Old Man Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Originally posted by GamePhil 1. Fix the weapon and armor rules so that they're at least sort of balanced. It's the same as in 4th Edition, but if you're referring to the Limitation values I kind of see your point. No, they're completely different. Just compare the weapon charts. Str Min rules have gone from formulaic to arbitrary, not that the 4th ed. formula was all that great. And don't even get me started on the useless "real weapon" limitation, which will cause more problems than it solves. I generally use, and wouldn't mind seeing, a Utility Advantage/Limitation: if it's really useful in this game, it gets an Advantage, if it's not so useful a Limitation. However, if it never exists officially I wouldn't be bothered. That might work. The problem really is one that all 'universal' systems have, i.e. that a given power simply isn't going to be worth the same from one genre to the next. For the most part Hero powers are costed pretty well, but there are a couple that need to be reevaluated. Can't agree there. I especially like STR as it is, unless revisions were made system-wide (if they were to, for some reason, eliminate EC's altogether I could see increasing the cost of STR). Dexterity is also frequently argued to be broken, but I have yet to see an argument that applies universally. This sort of rolls into the power-cost problem I have above. STR is a good deal in Champions campaigns, but in FH it's way too cheap for the stat that defines everyone's damage, as well as figured stats, and (in 5th) how high your defenses are. What would you suggest? Using an OCV/DCV like system, like Fuzion did? Or something else? I'm not thinkng of combat here, I'm thinking of reworking the skill rules so that each stat point means something. Suppose INT skills were based on INT or less instead of 9+(INT/5). Characters with INT > 23 are exceedingly rare even in Champions. What's wrong with the Bleeding rules? Or were you just being terribly British? The present bleeding system is hard to use. 1st ed FH, frankly, had the best bleeding rules--bleed 1d6NND Does Body for each 5 Body of the wound; a 1 reduces bleeding, a 6 increases it. Don't forget to buy Paramedic skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitz Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 The main alteration I'd like to see is in the generisization (is that even a word?) of some of the powers. The powers list still, after all this time, betray the origins of the system as a superhero genre game. I'd conflate Energy Blast, Hand Attack, and the Killing Attacks into a single "Attack" power which could then be narrowed with modifiers like "Ranged" and "Can't add STR to damage". Similarly, the defensive powers could easily be combined. Armour, Force Field and Force Wall could be simply differentiated by modifiers. After all, what really differentiates a Force Field from Armour? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Originally posted by Nelijal Gee, I thought the whole point of RPGs was an excuse to eat junk food and NOT get to bed at a reasonable hour. Spoken like someone under the age of 35. Keith "I still eat too much junk food" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelijal Posted March 22, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Originally posted by keithcurtis Spoken like someone under the age of 35. Keith "I still eat too much junk food" Curtis Just turned 41, but I'm young at heart (and single). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Originally posted by Nelijal Just turned 41, but I'm young at heart (and single). "Heart," in this case, being truly the operative word here. (This from a man about to turn 42.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 For me, I wouldn't want to see a redesign, just a fine tuning, as FREd was to the BBB; so no changes to stat costs, figured chars, or power frameworks. Anything so extensive as to force redesign or rebuild of pretty much all characters is a bad thing. Readjust Damage Shield. I'm sticking with fourth on this one. Keep the fixed haymaker. Haymaker was a x1.5 attack originally but then so were martial arts, and the cost of MA depended on STR. I felt that when MA went to added damage, Haymaker should have as well. Adjust Extra DC in Martial Arts to be 5 pts, and affect all HtH damage. Just like an HA bought 0 end. Keep +/- 1/4's. I like them. Forcing larger looses granularity. I'd like to see more granularity for skills, but don't honestly see a workable way that can handle stats from 10-60. Maybe the 7 + (Cha/3) thing. Dunno. I wouldn't want the base roll for a 10 Cha be much less than a 10, and wouldn't want a 20 to be much more than a 14-15. But doing a roll under Char or 5 + (Cha/2) might work for heroic, once you get into superheroic the number can get silly that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Originally posted by Fitz The main alteration I'd like to see is in the generisization (is that even a word?) of some of the powers. The powers list still, after all this time, betray the origins of the system as a superhero genre game. I'd conflate Energy Blast, Hand Attack, and the Killing Attacks into a single "Attack" power which could then be narrowed with modifiers like "Ranged" and "Can't add STR to damage". Similarly, the defensive powers could easily be combined. Armour, Force Field and Force Wall could be simply differentiated by modifiers. After all, what really differentiates a Force Field from Armour? Hey, energy blasts show up in multiple genres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 I'd still prefer Killing Attacks be a +2 Advantage rather than a separate Power. It would allow them to avoid such absurdities as "Ranged Killing Attack; No Range -1/2". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Originally posted by Trebuchet I'd still prefer Killing Attacks be a +2 Advantage rather than a separate Power. It would allow them to avoid such absurdities as "Ranged Killing Attack; No Range -1/2". this is called a HTH killing attack and shouldn't be allowed any other way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 You can go way too far with reductionism, you know, the ATTACK power that you have to buy advantages on to give it ANY descriptors besides xd6 damage. I like having my powers a little more differentiated than that if only to keep the page length and reading time down on character sheets. There are other sins that can be committed though - like Mayfair DC's Bio-energy blast, Lightning, Heat Vision, etc. that seemed like they were arbitrarily chosen to represent a limited number of aspects of ranged attacks. I like the Hero take on this far more than anything else I have seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Originally posted by Trebuchet I'd still prefer Killing Attacks be a +2 Advantage rather than a separate Power. It would allow them to avoid such absurdities as "Ranged Killing Attack; No Range -1/2". No way! It'd be far too easy to stack advantages on the power and make killing attacks way too lethal. For example, currently adding AP to a 4D6 killing attack would cost 30 pts. If we take your suggestion, a 4D6 killing attack would still have 60 active points, but adding AP would only cost 10 points! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamePhil Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Originally posted by Trebuchet I'd still prefer Killing Attacks be a +2 Advantage rather than a separate Power. It would allow them to avoid such absurdities as "Ranged Killing Attack; No Range -1/2". How so, unless you're just referring to the name? EB, Killing (+2), No Range (-1/2). Originally posted by tiger this is called a HTH killing attack and shouldn't be allowed any other way Which you then apply the Does Not Add STR Limitation, a -1/2 value. OK, that seems fair. Originally posted by Agent X I like having my powers a little more differentiated than that if only to keep the page length and reading time down on character sheets. This doesn't have to be a problem: you don't write on the character sheet Attack, Ranged, Spreadable, No STR Add, and so on. You build the Energy Blast Power as Attack, Ranged, Spreadable, No STR Add, and then just write down EB on your character sheet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamePhil Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Originally posted by Gary No way! It'd be far too easy to stack advantages on the power and make killing attacks way too lethal. That, too. Really, since the average damage of a 1d6 Killing Attack is close to that of a 3d6 EB, it has to increase the base cost to be in line with other powers. Not only that, but if creating the Power from scratch it should also be Versus Limited Defense (common defense) and have some Advantage (or possibly Limited Extra Dice) for the occasional shots with x5 Stun Multiples, and the whole thing needs a (small) Limitation for those x1 Stun Multiples... Hey, I said I'd like to see such rules, I never said that it would be easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 To side rail this, I would like digging split into two seperate aspects to one power, speed and Str, (speed=2pts, Str=3 pts) Why? So I can create the Sand Schrew (Diggin 10" Def 5) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamePhil Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Originally posted by JmOz To side rail this, I would like digging split into two seperate aspects to one power, speed and Str, (speed=2pts, Str=3 pts) I was actually surprised that wasn't there. Ah, well, no fast digging for you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Splitting Tunneling Concidentally, I posted a question about why you can't do this very thing to Steve today on the "Rules Questions" forum. Here's his reply: The main reason would be that the rules make no provision for that sort of thing; they're pretty explicit about tying the velocity and "strength" of Tunneling together. However, the GM could certainly allow it if he wanted to. That might be particularly appropriate in, for example, an FH campaign that takes place entirely in an underground realm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kartoffel Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Nanobot ink with capable of seeking and retrieving the segments of the book and/or posted updates to the book for any given circumstances. Telepathic UI would be nice too. Metaphysician 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirdbase Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Re: Okay.... Originally posted by BobGreenwade Actually I have several potential candidates for reform, some of which Steve has already addressed in either the FAQ or a HEROglyphs article (in Digital Hero). However, the only one I'm really adamant about is Telekinesis. When I saw in 4th Edition that the cost had been raised, I was crushed, because I could no longer make one of my favorite characters viable in a game with Active Point limits. My fix for Telekinesis is to 1) return the cost to the earlier 1 point for 1 STR, and 2) completely remove the Punch/Squeeze aspect of the Power. That should never have been introduced in the first place, or at most should have been a Power Advantage. It's a violation of Meta-Rule #5, "One Power should not be used to do what another already does." Currently, for 60 points I can lift and move things with 40 STR, and I can also do 8d6 of damage -- but isn't doing Normal damage at range the function of Energy Blast? Then again, if my superheroes have a limit of 60 Active Points for their Powers, that 8d6 is going to be a bit wimpy, so I'd better buy a real Energy Blast at 12d6 -- except that I can still do 8d6 damage with Telekinesis. But why would I want to, if I can do 12d6 with Energy Blast? I could go on and on about this, but I think you all get the basic idea. I have serious problems with TK also, and PK too. Here are parts of two characters (assume all other characteristics, skills, powers are the same). DEX 20 30 pts OCV/DCV 7 EGO 10 0 pts ECV 3 SPD 4 10 pts Telekinesis 40 STR 60 pts Total pts 115 DEX 10 0 pts OCV/DCV 3 EGO 20 20 pts ECV 7 SPD 4 20 pts Psychokinesis 13 STR +1 BoECV, +1 Does Body 60 pts (see pg 162 FREd) [Psychokinesis 15 STR +3/4 BoECV, +1 Does Body 74 pts (see pg 162 FREd)] Total pts 115[114] In both cases the defender uses his DCV (pg 147 FREd) The second Psychokinetic has range penalties lim on Telekinesis What is wrong or right with this? This means that your 60 Active Point character can do either 2.5d6 or 3d6 or 4d6 as an EB Those two characters have the same chances to hit, but the second would have trouble hurting anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelijal Posted March 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2003 Wow, there have been some impressive discussions on this thread. HERO certainly has a very dedicated (committed?) fan base. Just so Steve and the other authors don't think I was being unappreciative by starting this thread with FREd not even a year old (I don't live far from Steve, and I don't want to get beat up ), I started it as a joke, just to see what kind of input I would get. I certainly don't expect to see SHREd on bookshelves any time soon; Steve's too busy working on our FH stuff. I underestimated the rabid passion of Herophiles. The thread has been very interesting to read, and turned out to be very informative. You guys are much smarter than I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted March 25, 2003 Report Share Posted March 25, 2003 Don't worry, Nelijal, no offense taken. 6E is many, many years away, so it's not like I'll remember any of this, but it's interesting to see what people are thinking at this particular moment in time, almost 1 year exactly after 5E's release. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted March 25, 2003 Report Share Posted March 25, 2003 Originally posted by Steve Long Don't worry, Nelijal, no offense taken. 6E is many, many years away, so it's not like I'll remember any of this, but it's interesting to see what people are thinking at this particular moment in time, almost 1 year exactly after 5E's release. So steve, what would you have done differently knowing what you know now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted March 25, 2003 Report Share Posted March 25, 2003 Reduce the cost of Combat Sense to a more reasonable level and better define the circumstances when it can be used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 25, 2003 Report Share Posted March 25, 2003 Originally posted by JmOz So steve, what would you have done differently knowing what you know now? Not make joking suggestions for nicknames for his books? C'mon, JmOz, you don't really expect a lawyer to answer a question that controversial in print, do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirdbase Posted March 25, 2003 Report Share Posted March 25, 2003 Originally posted by Nelijal Wow, there have been some impressive discussions on this thread. HERO certainly has a very dedicated (committed?) fan base. No HERO has a fan base that needs to be committed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted March 25, 2003 Report Share Posted March 25, 2003 Originally posted by Lord Liaden Not make joking suggestions for nicknames for his books? C'mon, JmOz, you don't really expect a lawyer to answer a question that controversial in print, do you? Not really. but I was hoping he would admit to screwing up Damage Shield (The continous thing is wrong, makes it at its most basic level wrong, note he even knows it, thus why he uses the KHA power instead, so he can side step and add a additional -1/2 lim) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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