My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

[Azimer the Mad]

So…

 

In my game, my players were fighting Empress Vhan, of a Billion Dimensions, from CKC. They were called by a friendly alien race to protect their newfound world from the Empress’ colonization. The Empress grants them 30 hours to either convince the aliens to accept a bloodless transfer of power, or prepare to fight her champions.

 

We have one player that always bucks the authority of the leader, and the group. He usually screws things over for himself, because he has an eye for the ladies (and is married with kids), and a habit for taking elaborate revenge that turns minor enemies into deadly threats. Lately, players believe he’s been deliberately trying to avoid combat because he’s there for role-play alone, and feel like he’s less help than he could be.

 

He’s also a very good friend and has been in the game for 3 years, since the beginning. Thought I should mention that.

 

So, when they land, PCs 1-4 attempt to help the aliens try to resist the Empire in a support so the PCs can draw fire. Problem PC splits off from the group, and travels the world convincing races to join the Empire.

 

Now, it has been well-and-truly nailed into the heads of everyone in the group that giving the Empress a foothold in our dimension would lead to the conquering of Earth and the Solar System. Problem Player’s stated goal IS THIS, since he is pissed in character at the U.S. government and believes that Empress conquering the Earth would be a good thing.

 

He joins the PCs for the combat when his persuasion fails. They win (barely). However, now that he’s heading back to Earth, he’s trying surreptitiously out-of-character to convince players not to mention this to the team’s financial backer. The team is a JLA/Avengers level team, with the appropriate level of standards, and he “doesn’t want to deal with†any repercussions for trying to betray humanity.

 

Someone’s going to tell, and I can’t see any reason in character not to boot his (already been on probation and kicked off) ass off the team for deliberately betraying the Earth. Thus, I may have to ask him Saturday to retire his character, as there is no way the some of the PCs or many NPCs would cooperate with him. I’d ask him to make a new character, and he’d get pissed and leave. Covering it up would seem completely incongruous for me in character, and I don’t think I could run the game.

 

However, OOC, players are getting pissed with him and considering him grating (in this and other games), and sometimes he argues with the team leader just because he considers the player whiny.

 

What the Heck do I do?

[Jhamin]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

OK. It sounds like this player is drawing a line in the sand. He has disrupted the game, annoyed his fellow players, backstabbed his fellow characters, and practically dared the GM to kick him out.

 

As I see it, you can figure out why he feels he has to do this and try and reconcile him with the group.

 

Or you can take the dare and kick him out of the team/force him out of the group.

 

As the first option does not preclude the second, but the second sort of precludes the first, I would do my best to try to figure out why this longtime player is having so many problems with the game and his fellow players.

 

If that doesn't work, then you can always ask him to leave.

[Kristopher]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

I pretty much second what Jhamin had to say. Your friend has put you in a very bad position, and it's time to take him aside, in private, and ask him what the heck is going on.

[OddHat]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

It's not a game problem, it's a problem with your friend and how he feels about the group. Talk to him directly about it, outside of the game and face to face. Don't be confrontational or accusatory, but spell out exactly what you see as the problem and ask him what's going on and what he wants to do.

[Blue]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

You've got to do what's appropriate to the campaign and let the chips fall where they may.

[Rune]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

I agree with Jhamin that you should very nicely find out why this player apparently isn't having a good time with the campaign. It seems to me that this level of disruption might not be limited to this particular character, so a replacement character might not solve the underlying problem.

 

As for the character, it seems like getting booted off the team is the likely minimal consequence of his actions. After some significant act of penance and time, I suppose the character might be allowed to return, but that may not be a practical. If people want to play hardball, the character might be charged with conspiracy to overthrow the United States government by assisting a hostile foreign power.

[proditor]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

Jumping on the "me too" bandwagon, I think the others summed it up pretty darn well. Now since as you have stated, he is a good friend and has been gaming with you for 3 years now, just for your own peace of mind I think you need to find out why he's doing all of this. I mean, yes, the game should play out as appropos for those involved, but this is a good friend. To me, that's always worth more than a good game. Just my 2 cents.

[JMHammer]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

There's always Mind Control to get the character to behave differently. Good luck using that method to get the player to change...

[Starlord]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

There has been many of these types of threads come down the pike 'lo these many years, and everyone always goes the old 'for the good of the game' pathway, including myself.

 

Even though said friend may be the one clearly in the wrong, is it wrong to ask this question, "Is it worth possibly losing a good friend, just to play a silly game 'correctly." Does everyone come by good friends so easily?

 

Just askin'.

[dbsousa]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

This seems to be an out of game problem. Talk to the player, and tell him that you don't want to run a game that pits player against player, and ask him if he is willing to change his mode of play for the good of the game. If the player is willing to change his behaviour, here is how you fix the game.

 

Let the PC's report back. Have a big showy confrontation. The big muckety muck kicks him off the team. All of a sudden, the player's Actual Character bursts through the door, and yells "That's not me, it's an impostor". The alien posing as the character solliloquoys "That's right, I kidnapped you so I could mimic your powers. Now that I have samples of all your DNA, I have all your powers combined! No one can stop me now! Long live Empress Vhan! Bwa ha ha ha!".

 

Battle Royale ensues, PC's kick aliens butt, foiling Vhan's double secret backup plan.

[Guest Witch Doctor]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

In addition to everything else, I'd start thinking of how I can make the story better using the events that transpired.

Have the Empress seek revenge for his act of betrayal. Have her kidnap one of his kids and take it to be trained as a royal assassin sent to kill him.

Of course, the assassination attempt will fail (hopefully - it'd be better if the child didn't die in this attempt, but became a long time enemy), but he'll identify his child (hopefully) and resolve to take out the Empress.

Then play it be ear.

Getting rid of a character because they did something monumentally assanine prevents you from using all the great storylines that can spin off from such an event.

[Metaphysician]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

Why would V'Han punish him for betraying his universe to her??

 

And yes, pretty agreed with all of above. While there is nothing inherently wrong with the idea of one member deciding that its better off with V'Han taking over, it sounds like this is based on OOC motivations.

[Guest Witch Doctor]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

Why would V'Han punish him for betraying his universe to her??

 

And yes, pretty agreed with all of above. While there is nothing inherently wrong with the idea of one member deciding that its better off with V'Han taking over, it sounds like this is based on OOC motivations.

 

He tried to get the people to accept her rule, she may have assumed that that meant he was siding with her. Then he fought against her. That would be betrayal.

[RDU Neil]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

Gotta say "Me three" on all of this. It isn't about playing the game "correctly" but about why one PLAYER (this isn't a character thing) thinks its ok to do things in game which screw with everyone else's enjoyment... and then thinks he shouldn't be called on that.

 

You say this is a "good friend" but it doesn't sound like that is so. This is classic passive aggressive behavior... something that role playing allows to flourish. "That's not me! It's my character!" is the oldes saw in the book. Players act like assholes and then say, "But I was just role playing!"

 

That's crap, and you have to call him on it. If he was just role playing, he'd be just as excited about the cool stories that could be told when his character is turned in to the authorities. A good role player would say, "Yes, my character screwed you over... and when you turn the tables on him, that is completely fair. It should be fun to see what happens!"

 

THAT is role playing, because the player is open about accepting repercussions for his decisions. What you describe is the classic OOG issues, whatever they are, coming out in the game and the player not be responsible for his actions.

 

Have the out of game discussion... ask him what is going on. Let him respond, but never be swayed from "I'm not going to let you ruin the game for everyone else" line. You have to hold that line, or the social contract of the gaming group is voided. RPGs are a social manifestation... very unique... and they are not there to allow people to express the total shit side of themselves without being called on it. At it's best, role playing can be a very safe environment to grow socially, learn how to interact with people, and mature the player as a human being... but only if you call them on it.

 

Good luck.

[Rapier]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

Sit him down non-confrontationally. Go grab a cup o' joe and talk it over. I would wager that there is something about the campaign that the player is just not liking. Maybe he would like to have a greater role in world politics or believes that the earth has betrayed him or something. Maybe the player doesn't dig the combat so much and would like to see more RP and less combat. At least, lets hope that it is something campaign universe related.

 

Unfortunatley, I have the sneaking suspicion that there may be some OOC reason for this. It sounds like the player may have an issue with another player. That makes things a little more tricky. Talk to your friend and see if maybe you can't engineer some kind of reconciliation. Maybe you as a group need to step outside of gaming for a while. Go bowling, mini-golfing, go catch a movie. Hang out as a group. Maybe once the two players get to know each other a little better they will understand each other and get along more.

 

Assuming that everything DOES get worked out (and we all cross our fingers, knock on wood and light a candle for you), take a quick/cheap way out. You want to move past this as quickly and quiety as possible. Run a quick adventure about how the character was actually mind controlled/replaced with a doppleganger/cloned and was not actually himself. This quickly and non-confrontationally allows you (and the player and the rest of the team) an out without retiring the character etc. It also provides a fabulous opportunity for the player to do some quality role-playing (which sounds like his preference anyway).

 

I wish you the best of luck, and as always, we are here for ya.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

If I was reading this as a comic novel, I would LOVE it. The lone hero who is trying to get the Earth conquered in the vein hope of making the world a better place while all the heroes hate him for betraying them.

 

If he's really going for that, then maybe that's the way it should go. Players need to seperate their hated for the character and the player. Now if the player is just being a ****, well that's a different problem. And if that's the issue, do you want him in that game even though he's a good friend?

 

Now, otherwise....

 

Ask the players what they want. If they want his hero to rejoin the group, see if he willing to roleplay out the other heroes trying to convince him that the Empire really is EVIL while he makes pointed comments about why it is the LESSER of two evils.

 

If it is a Marvel Graphic Novel, the lone hero becomes the NPC misunderstood villian (And the player need to write up a new character, one that isn't so self-defeating and more of a team player).

 

If it is a Silver Age type campaign, the hero realizes to his horror, that he was completely wrong (at some point) and saves the heroes and the Earth, possibly sacrificing himself in the process (nobody could have surrived that). If he does so up later, he should have some interesting scar or perhaps cyberware.

 

My two cents.

 

Blue "Nobody understands me" Jogger

[Enforcer84]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

Kill him in secret and have him replaced with a SHIELD model LMD. That's what happened to this unit...er, me.

[Vondy]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

I recommend three steps:

 

1) follow through in character - the character is off the team, on trial, hosed, hunted down and killed, whatever. He's testing you. If you don't follow through the message your sending is: "screw with me - you can get away with it." And from the sounds of it he knows what he's about and is doing it on purpose.

 

2) don't protect him from his fellow players - they have every right to be annoyed and to react, to tell him what they think, or make pre-conditions for his continued involvement. I'd draw the line at torches and pitchforks, and as a GM I'd try to mediate, but were I a player in this group I'd be royally pissed.

 

3) pull him aside and pointedly ask him why he consistently bucks authority, undermines the group, and disrupts play. If he doesn't have a good reason - and boy I'd like to hear this one - consider passing the matter to the group for adjudication. As GM you are the chief arbiter, but the other players are his primary victims...

 

Gaming with a group (as opposed to solo games) is a team sport, not an individual competition. He needs to get on the same page - and the same team - as the other players (and to some extent the GM). "Role playing" is not an excuse for pathological sabotage. If he can't do that - then he needs to leave.

[Guest rbezold]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

It's not a game problem' date=' it's a problem with your friend [/quote']

 

Oddhat is right. Your friend is the problem, not the game. In fact, I will even go so far as to say he is using you to get away with antisocial behavior that he knows he couldn't otherwise. You say he would get pissed off and leave if he has to get a new character? I say he's bluffing. (If I don't get my way, you can't be my friend anymore and I'm going to bang my head against this here floor unitil you're sorry )

 

However...

 

If you don't want to go the confrontational route, there is another way. Said character is summoned by the President/UN Security Council. You see, the Queen gave them a moniter so they could watch the heroes 'inevitable' defeat, thereby destroying their will to resist. Guess what they saw instead? Tell your player that his disadvantages have been changed as follows:

1) No DNPC's. His wife and family will have nothing to do with him now, and he can't get them back unless he wants to buy them back as folowers.

 

2) Social Limit: Despised. Everyone on earth knows he's a rat.

 

3) Reputation: Ditto.

 

4) 10d6 Unluck! This represents 'unknown adversaries' who are trying to make his life hell for what he did.

 

Add it all up and make it balance. This means the character doesn't get any extra points, even if you have to reduce his base starting points to do it. THEN you tell him that the world will forgive him when he buys off these disadvantages, AND your other players has the option to reward him with 3 extra experince points if they want and agree.

 

Ex: You give out 2pts for a game. Player A and B think he did an okay job, but player C didn't, so he gets two points. The next game, you give out two again, but everyone thinks he did a good job, so he gets five.

 

If your player won't take this sledghammer-sized hint, you can absolutely rule him with the 10d6 unluck. If he can't handle it, tell him he has no choice.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

I vote for letting the chips fall where they may ICly. Let the PCs boot Problem Boy out of the party, drag him in for treason (against the whole world, no less!), and have the character hauled off to jail. I've done it in a game before. Then, when he makes his new character, inform him that the actions of Problem Boy have tightened up the entry requirements for any new applicants/recruits, and he'll be subject to a barrage of psychological screens ... meaning that another Problem Character won't pass.

 

If he's not willing to take the consequences of his actions, then it's obvious that even though you're friends, the gaming styles just don't mix.

[Agemegos]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

I think you have two problems, one in game and one out. Something is eating your friend, and he is consciously or unconsciously making this a problem for other people. You can't mend that by anything you do in the game. If you let it go on it will spoil your game and your other friends' game, but not help you problem friend.

 

What comes next out of game depends on your style and the nature of your relationship with your problem friend. If helping is appropriate and your style you might like to ask about his problem. If it's more your style, you might say "This game is supposed to be for everyone to enjoy: if you can't enjoy doing what all the others enjoy doing, perhaps you ought to find something else to do, and if you can enjoy it, start now." And of course if it's your style to ignore the problem until your game collapses in acrimony you can always do that.

 

Some people will tell you that you shouldn't let playing the game correctly interfere with your friendship. While that is true as far as it goes, I don't think that letting this guy spoil the game is going to solve his problem. So your choice is not between a good game and a harmonious friendship, but between losing a friend and losing both that friend and the game.

 

I used to be a very soft GM, and used to protect PCs from the results of player's bad choices. It spoiled the games and didn't make my friendships any better. In some ways a weekly RPG is like a weekly card game. It's not a good way to pass time with friends who don't like playing cards. And if something is making one friend act like a jerk over the cards, or insist on playing Hearts when everyone else is playing Eucre, it doesn't help to humour him or her: you don't even save your friendship.

 

Sort it out of game if that's your style. Ease the player out of the game if that's your style. Throw a tantie and sack the bum if that's your style. Stop playing the game if that's your style. Just don't expect that either enforcing or ignoring the consequences of the character's actions is going to mend a problem that a player has out of game.

[Haerandir]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

There has been many of these types of threads come down the pike 'lo these many years' date=' and everyone always goes the old 'for the good of the game' pathway, [b']including myself.[/b]

 

Even though said friend may be the one clearly in the wrong, is it wrong to ask this question, "Is it worth possibly losing a good friend, just to play a silly game 'correctly." Does everyone come by good friends so easily?

 

Just askin'.

 

I say, yes. Because the real issue is not 'whether we're playing a silly game correctly', but 'is this guy really acting like a good friend?' RDUNeil and some others have touched on this, but I'll say it right out: a player who behaves disruptively in an rpg is abusing your friendship. Bear in mind, the other players are (or should be) your friends, too. So, essentially, it's a situation where one of your friends is behaving abusively towards your other friends, and you. Even if an rpg isn't as important as, say, a marriage or a workplace, it needs to be addressed.

 

Having said that, I don't know any of the players involved, so I can't reliably diagnose the source of the problem. Maybe we're overreacting. Maybe the player honestly believes he's just 'role-playing his character', and won't be especially put out if you force him to retire his character. Maybe he has a legitimate complaint about the player of the team leader (or thinks he does). Certainly, the best thing to do is to talk to him about it. Find out if he's aware of how his actions are perceived by the other players and you. He might think things are going just fine, and would be horrified to learn that everyone else is angry. Or, maybe he will just believe that it confirms the 'rightness' of his behavior, at which point, you've got to cut your losses and kick him out of the group. If it costs you his friendship outside of the game, maybe that's really a sign that he wasn't much of a friend in the first place. He only has to make that decision for himself. You, as the GM and putative leader of the play group, have to take the welfare of all the group members into account. The worst thing you can do is keep an unhappy or disruptive player in your group. It generally won't make him happier, and the end result is that everyone ends up angry and you risk losing all of those friendships.

[dbsousa]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

It is entirely possible to be a good friend and not be abusing your friendship by being annoying in a game. If he were being a prick during Monoploy we wouldn't be having this discussion. As a theater director, I have encountered the actor who insists that his character would do something a certain way, when neither the text nor common sense supports it. In the context of a play, I have tremendous advantage, because I can steer an actor in ways that a GM can't, but I can't make him do something he doesn't want to do.

 

My advice to you is to confront him with the core of your argument:" Other players are not having fun." Let him give every argument he cares to make. concede every point. Then return to the core argument. "Other players are not having fun." He might rail some more; let him. But return. "Other players are not having fun." Don't get distracted by his side arguments, they are irrelavent to the core argument.

 

Eventually he will come to one of two points: He can either have fun with the group, or he cannot. Only he can decide what he wants to do. Don't let him tell you that he is being kicked out. He is choosing to have fun with the group, or to find another way.

[Haerandir]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

It is entirely possible to be a good friend and not be abusing your friendship by being annoying in a game.

 

It wasn't my intention to suggest that it wasn't. But when I see " one player that always bucks the authority of the leader, and the group"; "players believe he’s been deliberately trying to avoid combat ... and feel like he’s less help than he could be"; "he’s trying surreptitiously out-of-character to convince players not to mention this to the team’s financial backer... [because he] 'doesn’t want to deal with' any repercussions"; "players are getting pissed with him and considering him grating (in this and other games), and sometimes he argues with the team leader just because he considers the player whiny"; and so on, my "Not A Real Good Friend"-dar goes off.

 

The key terms being 'out-of-character' and 'other players' as opposed to 'in-character' and 'other characters'.

 

If he were being a prick during Monoploy we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

Maybe you and Starlord wouldn't, but I would. Assuming, of course, that I was an avid Monopoly player who participated in a weekly Monopoly group with my close friends, and the issue related to out-of-game concerns, and not just some tripe about "Player A never builds Hotels because he prefers green plastic structures to red ones". I will concede that if all of that was true, I'd be a candidate for commitment to a mental institution, but the principle remains the same, whether you're playing Monopoly, Champions or Tiddlywinks. Or doing something else entirely. If one member of a social group puts his own concerns ahead of everyone else's, with detrimental effects, it's not inappropriate to suggest that the good of the group outweighs the good of the individual. To excuse antisocial behavior because the particular activity happens to be 'unimportant' is foolish. He's not just disrupting the activity, he's being unpleasant (at least) to his friends, and yours. Of course you don't just slam the door on him, but no one has suggested that. Every post on this thread advised, "Talk to him, see if you can find out what the problem is and address it." Only if that turns out to be impossible, because either he or the rest of the party is unable or unwilling to come to an accomodation, should you kick him out. If an honest attempt to resolve the situation costs you his friendship, I question whether you ever really had it in the first place.

 

As a theater director, I have encountered the actor who insists that his character would do something a certain way, when neither the text nor common sense supports it. In the context of a play, I have tremendous advantage, because I can steer an actor in ways that a GM can't, but I can't make him do something he doesn't want to do.

 

If it was just a question of a disagreement over the proper way to role-play his character, I wouldn't dream of suggesting that he was abusing anyone's friendship. That doesn't seem to be the case here, and usually isn't in these threads.

 

My advice to you is to confront him with the core of your argument:" Other players are not having fun." Let him give every argument he cares to make. concede every point. Then return to the core argument. "Other players are not having fun." He might rail some more; let him. But return. "Other players are not having fun." Don't get distracted by his side arguments, they are irrelavent to the core argument.

 

Eventually he will come to one of two points: He can either have fun with the group, or he cannot. Only he can decide what he wants to do. Don't let him tell you that he is being kicked out. He is choosing to have fun with the group, or to find another way.

 

For someone who apparently finds my 'abuse of friendship' position over the top, it amuses me that I find your solution horrifyingly draconian. You don't even consider the possibility that he might be unaware of the problem he's creating, or that it might be a simple case of miscommunication. It might be that the problem stems from some perceived unfairness or failing on the part of the GM or the other players. If so, his response to the situation is clearly sub-optimal, but chanting a mantra of 'Other players are not having fun' until he submits to the zeitgeist or gets frustrated and goes away isn't going to solve anything, either. And is quite likely to cost you at least one friendship, too.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: My Player Betrayed Humanity. Now What?

 

For right now, I still recommend keeping the consquences in-character. A trip to Stronghold, at the very least, is a certainty. If his new character acts the same, then it's obvious you have a Problem Player.

 

I have one of my own ... if you try to run the game in a manner he doesn't want, he'll try to contort the game to fit what he wants (usually involving starting pointless fights). I can actually rely on the other players keeping him in line, miraculously, since they don't fall into the 'It's a fellow PC, we have to bail him out' line of thought.

 

Instead of telling him that the other players aren't having fun, ask him if HE'S having fun with the game, and be prepared to nitpick his response, because it seems pretty obvious that he isn't (or, to coin a phrase, doesn't 'get it').

 

Re: Getting It. I have this problem in my Urban Arcana game. Despite how many times I mention it, my Problem Player doesn't grasp that 99 percent of normal people ('mundanes', if you prefer) do not see the monsters in the world as monsters. A drow, for example, would just be an African-American. A hellhound would be a dog (probably rabid). A dwarf is a short, but muscular, person. A person throwing a fireball would be seen as throwing a grenade. So, in the last game, he approaches a bartender at a club and asks him if he's seen a guy, and describes a drow to a T. Fortunately, he used the phrase 'black skin', so I had the bartender send them to an African-American employee there. (It also bears noting that this character has NO ranks in Diplomacy, and should have left the information-gathering to the guy with the +15 Diplomacy ... but I digress.) He just doesn't grasp that most folks don't see the monsters, and that just because something is a 'monster' in D&D doesn't mean it's an antagonist here. If he shoots the ogre they run into next game, that'll hose the plot nasty ... and I'll probably get a Total Party Kill out of it.

 

It sounds to me, more and more, that the player just doesn't 'get' what kind of game you want to run. He doesn't get the theme. You run into this fairly often in games ... some DMs allow evil PCs in fantasy games, some don't, for example. Some think a Code vs Killing is appropriate, some think it's stupid. Was the game's theme spelled out clearly (preferably in print) before the game started? Appropriate character attitudes ("willingness to aid and support the world against threats") mentioned?