I made the GM cry....

[Lucius]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

Do you have a superior solution?

 

Not off hand.

 

I never said I disapproved of either the players' actions or the decision to reward extra XP for it. If there's a better solution I'm not thinking of it right now.

 

I was just thinking through possible consequences. Speaking of which while this plot was foiled and the villain's plans set back by a couple of months, the villain remains at large to try the same or a different scheme - and now knows that there is someone out there with mental powers who opposes their nefarious plans.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Just for a change, here's a backandforthtrian

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

Speaking of which while this plot was foiled and the villain's plans set back by a couple of months' date=' the villain remains at large to try the same or a different scheme - and now knows that there is someone out there with mental powers who opposes their nefarious plans.[/quote']

 

Good point. Villains should learn from their failures, and this would be the perfect opportunity for him to work on some sort of mental construct / attack that could lie dormant in an underling's mind until a different mentalist uses his powers on said underling. It could be a warning signal on a Trigger, or a Telepathy Drain Damage Shield, or maybe even an Invisible Telepathy to pick the hero's mind while he's picking the minion's. I also like the thought of him planting false memories -- perhaps Images to Mental Group -- to deceive the mentalist. ("What do you mean, the mayor isn't involved in this plot?! I SAW HIM! It was in that thug's mind, just before the mind erasure kicked in!")

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

I was just thinking through possible consequences. Speaking of which while this plot was foiled and the villain's plans set back by a couple of months' date=' the villain remains at large to try the same or a different scheme - and now knows that there is someone out there with mental powers who opposes their nefarious plans.[/quote']

 

Definitely - the scheme has been foiled but the schemer is still out there. He can rebuild his infrastructure, maybe elsewhere in the hopes of staying under the radar this time. He might try to eliminate the pesky hero who thwarted him (he's a mentalist and he knows who he had under his control, so a little telepathy can soon let him know who stopped him). Lots of good, genre-consistent material to be made from this lurking possible Master Villain.

[Ravor]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

Gotta love the OP's group, although personally I think I would have awarded the bonus XP but have retconned a little alarm in the villian's head provided that I thought the villian would have been smart enough to think of it.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe in screwing the PCs over but at the same time I understand that sometimes the various NPCs are simply going to be smarter than I am.

[Balabanto]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

1) I wasn't trying to "throw you under the bus". I'm not even sure how that phrase would apply, but whatever.

2) The fact that there may be repercussions does not automatically mean it's a bad solution. In fact, according you your post it would actually be an in genre solution. You claim you wouldn't award XP for this because it's not creative, then point out it is a perfectly acceptable solution according to the source material the game is based on. So you only award XP if the players ignore tropes and break genre convention or what? Well the GM was suprized so it seems he thought it was creative, he didn't foresee it going that way and he planned the adventure! Also, you didn't answer my question:

 

 

EDIT: In an attempt to pose the question in a less extreme manner. What would you consider a "creative" solution worthy of XP? Even if their solution wasn't "creative" according to your standards, why is solving the problem in a non-(physically)-violent way that, according to your own arguement is totally fitting with the genre conventions of a four-color comic, not worth XP? Saying you wouldn't give them XP for dealing with the adventure in that manner heavily implies they did something "wrong". What, in your opinion, is the "right" solution to the situation?

 

The right solution to this situation is to find a way to isolate the mentalist from his followers WITHOUT HARMING ANY OF THEM. Eating up a month and a half of people's lives in a situation like this effectively creates a half a dozen more supervillains. This is key to concepts like "The Superman Revenge Squad" and similar tropes where the heroes didn't think before they randomly took a bunch of actions. It really sounds like the characters didn't do enough research before dropping the hammer here. Lord knows I wouldn't be saying "thank you" if a month and a half of my life disappeared.

 

One of the things that makes superheroes heroic is that they put themselves in the shoes of people the villains victimize. There was no such attempt here.

[Greywind]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

Not really. A lot of superheroes aren't about helping the victim, but stopping the bad guy. This was a major stumbling block between Batman and Robin when Dick went off to college.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

The right solution to this situation is to find a way to isolate the mentalist from his followers WITHOUT HARMING ANY OF THEM. Eating up a month and a half of people's lives in a situation like this effectively creates a half a dozen more supervillains. This is key to concepts like "The Superman Revenge Squad" and similar tropes where the heroes didn't think before they randomly took a bunch of actions. It really sounds like the characters didn't do enough research before dropping the hammer here. Lord knows I wouldn't be saying "thank you" if a month and a half of my life disappeared.

 

One of the things that makes superheroes heroic is that they put themselves in the shoes of people the villains victimize. There was no such attempt here.

 

I sure as hell would be. If they hadn't intervened I could have been arrested or killed by regular police force. Hell, I could have killed someone else while under the mindcontrol. They saved my life! And I don't have to go through the mental trauma knowing what I had been forced to do.

 

Also, who says finding the mentalist would undo the mind control?

 

The fact that a certain solution doesn't match your specific playstyle doesn't make it "wrong", especially when you point out yourself that it is completely in genre for a 4-colored or silver age game. In fact, I'd go as far to say that your insistence that the solution fits the tone of the game and source material goes a long way towards discrediting your initial arguement of it not being the right/creative solution.

[Lucius]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

Perhaps not "better" but I do see an alternative.

 

Just keep the gang under (non-psychic) surveilance until they lead you back to the Boss.

 

THEN start scanning minions (to deprive the Boss of support) before confronting Boss/calling the cops on the Boss/whatever else you do to the Boss.

 

A riskier procedure, in more ways than one. But it might lead to a more permanent solution, or at least to having more information.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is in two minds about it

[John T]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

The right solution to this situation is to find a way to isolate the mentalist from his followers WITHOUT HARMING ANY OF THEM. Eating up a month and a half of people's lives in a situation like this effectively creates a half a dozen more supervillains. This is key to concepts like "The Superman Revenge Squad" and similar tropes where the heroes didn't think before they randomly took a bunch of actions. It really sounds like the characters didn't do enough research before dropping the hammer here. Lord knows I wouldn't be saying "thank you" if a month and a half of my life disappeared.

I don't really get the inevitability of creating enemies here solely by causing 6 weeks of someone's life to disappear, but obviously YMDV, which is certainly fair.

 

One of the things that makes superheroes heroic is that they put themselves in the shoes of people the villains victimize. There was no such attempt here.

To be equally fair, we don't know the immediate aftermath of these events. Would certainly be much improved if:

 

"As heroes with a responsibility for the safety of our fellow citizens, we feel compelled to inform you that the last six weeks of your memory have been erased. While this was done to thwart the plans of an as yet unknown assailant, we can assure you that you were engaged in extremely illegal and emotionally damaging activities during the period in question. At the time, we felt our actions were necessary, but accept full responsibility for the potential consequences to you. With that in mind, we are at your disposal should you desire to eventually regain these memories and deal with them constructively. This is a choice we would strongly encourage, though you are each free to let these missing memories remain missing, at your discretion."

[Balabanto]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

See, clearly this is a case where telling them this is as bad as NOT telling them. Which means this is clearly NOT a four color scenario. If all choices are equally bad, it's not a four color solution.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

You argued it WAS a four colored scenario and none of the facts have changed since the original post. It seems you're just moving the goalpost where ever you need it to justify your arguement that the GM is wrong and the player's solution is somehow badwrongfun. Also, two things being equal does not always mean they are both bad, they could both be good or neutral. I'd say this situation is relatively neutral. Sure there are consequences, but they seem much less severe than several other alternatives.

 

And since you originally brought up the Marvel Silver-age 4-color example, remember that Professor X occasionally mind wiped people in the original comics, including a total personality wipe of one of the X-men's first villains (a teleporter they couldn't stop) and whole neighborhoods (innocent) of people to not remember a giant mutant fight had just taken place since they were still a secret team at the time. Those are 4-color examples from the same era or earlier than your Ultron example and were considered completely fine at the time.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

The right solution to this situation is to find a way to isolate the mentalist from his followers WITHOUT HARMING ANY OF THEM. Eating up a month and a half of people's lives in a situation like this effectively creates a half a dozen more supervillains. This is key to concepts like "The Superman Revenge Squad" and similar tropes where the heroes didn't think before they randomly took a bunch of actions. It really sounds like the characters didn't do enough research before dropping the hammer here. Lord knows I wouldn't be saying "thank you" if a month and a half of my life disappeared.

 

So you would prefer to remain part of the mind controlled drug distribution workforce of the mentalist? I'm not seeing that "something different we could do that would better help the victims" solution. I interpret this as "the scenario cannot play out as a four colour scenario under any circumstances".

 

I sure as hell would be. If they hadn't intervened I could have been arrested or killed by regular police force. Hell' date=' I could have killed someone else while under the mindcontrol. They saved my life! And I don't have to go through the mental trauma knowing what I had been forced to do. [/quote']

 

Bingo - losing 6 weeks of memory is a problem. The consequences of NOT losing 6 weeks of memory is a far worse problem.

 

Also' date=' who says finding the mentalist would undo the mind control?[/quote']

 

Not the rules, for a starter.

 

Perhaps not "better" but I do see an alternative.

 

Just keep the gang under (non-psychic) surveilance until they lead you back to the Boss.

 

THEN start scanning minions (to deprive the Boss of support) before confronting Boss/calling the cops on the Boss/whatever else you do to the Boss.

 

A riskier procedure, in more ways than one. But it might lead to a more permanent solution, or at least to having more information.

 

Now we get into an interesting Bronze Age dilemma for the Supers, don't we? The impact on the victims is, at best, identical (we still wipe out six weeks of memory), and possibly worse (this takes time, so he loses more memory; the villain uses the mind control before we can scan them out and places the victim in a more dangerous situation). What's our priority - minimize risk to the victims, or enhance our prospects of finding and stopping the mentalist? Of course, in an Iron Age game, sucks to be the guy who got Mind Controlled, but his./their death will help stop the villain, so forget about his safety - and if he attacks us, hit him full force.

 

I don't really get the inevitability of creating enemies here solely by causing 6 weeks of someone's life to disappear, but obviously YMDV, which is certainly fair.

 

To be equally fair, we don't know the immediate aftermath of these events. Would certainly be much improved if:

 

"As heroes with a responsibility for the safety of our fellow citizens, we feel compelled to inform you that the last six weeks of your memory have been erased. While this was done to thwart the plans of an as yet unknown assailant, we can assure you that you were engaged in extremely illegal and emotionally damaging activities during the period in question. At the time, we felt our actions were necessary, but accept full responsibility for the potential consequences to you. With that in mind, we are at your disposal should you desire to eventually regain these memories and deal with them constructively. This is a choice we would strongly encourage, though you are each free to let these missing memories remain missing, at your discretion."

 

To me, the heroic choice is to free the victims and make whatever efforts can be made to mitigate any damage. The possibility that the victim had a significant life event in those six weeks, such as getting married, was mentioned. What about the possibility that the fiancee left him because of his actions while under mind control, that he may have been arrested and jailed for drug crimes, or even killed defending the boss' interests? Since we're playing "worst possible consequences", what if we DON'T scan them out of mind control and, two weeks later, a gang attack on this competitor drug dealer burns the factory to the ground, killing most of the mind control victims and leaving their families with no means of support?

 

See' date=' clearly this is a case where telling them this is as bad as NOT telling them. Which means this is clearly NOT a four color scenario. If all choices are equally bad, it's not a four color solution.[/quote']

 

You argued it WAS a four colored scenario and none of the facts have changed since the original post. It seems you're just moving the goalpost where ever you need it to justify your arguement that the GM is wrong and the player's solution is somehow badwrongfun. Also, two things being equal does not always mean they are both bad, they could both be good or neutral. I'd say this situation is relatively neutral. Sure there are consequences, but they seem much less severe than several other alternatives.

 

And since you originally brought up the Marvel Silver-age 4-color example, remember that Professor X occasionally mind wiped people in the original comics, including a total personality wipe of one of the X-men's first villains (a teleporter they couldn't stop) and whole neighborhoods (innocent) of people to not remember a giant mutant fight had just taken place since they were still a secret team at the time. Those are 4-color examples from the same era or earlier than your Ultron example and were considered completely fine at the time.

 

Excellent examples - the Blob was also put back under wraps, IIRC, forgetting he was a mutant and returning to life as a carnival freak for a short period of time. Four colour is, in part, a lot about how the consequences are handled. Spider-Man's player probably didn't expect the GM to say "OK, you caught her - but catching her snapped her neck and killed her anyway". In a silver age comic, she would have been rescued, which is one reason the Death of Gwen Stacy is widely considered one of the first Bronze Age comics -the consequences became more realistic, and more severe. If you promise a four colour game, then enforce bronze or iron age tropes, I suggest you have mislead the players.

[Christopher]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

So you would prefer to remain part of the mind controlled drug distribution workforce of the mentalist? I'm not seeing that "something different we could do that would better help the victims" solution. I interpret this as "the scenario cannot play out as a four colour scenario under any circumstances".

How about asking somebody who knows more about this? As it sounds, it was a book example of "Mental Transfrom: Into Loyal Slave". There are certainly more powerfull superheroic mentalist out there and somebody like them could laugh about this ("I haven't seen such a mental trap since 1955"), put out his Telephaty w/ "IPE to Telepathy Traps" and just do it without damage to the victims and extract the entire information the enemy wanted to hide...

[bigbywolfe]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

How about asking somebody who knows more about this? As it sounds' date=' it was a book example of "Mental Transfrom: Into Loyal Slave". [b']There are certainly more powerfull superheroic mentalist out there[/b] and somebody like them could laugh about this ("I haven't seen such a mental trap since 1955"), put out his Telephaty w/ "IPE to Telepathy Traps" and just do it without damage to the victims and extract the entire information the enemy wanted to hide...

 

Why is that certain, exactly? For all we know this was a minor side project of Menton, the most powerful mentalist in the setting. You also fail to address every other arguement raised, includung the most basic one, that this was completwly in genre for a 4-color silver age game and even the GM was suprized/impressed (if also frusterated) by the creativity of the players.

[megaplayboy]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

Not really. A lot of superheroes aren't about helping the victim' date=' but stopping the bad guy. This was a major stumbling block between Batman and Robin when Dick went off to college.[/quote']

 

Actually, it might be entertaining to feature a run with an NPC hero team that has all the "wrong" motives to be superheroes--one's a sadist who just enjoys beating the crap out of "bad guys"(and/or a masochist who enjoys getting hit), one's a glory hound who's only in it for attention and adulation, one's a sellout who just wants all that sweet endorsement money, one's an exhibitionist who enjoys running around in skimpy outfits, and one's just doing it to get laid. You could probably come up with a few more--one's a racist out to prove their supremacy, one's mentally ill and this is their form of therapy, one's just eager to use their powers any chance they get, etc.

[Ravor]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

megaplayboy have you been evesdropping on me, cause that sounds alot like my group.

[Gary Miles]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

You argued it WAS a four colored scenario and none of the facts have changed since the original post. It seems you're just moving the goalpost where ever you need it to justify your arguement that the GM is wrong and the player's solution is somehow badwrongfun. Also, two things being equal does not always mean they are both bad, they could both be good or neutral. I'd say this situation is relatively neutral. Sure there are consequences, but they seem much less severe than several other alternatives.

 

And since you originally brought up the Marvel Silver-age 4-color example, remember that Professor X occasionally mind wiped people in the original comics, including a total personality wipe of one of the X-men's first villains (a teleporter they couldn't stop) and whole neighborhoods (innocent) of people to not remember a giant mutant fight had just taken place since they were still a secret team at the time. Those are 4-color examples from the same era or earlier than your Ultron example and were considered completely fine at the time.

Exactly. IIRC, when the space shuttle crash that created Phoenix happened, the Prof mind-wiped an entire major airport full of civilians.

[Christopher]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

Why is that certain' date=' exactly? For all we know this was a minor side project of Menton, the most powerful mentalist in the setting.[/quote']

So you know this setting and are 100% certain that there were no others? Or did the player ever bother to look. When you have menton on the loose but nobody anywhere who can undo a simple mental transform, then the s**t has hit the fan...

 

You also fail to address every other arguement raised' date=' includung the most basic one, that this was completwly in genre for a 4-color silver age game and even the GM was suprized/impressed (if also frusterated) by the creativity of the players.[/quote']

You seem to mistake me. I do not question that it was the apropirate thing:

 

It was clear that the mind wipe also erased the control. Mostly the bad guy didn't want anyone to see the lackey's memories of him. It was clear from the people that had the mindwipe by accident that there were no afteraffects - so having the decision we did was a heroic one. The game is very 4 color (innocents are no longer mind controlled, or doing bad things - a win. Followup from heroes to help - a win.)

And re-intigration was handled by the team, and their extended help (money, connections etc.)

 

Okay' date=' then the bad guy actually had a plan with built-in self destruct...[/quote']

 

I meerly point out an option that might have been overlooked. It was the right decision (under all aspects noted so far), but only if nobody realised that there might have been ways to disable them and undo the trap/slaving without wiping the memory - just by searching for a mentalist who could do this. This might also have been a way for the GM to salvage the adventure.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

Actually' date=' it might be entertaining to feature a run with an NPC hero team that has all the "wrong" motives to be superheroes--one's a sadist who just enjoys beating the crap out of "bad guys"(and/or a masochist who enjoys getting hit), one's a glory hound who's only in it for attention and adulation, one's a sellout who just wants all that sweet endorsement money, one's an exhibitionist who enjoys running around in skimpy outfits, and one's just doing it to get laid. You could probably come up with a few more--one's a racist out to prove their supremacy, one's mentally ill and this is their form of therapy, one's just eager to use their powers any chance they get, etc.[/quote']

 

Sounds like The Flashmen, a 'hero' group who was actually not that heroic. From the sourcebook "Allies".

(After first reading the book, my first thought was "With friends like these...")

[megaplayboy]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

Sounds like The Flashmen, a 'hero' group who was actually not that heroic. From the sourcebook "Allies".

(After first reading the book, my first thought was "With friends like these...")

 

I generally think long-running PC teams benefit from having at least a couple rivalries with NPC heroes, one with generally decent competitors and one with a "bunch of jerks". The jerks help them appreciate that their other rivals aren't jerks.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

The situation is described as having occurred in a Teen Champions game (or at least, with teen-age characters). When was the last time you observed a teenager making a decision on adequate information but inadequate experience? As an NCO in the Air Force, I have seen teen-aged Airmen do things that I, as an experienced troop would not. If the results aren't perfect, well, after all, they're teenagers. They'll learn. Eventually.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

The situation is described as having occurred in a Teen Champions game (or at least' date=' with teen-age characters). When was the last time you observed a teenager making a decision on adequate information but inadequate experience? As an NCO in the Air Force, I have seen teen-aged Airmen do things that I, as an experienced troop would not. If the results aren't perfect, well, after all, they're teenagers. They'll learn. Eventually. [/quote']

 

Yeah. We were the "New Champions" and all teens and as I recall (after all these years) it was one of our first adventures... if not the first period. It was in the first three for sure.

[phoenix240]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

I don't see where Lord Mhoram's group did anything "wrong". The freed the subjects with a minimal amount of violence and risk of physical injury or mental trauma. Apparently the villain slipped away but that happens. The subjects lost memories but it comes acroass as highly adversarial GMing to have ALL of them become the PCs sworn enemies over 6 weeks where they might have had their entire lives destroyed (or lost) otherwise. I can see some possible resentment, particularly if the PCs were callous, careless or glib about what happened but otherwise it seems like the villain should have made some enemies.

 

Unless this is set in the Marvel universe where the human population seems to have been replaced by demons of Spite (and I say this as a fan of Marvel).

[Balabanto]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

Really? A minimum of mental trauma? If six weeks went missing from my life, I'd do everything possible to figure out what happened. Six weeks weren't casually removed. They were stolen from me by a bad man, and the problem exacerbated by an ignorant kid.

 

It really depends on the length of the campaign. The reason why I say this solution is generally BS is because people don't think about consequences before they do them, and most campaigns don't really last long enough for consequences like this to come into play. It's what I refer to as "I know the campaign is only going to last six months to a year, so I don't reasonably expect any fallout from taking this action."

[phoenix240]

Re: I made the GM cry....

 

Really? A minimum of mental trauma? If six weeks went missing from my life, I'd do everything possible to figure out what happened. Six weeks weren't casually removed. They were stolen from me by a bad man, and the problem exacerbated by an ignorant kid.

 

Yes, really. If the choice was losing my life, livelihood and reputation being under the mental domination of that Bad Man who using me as a pawn as part of his schemes.The so called ignorants kids figured out a way to free the civilians with a minimum of harm. Yes, six weeks is a good chunk of time but its not my entire life. Apparently it wasn't even six weeks of my normal life but the time I was helpless pawn forced to perform who knows what criminals acts. It's not like they maliciously erased six weeks of my most precious memories. I'd think at least people would prefer to forget six weeks as a drug lord's mind controlled thrall.

 

Would there be some loss? Sure, but it seems like a loss less than the alternatives and with time, couselling and support, they'd recover. Blaming the PCs/Heroes seems like more Rusty Iron "Damend if you do, damned if you don't" themed gaming. In a game pushed as "Four Color" it comes across like the GM is ticked and out to punish the players for ruining "his" plot.

 

Its almost like becoming the life long foe of the paramedic who amputed your leg that pinned under some wreckage to get you out of fire because she didn't figure some way to lift the collapsed building. Not every solution is going to be perfect but this one seems reasonable. And I haven't seen any "perfect solution" proposed.Consequences are one thing, adversarial Gming quite another.