences of their actions. So....

 

1.) Unless the heroes bought the Perk "Local Police Powers" (and maybe even if they did), have the villains slap a nice big civil suit on the heroes for their excessive use of force, or even bring them up on criminal charges.

 

2.) Introduce into the campaign a VERY powerful (one with a decent chance of taking on the entire team) True-Blue Hero, somebody nobody could possibly doubt is one of the Good Guys. And if the characters screw up again, have this Captain Do-Gooder INSIST that the heroes turn themselves in to the authorities to explain their actions (and DON'T let him take "No" for an answer). And if the PC's start assaulting a dyed-in-the-wool hero, then it's "Open Season" on the PC's...

 

3.) When word gets out that the heroes are out for blood, the villains are going to hear about it too; that will in turn make the villains more bloodthirsty in battle (they may as well pull out all the stops; anything less and they're as good as dead!) If your players are the type to be concerned by it, have the villains take a few civilian hostages, and see what happens to the heroes' reputations when innocent bystanders start dying due to the heroes' callous disregard for human life....

 

4.) Change the name of the law firm. I'm as big a fan of the Three Stooges as you'll ever meet; but if you make the guy cautioning the heroes against excessive force the punchline of a running joke, they're going to be less likely to take his advice seriously....

 

5.) Sit down with your players and explain your expectations to them. Discuss the conventions of the comics you're trying to emulate (there is a LOT of variation in terms of lethality, depending on what books you and your players are reading), and ask them what sort of game THEY are expecting to play in. Make sure everybody is on the same page; if your players are unanimously focused on pounding the Bad Guy into mash and don't want to give any thought to "collateral damage", you may need to adjust some of your expectations if they're not willing to meet you halfway...

 

Actually, I'd probably try Number 5 first....

[Trebuchet]

First, I would ask the players (nicely) to tone down the killing attacks and general bloodthirstiness. Explain that this is a superhero campaign and not D&D. I'm assuming you explained most of this before they entered the game, but the fact you described them both as munchkinizers makes me suspect they won't easily change. But it's still right to try.

 

Second, I would have the PCs hassled by the authorities for the excessive force. Have the district attorney file charges for assault. Have the family of the college student file a multimillion dollar lawsuit for medical expenses, destruction of his car and mental anguish. Make the family sympathetic as hell (Mom, dad, grandma, little twin sisters, maybe they're Vietnamese immigrants talking about living the American dream.) Have the family appear on Good Morning America talking about how Voltage nearly killed their son who works two jobs to put himself through college and who was just leaving his job at the mall and was late for because of the supervillain fight. Have the cops look askance at every use of power by these guys. Convene a grand jury to determine if excessive force was used. Have PRIMUS or some other federal agency review the team's certification. Pour it on.

 

Third, all if that doesn't work, ask the players to leave the game. You don't want to wreck your campaign over a couple of yahoos who just don't get it. If they're damaging either the other players' or your enjoyment of the game then they need to get right or leave. This is supposed to be fun.

[Hugh Neilson]

Lots of good suggestions above. Also, look at what happens in the comics. Do the people Our "Heroes" are killing/maiming have relatives or friends? Probably. How often, in the comics, does a revenge-crazed relation come after the hero? These guys are making it morally justifiable.

 

What if someone with similar powers starts using these guys as cover for their own murders? Oh, it's a frame up is it? Seems like your typical behaviour, so the press will already have you convicted.

 

Now, to REALLY punish the munchkins, let's use the classic comic staple: that which does not kill me (and somnetimes even that which does) makes me stronger. Foxbat with cyborg components, out for vengeance? The slain supervillain returns from the grave with powers far beyond those formerly possessed, seeking vengeance on her killer? NOw, I refer to this as realy puniushing the munchkins because it is their own actions which have made their enemies so much more powerful.

 

During a police investigation, wouldn't the murder weapons (ie Omega Man's armor focus) be seized for the full duration of the investigation and trial? He gave them the right to take away his focus. Munchkins love having their toys taken away, right?

 

In the end, though, it may be that these players just are not going to be happy playing in a Supers campaign. They should have the maturity to make that decision, and leave. If they don't, you may be fporced to ask them to sit out for the good of the campaign. Unfortunately, that means recruiting players of a more (super) heroic mindset.

 

Many of my Champs players alkso play D&D, but our D&D campaigns don't include characters out to kill everything that moves either. Some players, however, are only in the game to be the toughest guy on the block. These power trippers aren't any good for any campaign unless powertripping is its focus.

[Sketchpad]

I've been in a similar situation before ... when I was confronted with a group of super "heroes" that took out a major villain, I had the law come down on them hard ... for the next three weekly sessions, they were on the run from UNTIL, Primus, FBI and three superhero groups ... when they were finally caught, there was a trial (which we played out, as one of the players was a laywer) and they lost. Of the six members, three were found guilty as accessories to manslaughter (gaining 10 years in the tank), two were found guilty of second degree manslaughter (life with chance of parole), and the last one, who was the most violent of them was found guilty first degree manslaughter and coerscion (sp?) (3 life terms w/o parole) ... the group was also charged with resisting arrest and assualting a public law officer (aka sanctioned supers). The players were disappointed and I lost 3 members ... but, in the long run, the group was better because of it as the remaining three made new characters (one of which being a second gen of his original character) and went on to form a much loved group in the world ... ironic part is, the three that left told me that their characters would never change, so they busted out of jail as NPCs and became one of the main villain groups that the PCs battled

[Doug McCrae]

Genre has a part to play. In the Authority for example, the heroes massacre vast numbers of their foes and they still seem very popular. Certainly they don't ever have to bother with legal repercussions. Of course, Seth did eventually come after them, but that was for giving Bill Clinton the finger, not for killing people.

[Supreme Serpent]

The players do need to tone it down.

 

However, I notice the phrase "4D6 KA" coming up a few times. Have the newbie players been made aware of how lethal such attacks can be? Have they seen demonstrations vs similar targets in the past? If campaign lethality is such a concern, why do they have such attacks on their sheets, instead of 12D6 EB's or 8D6 AP attacks?

 

If the Foxbatmobile is setup like the Batmobile, and the players haven't run into him before (ie know that it's "just a Yugo with a fancy fiberglass frame"), I don't think that spiking the car was too excessive. If someone did that in a comic to Batman in the Batmobile, I would expect Bats to either abort to eject out, or climb out of the wreckage. I would not expect a 70 STR to get past the vehicles DEF, it's BODY, and make it -11 BODY and severely injure a supervillain past his own PD - without multiple hits.

[The Mind Master]

Originally posted by Supreme Serpent

I would not expect a 70 STR to get past the vehicles DEF, it's BODY, and make it -11 BODY and severely injure a supervillain past his own PD - without multiple hits.

 

I had the same thought, wondering how so much body could have gotten through to injure Foxbat so badly if it wasn't a killing attack. I didn't think the action was excessive in the genre.

 

Sounds like you've already talked to the players and they don't understand, which is unfortunate. Punishing them in-game is not a good option, IMO, as I've rarely seen it work to change behavior if talking has already failed. Plus it diverts the whole campaign into something that often neither the GM nor the players enjoy.

 

I think the only real options are to strike some kind of compromise with them so they can hack at times if that's what they want (of course I'd armor up my villains, then) ...or else find some players who want to play the same genre that you do.

[Chuckg]

The impression I got is that the team brick threw the entire car like a Hail Mary pass in the Super Bowl -- while Foxbat was still in it.

[The Mind Master]

Originally posted by Chuckg

The impression I got is that the team brick threw the entire car like a Hail Mary pass in the Super Bowl -- while Foxbat was still in it.

 

I thought he just picked up the car and smashed it down. But whatever, 70 STR is 14d6. Assume a BODY count of 14 and a DEF for the car of 3, that gives you the -11 BODY for the car. So 11 BODY gets through, and any occupant in the car who has at least 11 PD (which I think Foxbat has) takes no body.

 

Or am I missing something?

[Chuckg]

Falling damage. He threw the car up into the air.

[Supreme Serpent]

Originally posted by Chuckg

Falling damage. He threw the car up into the air.

 

He flew up with it 8 inches, then threw it down.

[Chuckg]

egad

[The Mind Master]

Not to belabor the point, but I still don't understand how 70 STR did so much body in one hit. Even if he threw the car across the mall and it smashed into the wall, it would still be 14d6 normal attack. Falling damage could be applied afterwards, I suppose, if they fell a few hexes when the car was destroyed, but that shouldn't do much BODY to the occupants of the car.

 

Just curious.

[Blue]

I find Experience Point garnishment is the best incentive.

 

If you kill someone and it was unavoidable, I don't penalize, so long as you roleplay the implications true to character.

 

If you kill someone unavoidably and don't roleplay it out true to character, I garnish you a point (which in champions EXP is a slow enough climb).

 

If you kill someone recklessly and then realize the error of your ways, I garnish you 1-2 pts.

 

If you kill someone recklessly and don't care, you get no experience for the scenario.

 

If you do it again, you not only get no exp for that scenario, but you start incurring Reputation, Hunted, Watched, and other disads without benefit of the points for them.

 

It's simple, and I tell them up front: You're superheroes. Great Power, Great Responsibility, etc.

[TheRealVector]

Let's look at this from a different perspective. Is GRAB likely to come back and cause trouble when its so much easier (and safer) in other cities. Maybe your players are on to something?

 

Yeah, just joking.

 

But then again, what if you players want to be Authority style A**holes? Maybe you could give them what they want, unless you just couldn't have fun with that kind of game.

[Vondy]

It sounds more like and expectations problem than a character problem. I would sit down with the players and discuss the genre conventions and assumptions that are in play for your particular campaign. If you have the Champions supplement have them read the relevent sub-genre section.

 

There are three possibilities:

 

1) they aren't interested in super-heroes and are being passive aggressive

2) they simply don't understand the genre and different style of play (likely)

3) they aren't operating in their "comfort zone"

 

Discussion is always the first step.

[Vex]

I started a Champions campaign BECAUSE my players were Hack and Slashers. Most of them really didn't care about the story and longed for battle, so I started the Exiles campaign where they can get lots of combat and no real attachments except to their own characters and the team members.

 

Surprisingly, the areas that they feel they need to ramp up is Defenses (well you did 50 stun the other night) and skills. For some reason they often come up with really silly solutions. The other night they appeared near a huge crater with two very large foot prints at the bottom and the Tallus (the device that gives them their missions) told them to Ride with the Thunderbolt and stop the Hulk. The 4 heroes met General Ross (aka Thunderbolt) and went to fight the 650 point Hulk. The speedster ran to Denver to "steal a beer truck and as many animal tranquilizers as possible", the noble warrior son of Thor flew over to help a downed chopper leaving the Seraph (the son of Angel and Psylock) and Forge to stop the Hulk. Even with a low intelligence, a OCV of 4 or 5 and a speed of 4, the Hulk will eventually tag you and I was only playing with 75 Str Hulk until he raged (after a full turn).

 

What are the average defenses in your group compared to the DC of attacks? Pd? Ed? Resistant?

 

To give you an idea how bad it is, one player is trying to build Ash from the Army of Darkness movie. The character has like 73 points of Skills (not including the 13 in Martial Arts) and 30 PD and ED with 20 resistant of each.

[ChuckB]

I'd give Ash lots of body , luck and some combat luck or maybe resistant damage reduction.

 

He gets hurt a lot , but never seriously.

[NetNemesis316]

Update

 

Thanks for the suggestions so far. Just to give you a little more information. I did set down and talk with the players before this incident happened. I let them know that killing attacks would have consequences. Unfortunately that did not seem to work. The other players also said something to them during the scenario and one of them went to help Foxbat after the fall.

 

By the way. The car was a Honda Civic. 14 Body and 3 Def. He flew 8 game inches upward with the vehicle and then spiked the vehicle into the ground with his full strength. So I combined the falling and strength damage as I would think it should be done given the circumstances. The player also rolled a huge number of sixes. Wouldn't ya know it.

 

I also took into account that Foxbat was not just falling to the floor but had twisted metal and engine parts and the like coming in toward him. Most people in car accidents aren't killed by the sudden stop but by the vehicle parts going through their bodies.

 

Anyway, I believe these two will not be playing anymore, which is too bad because if they just would have learned to tone it down I think they could have had fun. But personality wise they just felt the need to dominate the game to a degree that it would have caused me to jack up the villains and would have ruined the fun for everyone else. I had to go through and tone down Omega Man 3 times before we got a character I would let him try to play.

 

Now what do I do to get the rest of the team out of this mess they didn't create?

 

I want to bring them into the rest of the scenarios in Champions battlegrounds. One of which, OmegaWorld, needs the heroes to be popular with the public to be invited to.

 

As an aside I could change the lawfirm to Slythur, Slandre, Beetem, & Cheetum

 

Any Suggestions? I also would like more input on the whole killer player thing so I can avoid it in the future. Thanks again for the help.

[pinecone]

Basicly it sounds like this was more of a weird dominance thing for those two characters "D*mnit I AM Hrathgar!...the laws do not aply to me!" To repair the harm? Easy if they two wildmen are no longer coming to the tea party...the remaining heros can hunt them down and turn them in.There is no problem with hurt feelings as they are now NPCs. Let them slowly reabilitate themselve in the press and it will make the world richer and more "real"....best of luck, but it just may be those two would not have fit no matter what...it happens.....

[TheRealVector]

Re: Update

 

Any Suggestions? I also would like more input on the whole killer player thing so I can avoid it in the future. Thanks again for the help. [/b]

 

What you need to do is learn to spot the types of players that are likely to be KILLERS. Face it, a lot of people roleplay as an outlet for their baser, darker instincts. Champion 'Heros' or not their attitude is going to be, "OK, GRAB ya wanna F*** with us?! Then DIE! M*****F******!!"

 

Its likely that losing those two killer players is a good thing. Hopefully you live in a big enough gaming community you can afford to be a little discriminating with who you play with. Learn to filter out the imature, bloodthirsty jerks before you roll the first die.

 

Oh, and getting the remaining players out of this mess would be, "realistically", very difficult. What about a reboot of the campaign?

[Corven_Ren]

OK I had a group once like this as well as I am sure anyone who has GM'd has well heres an NPC hero I created to deal with my killer heroes, feel free to sick him on your people

 

The American Avenger

Real Name: Joshua Knight

Val Chr Cost

80 STR 70

18 DEX 24

40 CON 60

20 BOD 20

15 INT 5

18 EGO 16

25 PRE 15

16 COM 3

40 PD 24

40 ED 32

6 SPD 32

24 REC 0

80 END 0

100 STN 20

Char Cost 311

 

Pts Skills/Talents/Perks

15 Beuracratics, Conversation, Oratory, Persuasion, Interogation 14-

06 Criminology, Deduction 12-

03 Teamwork 13-

02 PS: Lawyer 11-

03 Federal/National Police Powers

13 Contact: Golden Avenger (Access to Major Institutions, Extremely

useful skill, Signifigant contacts of own, Very Good relationship)

48 Combat Skill Levels: +6 in all combat

90 Total Cost

 

Pts Custom Martial Art Style

5 Jab (Def Strike) +1/+3; 16D6

4 Cross (Mart Strike) 0/+2; 18D6

5 Haymaker (Off Strike) -2/+1; 20D6

5 Clothesline (Pass Throw) +0/+0;16D6+V/5;Target Fall; F. Move

3 Waistlock (Mart Grab) -1/-1; grab 2 limbs, 90 Str for holding

4 Bearhug (Crush) +0/+0; 20D6 crush;must follow grab

4 Reversal -1/-2; 95 STR vs Grabs; grab 2 limbs

4 Block +2/+2; Block, Abort

4 Disarm -1/+1; 90 Str to Disarm

38 pts MA Total

 

Pts Powers

40 American Tough: Damage Resistance 40 PD/ 40 ED

40 Tireless Defender of America: Reduced END (0 END +1/2) Applied to

STR

20 United We Stand: Knockback Resistance -10"

13 Don't Tread on Me: Mental Defense: 15 pts total

48 From Sea to Shining Sea: Running +14" (20" total) 0 End (+1/2)

161 pts total power cost

 

Total Char Cost 600 Pts (300 base + 200 Disad + 100 EXP pts)

 

Pts Disadvantages

15 Secret ID (Frequent, Major)

25 Super Patriot (Very Common, Total)

25 Hunted By Anti-Americans 11- (MO Pow, Harsh Punish, NCI)

20 Code Vs Killing (Common,Total)

25 DNPC: Family, Parents (Walter& Aline), Younger Sisters (Ali &Beth

Twins);(Normal, Unaware of Secret ID, Group DNPCx4)

25 Hunted By Viper 11- (Mo Pow, Hars Punish, NCI)

20 Honorable (Common, Total)

20 Reputation: Member of PRIMUS 14- (Extreme)

25 All American Bonus

200 Pts Disadvantage Total

 

Hgt: 6'7"; Wgt: 275 lbs; Hair: Black; Eyes: Green

Appearance: Out of costume Joshua usually wears a grey or black business suit while on business or jeans and t-shirt while on leisure. As the American Avenger his costume is blue with a large red A on the chest; red gloves and boots trimed in white, a white belt and a red cape; his mask covers most of his face save for his nose, mouth and chin.

 

Origin

Joshua Knight was a standard low level bueraucrat/lawyer in the PRIMUS orginization, most of his work involved public relations and he often was seen on tv speaking for the orginization. He also played football for a minor league football team as a linebacker. His life however took a drastic change. Joshua had stayed late at PRIMUS HQ to to finish some paper work and write a speech for a tv appearance, as he was leaving the building a large battalion of Viper Agents and Supers attacked the HQ. PRIMUS was able to thwart the attack with the aid of several independant heroes but unfortuantly Joshua lay bleeding to death in the prking lot. The Golden Avenger scooped up Joshua and took him to the HQ's med lab. The doctors told Joshua that the only way he would survive was if he would agree to be physical augmented by the PRIMUS labs. Joshua agreed and underwent over 13 hours of surgery and various enhancment treatments. When Joshua recovered from his surgery he was taken under the Golden Avengers wing for training. Joshua developed his own form of fighting combining aspects of boxing and profesional wrestling maneuvers. After his training he was given a costume and federal police powers. He still works for PRIMUS in both of his identities, but has acted independantly of them as well in his heroic id.