I've Gone Totaly Mental!

[Dust Raven]

Has anyone noticed that Mental Powers (other than Ego Attack) are, in practice, not very effective?

 

Well, that is to say that a normal EB or other form of attack is more effective than Mental Powers.

 

I got bored at work again today and started to work with the probability of things. Turns out that against a normal, ordinary person (EGO 10, no Mental Defense), a 12d6 Mental Power will work 90% of the time if used only at the EGO+ level. This lowers to about 80% for EGO+10 and drops to about 60% for EGO+20 and just over 30% for EGO+30.

 

This is taking into account the fact that the target gets to make (well, fail) an EGO Roll in his next Phase before the Mental Power can have any affect on him at all. It also assumes the attack will hit the target about 95% of the time (which it will for any self respecting mentalist).

 

Those chances might not seem all that bad, especially considering that most character are near "normal, ordinary person" level in regards to EGO and Mental Defense. But when you look at the effectiveness of an EB 12d6 against a "normal, ordinary super" with a DEF of around 20. Even considering that attacker and target have the same CV, the attack will hit about 60% of the time, and do on average 22 STUN.

 

Now, doing 22 STUN might be considered about equal to getting an EGO+20 effect. But that's comparing base EGO to quite a bit more than base DEX and DEF. If the target has just a little more EGO or Mental Defense the above chances drop dramatically (enough to make EGO+20 or EGO+30 effect nigh impossible).

 

Well, okay, this might just be my campaigns, but I was wondering... Anyone else have similar opinions on this? Am I, in fact, totally mental and have missed some vital factor?

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

Well, it's certainly true that...point for point...mental powers are not as efficient as STR or EB...or most of the damaging powers for that matter. However, they allow you to do things that damaging powers can't...so I think it evens out...overall. Yes...getting EGO +30 on Mind Control is hard...but it should be. Smart mentalists phrase their commands carefully. I do agree that mental powers in Hero are generally far weaker than those portrayed in comics(especially Marvel), but then...every PC mentalist isn't supposed to be Professor X either.

 

Rob

[Grailknight]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

This really isn't anything new since this change was made in 4th ED to make Mental powers more effective without being all or nothing. Still, its galling to have normals shake off your mind control after 1 turn and long term effects are nearly impossible with straight Mental powers. I've used several fixes to get around this over the years.

 

Option 1: Use the 2x effect for noncombat suprise rules on mental powers as if they were standard attacks. This allows even low powered Mentalists to be fearsome in the right setting.

 

Option 2: Use the campaign variant rules that say that all normals take 2x effect from all powers, while PC's and powerful NPC's get 1/2 damage reduction from all REAL technology and weapons. My favorite as characters can be worldbeaters without climbing to 20+ DC powers.

 

Option 3: Use the old rules for mental powers [ 1x,2x,3x and 4x EGO ] but double the cost of Reduced END for Mental powers[ ala autofire ] and require that framework slots be maintained. This makes it harder to get the big effects but there are NO breakout rolls, once you've got they're yours.

[Gary]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

A lot depends on your total diceage and the average damage level in your campaign. A 40 active point campaign will mean that non-ego attack mental powers are worthless. A 60 active point campaign means that the mentallist needs to either haymaker, push, or phrase commands carefully to get the desired effect. A 80 active point campaign means that the mentallist routinely does whatever he wants. A 100+ active point campaign means that mentallists are basically gods.

 

Don't forget that it's a lot easier for mentallists to push or haymaker in general, since they can be far away in cover and still attack with no penalties.

[Dust Raven]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

A lot depends on your total diceage and the average damage level in your campaign. A 40 active point campaign will mean that non-ego attack mental powers are worthless. A 60 active point campaign means that the mentallist needs to either haymaker, push, or phrase commands carefully to get the desired effect. A 80 active point campaign means that the mentallist routinely does whatever he wants. A 100+ active point campaign means that mentallists are basically gods.

 

Don't forget that it's a lot easier for mentallists to push or haymaker in general, since they can be far away in cover and still attack with no penalties.

Hey, I forgot about the Haymaker rule in 5th! That applies to EVERYTHING now! And an extra 4d6 would massively increase the effectiveness (at the cost of being a sitting duck, but hopefully a sitting duck at least 20-40" from combat).

[Bloodstone]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

One of our mentalists is a minor PSI that uses an OIF to boost his powers considerably. He was really frustrated by his basic set of powers until he discovered the joy of how the Cumulative advantage worked.

 

Sure, this isn't the greatest thing in combat where time is of the essence, but out of combat he WILL break you eventually if you don't have decent mental defenses. And that's without the PSI booster...

[BobGreenwade]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

The Cumulative Advantage can go a long ways with Mental Powers, especially in a Heroic-level setting (Star Hero or Fantasy Hero).

 

In Champions, there's an assumption that only the greater, full-control effects of Mental Powers are much good -- it's like assuming that an Energy Blast is only good if it knocks your opponent out in one strike. But instead of (for example) using Mental Illusions to make Dumb Brick was just attacked by Captain Flag with enough effect to do STUN, a mentalist can make Dumb Brick think his teammate, Cyber Terror, just made a remark to set off Dumb Brick's temper (whether as a Psych Limit or Enraged). Creative uses like that, while less impressive, can be more effective than the straightforward uses.

[TheEmerged]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

Some talking points based on my experience.

 

#1> It's a common mistake to over-require the EGO+30 level. Truth is, most commands are going to be in the EGO+10 or EGO+20 slots.

 

#2> At the 'heroic' level (75/75 or 100/100), Cumulative is so useful as to be almost a necessity.

 

#3> Personal peeve -- make sure you're using the right normals Reference pg 223 and 224 of FREd, that's the standard I've been building my normals around. Those 2 extra points of EGO can make a difference...

 

#4> As noted earlier, remember to use all the tools at your disposal. Haymaker, Rapid Attack, PSL's (especially useful for Mind Scan), attack from surprise...

[Mentor]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

A lot depends on your total diceage and the average damage level in your campaign. A 40 active point campaign will mean that non-ego attack mental powers are worthless. A 60 active point campaign means that the mentallist needs to either haymaker, push, or phrase commands carefully to get the desired effect. A 80 active point campaign means that the mentallist routinely does whatever he wants. A 100+ active point campaign means that mentallists are basically gods.

 

Don't forget that it's a lot easier for mentallists to push or haymaker in general, since they can be far away in cover and still attack with no penalties.

Exactly. Mental powers being invisible to normal sight and having a line of sight range can be devastating advantages in the right circumstances. Combined with the maneuvers gary suggested here, Mentalists make up for the lower damage.

 

Also, keep in mind that less of the damage gets subtracted by the defenses that most non mentalist characters possess. A typical Brick or Energy Projector is likey to have the same amount or more of STUN damage leak through from an Ego Blast as a punch or lightning bolt, because of little or no Mental Defense compared to lots more PD and ED.

[Snarf]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

There's a lot of great tips and clarifications in this thread. I hope stuff like this is included in the next edition of Ultimate Mentalist.

[Vorsch]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

Just dont give ego bonus for breakout roll, roll is simply 11< -1 per 5pts of effect. i guarantee this will make a difference. After all why should high ego characters get a better chance of breaking out, its double dipping because the mentalist had to match and exceed there Ego in the first place.

 

Example str 10 grabs another str10 guy, make breakout roll at 11< seam fair?

 

now Str 100 grabs str 100, breakout roll is on 29< , hmm problem methinks.

 

Contests of mental str should be the same, or give a -bonus to the breakout roll based of the Attackers ego.

 

Ego 10 heroes should be a rarity after all ego 10 people dont fight meglomaniacs every week for years, they run away and get councelling.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

Just dont give ego bonus for breakout roll, roll is simply 11< -1 per 5pts of effect. i guarantee this will make a difference. After all why should high ego characters get a better chance of breaking out, its double dipping because the mentalist had to match and exceed there Ego in the first place.

 

Example str 10 grabs another str10 guy, make breakout roll at 11< seam fair?

 

now Str 100 grabs str 100, breakout roll is on 29< , hmm problem methinks.

 

Contests of mental str should be the same, or give a -bonus to the breakout roll based of the Attackers ego.

 

Ego 10 heroes should be a rarity after all ego 10 people dont fight meglomaniacs every week for years, they run away and get councelling.

good point on 'double dipping'.

[Nevenall]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

Triple dipping if you ask me, because you also have to make a successful ECV attack roll.

Though this does help explain why Ego costs 2 points per point.

[zornwil]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

I think this has been answered pretty well but I would add that I always allow 1 phase of effect for mental powers, I hate the idea that the EGO roll can occur before the first bit of effect takes place, and that seems very anti-genre as well as anti-mentalist in balancing. Hmmm, I need to put that in my house rules, it's not apparent as it's not there but that's how I do it...

[Mentor]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

I think this has been answered pretty well but I would add that I always allow 1 phase of effect for mental powers' date=' I hate the idea that the EGO roll can occur before the first bit of effect takes place, and that seems very anti-genre as well as anti-mentalist in balancing. Hmmm, I need to put that in my house rules, it's not apparent as it's not there but that's how I do it...[/quote']

This approach seems reasonable to me as well. Making every EGO effect all or nothing sure lowers the desirability of EGO powers in my eyes.

[Trebuchet]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

I think this has been answered pretty well but I would add that I always allow 1 phase of effect for mental powers' date=' I hate the idea that the EGO roll can occur before the first bit of effect takes place, and that seems very anti-genre as well as anti-mentalist in balancing.[/quote']I disagree. It's no different from a brick being able to break an Entangle as a 0 Phase action with casual strength. Of course if the Entangle/mental effect is strong enough then it'll just take more effort and time to break free.

 

Since it appears Mentor and I disagree, we'll have to sit down (perhaps with the other GMs as well) and hash this out for our campaign. As of yet this situation hasn't occured.

[zornwil]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

This approach seems reasonable to me as well. Making every EGO effect all or nothing sure lowers the desirability of EGO powers in my eyes.

Yeah, also, I don't make the PC declare where they want to land on the EGO+x chart, I simply ask what their command and setup is. Depending how well they roll and where it lands on the chart versus their command/setup is how well it functions. That means usually it's at least a partial effect, though of course trying something that's just ludicrous and getting EGO+10 simply isn't going to work period. Doing something aggressive but reaonable and getting EGO+10 would get some impact, possbily just forcing the target to pause for a second (depending of course on the situation).

 

PS/EDIT - above I mean "usually...at least a partial effect" assuming they've hit with force, not just per se.

[zornwil]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

I disagree. It's no different from a brick being able to break an Entangle as a 0 Phase action with casual strength. Of course if the Entangle/mental effect is strong enough then it'll just take more effort and time to break free.

 

Since it appears Mentor and I disagree, we'll have to sit down (perhaps with the other GMs as well) and hash this out for our campaign. As of yet this situation hasn't occured.

It should very rarely occur. Mostly it won't occur if the EGO is sufficient in the first place to deflect the attack. When it does occur, the attack just barely hit typically or it's a bit more of a freak thing. I can imagine playing it either way, I am just loathe to see any PC launch an attack and have it shrugged off. Though, to your point, I suppose "casual EGO" would be a fair way to go.

[JmOz]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

One thing I did in my game was make all normals x2 to mental powers, while making MD a figured Characteristic (Ego/5; NCM 8)

 

Created the flavor I wanted for mentalists (Can control normals easily, heroes are a chalange)

[zornwil]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

One thing I did in my game was make all normals x2 to mental powers, while making MD a figured Characteristic (Ego/5; NCM 8)

 

Created the flavor I wanted for mentalists (Can control normals easily, heroes are a chalange)

I do have MD as a figured Characteristic as well. But I (personally) would find normals being x2 to be a bit much (assuming you mean they're twice as tough).

 

What's really cool is how all these variations exist yet we all seem pretty happy with our games. That speaks well of the system's ability to meet people's needs.

 

Okay, I'm done stating the obvious. Sorry, haven't slept all night. Aiming to get of work at 3 PM and get a nap - before another engagement tonight.

 

I think I'm zombie-posting... (nah, not that bad, but as of now I am in fact getting tired)

 

Well JmOz, that's more than you cared to hear about...I'll take it back to NGD...

[JmOz]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

Actualy zornwil I ment they have a x2 Vulnerability to mental powers, note this is for telepathic nature abilities, not a characters "Telekinetic Fist" EB type things

[tesuji]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

IMX...

 

1. I think of success on a EGO+30 akin to a total Ko AND a new ally. Not only have you one shotted a villain but you probably have him fighting for you for a single turn. Unless many villains have the higher egos or mental defenses, 1 in 4 seems about right.

 

EXAMPLE: Mindmaster fires four times, whiffs three but on the fourth he gets the enemy to fight on his side.. one enemy down and fighting for you. Blaster fires four times, hits three times, drops one and hurts another. This doesn't seem too far off.

 

2. Most of the beneficial effects are IMX gained from lower level orders. Its useful for the guy doing the mentalist to be clever and not rely on the brute force.

 

3. this all applies for supers games. heroic games wont work well at all as the ego scores usually IMX go UP while the powers go down. you need to redesign the interaction for heroics.

[zornwil]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

Actualy zornwil I ment they have a x2 Vulnerability to mental powers' date=' note this is for telepathic nature abilities, not a characters "Telekinetic Fist" EB type things[/quote']

Oh, sorry, thanks.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

I agree that there are some problems with the mental powers. One is the Mind Control chart that remains unchanged (and unclear) since 1st edition. The idea of spending points, making a successful attack, rolling sufficiently to exceed the target's EGO, and then only being able to make the target do what he was going to do anyway seems like a complete non-power to me. "Aha! I've successfully forced Grond to continue pounding people into the ground! Those were points well spent! You can imagine how proud I am of my awesome power!"

 

I would like to see something more like this:

>=EGO - Target changes actions slightly

>=EGO+10 - Target changes actions significantly, but won't do anything contrary to his nature/personality/circumstance

>=EGO+20 - Target will do something he normally wouldn't do in the circumstance

>=EGO+30 - Target will do something completely against his nature/personality/circumstance

 

It would be nice if the current table included some guidelines for what exactly constitutes something "the target would be inclined to do anyway" and what constitutes something "the target wouldn't mind doing."

 

I suppose this might have to wait until 5e Ultimate Mentalist, but I've always loved mentalists. My very first Champions character was a mentalist.

 

Here are some things I do in my campaigns re: mental powers:

 

1. Mind Control is automatically telepathic by default.

2. Mind Scan is automatically undetectable to the target, unless the target is mentally aware, or until you actually do something to the target through the scan.

 

These are because that's how I've always seen mental powers depicted in comics and other literature/film/etc.

 

3. I allow a +1/4 advantage "Invisible to non-mentally aware targets." With this advantage, another mentalist will still be able to easily detect when you are using (or trying to use) a mental power on him, but normals won't be able to tell. This cannot be applied to Ego Attack.

 

4. I allow another advantage which I've taken to calling "Lock Sensing." It allows the mentallist to roll his effect dice and see what level was achieved before declaring the specific effect he wants. As the GM, I roll the effect dice behind the screen in order to keep the targets EGO/MD/etc. a secret and just announce, "You achieved EGO+20" e.g. For a +1/2 advantage, the mentallist declares a type of effect he wants and can then modify it based on the level. For a +1 advantage, the mentallist can select eny effect he wants after learning the level achieved. In other words, the mentallist gets a sense of how good a "lock" he got on the target's psyche.

 

5. I usually ignore the first breakout roll. If you hit and roll the needed amount of effect, the target should do what you want for at least one phase.

 

6. I allow, and sometimes encourage, use of the Cumulative advantage on mental powers. However, the target's EGO is subtracted from each subsequent effect roll.

 

7. For certain plot- or character-breaking effects, I impose severe penalties, such as to force someone to reveal their secret ID, or to kill their DNPC.

 

IDHMBIFOM, but #6 might be standard practice.

[zornwil]

Re: I've Gone Totaly Mental!

 

I never read that EGO+ level as anything but "Target changes actions slightly" - it didn't say the target woudln't "change actions", just that they wouldn't do things they're opposed to or would have a problem with. Remember, there's wiggle room deliberately built in for good suggestions such as "PROTECT YOUR TEAMMATE, HE"S ABOUT TO GET HIT!" - might well qualify as the regular EGO+