HERO System Sixth Edition--What do *you* want to see?

[Nelijal]

I figure we may as well start a list now. With ten years worth of input, "SREd" should write itself.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Actually, better make that "Sixth HERO Rules Edition" = "SHREd" (it's more eupohonious).

[Nelijal]

Originally posted by Dr. Anomaly

Actually, better make that "Sixth HERO Rules Edition" = "SHREd" (it's more eupohonious).

SHREd, I like it, though I have no idea what eupohonious means.

[TheEmerged]

Sounds better, I think?

 

My hit list, no order implied. I'll admit right out the gate some of these are petty. Anything I put in bold is something I couldn't personally put my name on a Sixth Edition without addressing.

 

1> Damage Shield's requirements/cost brought back into line.

2> Either eliminate the "Talent" section outright, or move the "no roll skills" like combat skill levels, defensive manuever, Rapid Attack, et al into it so it's something distinct and coherent instead of "collection of neat stuff you can let PC's have without calling them Powers".

3> List "Ranged" under "Range Advantages" instead of separately. Similarly, put "Does Knockback" and "Double Knockback" under a single "Knockback Advantage" header.

4> Make Autofire gain +5 shots instead of doubling the shots after the inital 5. Drop the advantage back to +1/4

5> Expand "Dispel" the way Change Enivornment (among other) powers got treated in 5th. This is an underutilized tool in many campaigns, IMO.

6> Give a more thorough discussion of the applicability of powers for EC's, MP's, and VPP's.

7> Eliminate that "Trigger: Whenever I need it" example.

8> Place at least one, and preferably two, additional steps on the MegaScale chart (10m and 100m). Explicitly state this can't be done for movement powers of less than 10" per phase or single-hex areas.

9> Address the problem of STR & CON's over-influence on figured statistics, especially relative to PRE, INT, and EGO. I don't think the answer is increasing the cost of STR/CON, I rather think the figured attribute formulas need to be adjusted.

10> Move Suppress back to its 4th Edition status of being non-cumulative/not stacking with itself. There were balance/cost problems between Drain & Suppress under 4th Edition -- that favored Suppress -- and making Suppress cumulative/self-stacking eliminated one of the few advantages Drain had. You want a cumulative/self-stacking Suppress, take the Cumulative advantage.

11> The picture of Seeker looking up Damage Resistance is simply too funny not to use. If ANY piece of art gets recycled, this is it

12> Give Multiform the same increasing cost rule that Duplication, Followers, Base, and the Computer/AI rules have: if the value exceeds the point cost of the character, the cost changes to 1 pt per 1 pt over the character's value. Consider giving it the mandatory +1 Advantage Duplication has, as well.

13> Eliminate any examples in the rules/power descriptions that says you "shouldn't use this power to do this". This violates the "never get worked up about the right way to do things" policy.

 

I'll think of more, I'm sure.

[JmOz]

A few more

 

Remove Duplication, it is now handled as a form of summons

 

Instant Change is back (this is a trivial but cool power and to have to jump through hoops is wrong

 

Armor is history

 

New Regeneration rules, every 5 points spent reduces the amount of time needed to heal your recovery in body one step (starting at month, uses timechart) furthermore include the "healing" options of limbs and death, takes as long as one cycle to regain (Ie if you recover your body a day you would reserect in a day)

 

to ECHO: DAMAGE SHIELD DOES NOT NEED CONTINOUS, but should have the same +1 cost as some powers do in regards to AF

[Mutant for Hire]

My big alteration, if we're going to go all the way to a sixth edition is to take the basic powers and break them down into their component parts.

 

That is, instead of having separate powers for Armor and Force Field and Force Wall, for example, there is a base effect Armor and then you figure out whether or not it costs END to use, whether or not its personal or on a wall, how it gets invoked, etc. Essentailly to build every power from the ground up.

 

 

This can ultimately shrink the power list considerably and make it easier to build new and interesting power such as a wall of flame (using the Force Wall with the Armor effect ripped out and a KA used instead).

 

The idea is, HERO is really about having the ultimate power construction toolkit and I'd like to see it go to the logical conclusion. Instead of advantages like Constant and limitations like No Range, why not make choices like these part of the power construction process?

[BobGreenwade]

Okay....

 

Actually I have several potential candidates for reform, some of which Steve has already addressed in either the FAQ or a HEROglyphs article (in Digital Hero).

 

However, the only one I'm really adamant about is Telekinesis. When I saw in 4th Edition that the cost had been raised, I was crushed, because I could no longer make one of my favorite characters viable in a game with Active Point limits.

 

My fix for Telekinesis is to 1) return the cost to the earlier 1 point for 1 STR, and 2) completely remove the Punch/Squeeze aspect of the Power. That should never have been introduced in the first place, or at most should have been a Power Advantage. It's a violation of Meta-Rule #5, "One Power should not be used to do what another already does." Currently, for 60 points I can lift and move things with 40 STR, and I can also do 8d6 of damage -- but isn't doing Normal damage at range the function of Energy Blast?

 

Then again, if my superheroes have a limit of 60 Active Points for their Powers, that 8d6 is going to be a bit wimpy, so I'd better buy a real Energy Blast at 12d6 -- except that I can still do 8d6 damage with Telekinesis. But why would I want to, if I can do 12d6 with Energy Blast?

 

I could go on and on about this, but I think you all get the basic idea.

[keithcurtis]

I'd like to see NO sixth edition! Don't you realize we'd have to buy our whole HERO library all over AGAIN?

 

Keith "cha-ching!" Curtis

[Chris Goodwin]

Include the Incomplete Character rules!

[Zoth]

What are y'all talking about we need Hero System 5.5 first so we can buy a 20% redone FREd, Hero System Bestiary and, Ultimate Martial Artist.

 

We can call it FREd senior

[Nelijal]

Originally posted by Zoth

What are y'all talking about we need Hero System 5.5 first so we can buy a 20% redone FREd, Hero System Bestiary and, Ultimate Martial Artist.

 

We can call it FREd senior

Wouldn't that be FREd junior?

[Zoth]

Originally posted by Nelijal

Wouldn't that be FREd junior?

hehe thanks, its late and I should get to bed before something bad happens

[zornwil]

I would really like to see a concentration on a "roll your own" flavor with a large section on how to design new capabilities and eliminate existing ones. I'd like to see fewer core rules/constructions with a larger collection of suggested uses in other books. But I am very much in the minority, a lot of people take great exception to scattering "new rules" (their terms) in genre books. I feel on the contrary it lends more specific flavor to those genre books and is not "new rules", rather it is simply specific applications of an underlying structure (if done correctly). For example, Instant Change would really be crucial in a superhero game but less important, to the point of non-consideration, in other genre. That or Instant Change ought to be recosted in superhero games to better represent its commonality and encouragement.

[Nelijal]

Originally posted by zornwil

But I am very much in the minority, a lot of people take great exception to scattering "new rules" (their terms) in genre books.

Yep, you're right, you're the minority . I have purchased genre books that I'm not really interested in just for those few rule pages that also apply to other genres.

[The_Hero]

OK, my take...

 

Fix Damage Shield!!!

 

Return Haymaker to a Str only maneuver and make it 1.5 times Str again...

 

only things I can think of...

[Lisa Nadazdy]

How about a 'rule-lite' variant? One of the great things about 4e, is that I bought a copy of the BBB, and several copies of the basic rules (the softcover ones), and handed them out to players during a game for reference.

 

Having a stack of 5e books would give me a hernia, I'm sure.

[Aroooo]

Originally posted by Lisa Nadazdy

How about a 'rule-lite' variant? One of the great things about 4e, is that I bought a copy of the BBB, and several copies of the basic rules (the softcover ones), and handed them out to players during a game for reference.

 

Having a stack of 5e books would give me a hernia, I'm sure.

 

I think after a while, DOJ should release a Hero Lite PDF to the net. Small 20 page doc with the basic rules for character construction and combat. It would be a handy reference, and a good way to get new players into the fold.

 

Aroooo

[Aroooo]

No Supers?

 

As far as a 6th edition goes, I'm still absorbing 5th edition, so I'm in no hurry. Our group does more heroic level games than superhero level games, so I'm not going to talk about any changes to 5th just yet - the more obvious ones have already been mentioned.

 

I will only mention that folks should keep in mind that Hero is not just Champions and super heros, so don't go overboard with large or sweeping changes to make the rules more effective for one genre or another. Aside from a few minor points already mentioned, I think 5th ed. finds that hard-to find ballance of "universal" system.

 

Aroooo

[tesuji]

Reduce the size of limitations and advantages so as to remove 1/4s and 3/4 stages. Make the steps between each limitation level broad and distinct. Allow the lesser differences that are currently seen as the 1/4 stages to become FX and give better guidelines o using FX in GMing.

 

Expand the principle of "synergy price bonuses" beyond autofire nnd/aoe etc to also address the various other cases where an advantage or limitation should price differently depending on the type of defense it works against and so forth. (A subtle one... full phase action on no range powers as opposed to full phase action on ranged powers)

 

Expand into practice the notion of campaign specific costs and how to assess them, such as water breathing's value in an atlantean campaign.

 

Expand the guidelines for the final step in power creation... the "did this turn out right? Does it make sense?" assessment stage that would for instance stand up and scream to the highest yardarm that a result such as "and this fighting array that can get you up to +6 dex (no figs) but only in limited circumstance and taking actions costs 24 cp" IS DONE WRONG when in the same game +6 dex always all the time no action is only costing 18 and thats with figureds to boot. Right now it seems the default is "did i do the math right?" and not "does the result make sense?"

 

if the above are done, then by default damage shield should already be fixed.

 

Finally, and this will never happen, reassess the entire way advantages and limitations are handled. It really breaks down way too much. The difference betweem a 12d6 Eb and a 12d6 EB full phase is +4 ranged combat levels (20 cp) unless they are guns (OAF) in which case its +1 ranged combat level and a familiarity (6 cp) yet all the problems of full phase vs half phase still exist to plague the guy with the slow high recoil (FX for full phase) gun toter just like they were for the slowfire Eb guy. if the same problems exist, why should the "balance" in cost be less than 1/3 of the original?

[tiger]

I miss reflection

[Dino]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire

My big alteration, if we're going to go all the way to a sixth edition is to take the basic powers and break them down into their component parts.

 

That is, instead of having separate powers for Armor and Force Field and Force Wall, for example, there is a base effect Armor and then you figure out whether or not it costs END to use, whether or not its personal or on a wall, how it gets invoked, etc. Essentailly to build every power from the ground up.

 

 

This can ultimately shrink the power list considerably and make it easier to build new and interesting power such as a wall of flame (using the Force Wall with the Armor effect ripped out and a KA used instead).

 

The idea is, HERO is really about having the ultimate power construction toolkit and I'd like to see it go to the logical conclusion. Instead of advantages like Constant and limitations like No Range, why not make choices like these part of the power construction process?

 

Here Here! I would like to see most powers start out no range/no end/visible ect. and let people pay more uniform base costs. (If you want your normal damage attack to work at range then buy ranged for it. Want it to add to your STR? buy and advantage for that. Otherwise it just does it's base damage as a touch attack.)

[Dr. Anomaly]

Originally posted by tiger

I miss reflection

 

Uhm...what? Missile Deflection/Reflection is still around...or is this something from a pre-4th Ed HERO version?

[Talon]

I'd want to see the rules made more consistent and "standardized". FREd was an improvement, but there are still a lot of things that are inconsistent for no real reason (for example, the damage rules around page 270).

[Thag13]

I'm actully happy with the the system as is for now.

 

Of course, Imostly run mid level normal games and such, so the powers is not as crital for me.

 

That being said I feel most everything works decently well as is. My supers were usually of the basic Brick, Energy projector, Martial Artist, without a lot of the extra rules...Its just a style of play we do.

 

Interesting comments though, great Thread

[SkyKnight]

What I'd like to see is everyone on this thread playing the 5th edition rules as written for a while before they get too excited about making changes. This is especially true for people who want to go back to earlier versions of the rules. I don't necessarily agree with the way everything was done in FREd, but I'm sure that the changes are the result of multiple YEARS of play. We'll have plenty of time to try things out in the 10 years or so before the next edition.