Is Force Feild Overpriced?

[Hawksmoor]

I am uncertain if this question has been brought up.

 

Is Force Feild overpriced? Armor is 2 for 3 points.

 

Force Feild is 1 PD or ED plus resistance, Visible, non persistent, costs end. Shouldn't it be like 3 or 4 points of PD or ED for 2 Character points and not one for one?

 

Hawksmoor

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

A mitigating factor is that FF is one of the most commonly named defense for NNDs.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

If you try to build Armor with a force field, it will be expensive. +10/+10 Force Field, 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/4), Fully Invisible (+1) weighs in at 55 points. 10/10 Armor costs 30.

 

Build a force field with Armor and you get +10/+10 Armor, Costs END (-1/2), Visible (-1/4), for a cost of what, 17 points. 10/10 FF costs 20.

 

Part of the problem is that, when Armor and FF originated (back in the Dawn of Time), Persistent wasn't a separate concept, and IPE wasn't as developed, so 0 END seemed the reasonable difference. That has changed.

 

This is an example of where I feel the game could benefit by folding Armor, Force Field and PD/ED/Damage Reduction into a single construct (or two - stats should stay and the power "Defense" could still be listed separately for ease of reference). At its most basic, I would suggest the Defense power would cost no END and be invisible, just like PD/ED. Modifiers would then change the cost. Force Field would be an example power, as would "armored suit".

 

KS, while I agree "force field" is a common NND defense, if a character's special effect was a force field, would you hang him on the game mechanics and let the guy with armor bought as a force field be immune?

[Vorsch]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

Is invisible really worth +1 for defences( visible is only -1/4 in comparison), does any character with the armour power look normal?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

I would agree with Vorsch that in most cases Armor is still clearly not normal skin or clothing. While it may not be "visible" in that it probably does not glow like/distort/ripple like a Force Field, it's probably still noticible for the most part to any intelligent observer.

 

If you want truly "invisible" Resistant defenses, go with Damage Resistance and extra PD.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

If you try to build Armor with a force field, it will be expensive. +10/+10 Force Field, 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/4), Fully Invisible (+1) weighs in at 55 points. 10/10 Armor costs 30.

 

Build a force field with Armor and you get +10/+10 Armor, Costs END (-1/2), Visible (-1/4), for a cost of what, 17 points. 10/10 FF costs 20.

 

Part of the problem is that, when Armor and FF originated (back in the Dawn of Time), Persistent wasn't a separate concept, and IPE wasn't as developed, so 0 END seemed the reasonable difference. That has changed.

 

This is an example of where I feel the game could benefit by folding Armor, Force Field and PD/ED/Damage Reduction into a single construct (or two - stats should stay and the power "Defense" could still be listed separately for ease of reference). At its most basic, I would suggest the Defense power would cost no END and be invisible, just like PD/ED. Modifiers would then change the cost. Force Field would be an example power, as would "armored suit".

Agreed; Ive posted similar on several threads.

 

KS, while I agree "force field" is a common NND defense, if a character's special effect was a force field, would you hang him on the game mechanics and let the guy with armor bought as a force field be immune?

 

Depends on the exact definition of the NND's exception clause. If I see [Defense: FF, ForW], then Im reading that as the Powers FF and ForW regardless of SFX. If I see [Force Effects] Im reading that as the literal FORCE SFX.

 

On the subject, one of my main bitches about FF and ForW, as well as EB and several other Powers, is that they include a specific SFX in their labels which is counter intuitive and serves no useful purpose other than to confuse SFX adjudication.

[MitchellS]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

Build a force field with Armor and you get +10/+10 Armor' date=' Costs END (-1/2), Visible (-1/4), for a cost of what, 17 points. 10/10 FF costs 20.[/quote']

Once you put costs endurance on a power it becomes visible and non-persistant so you don't get the visible limitation too. That makes armor the same price as a force field when buying it backwards.

 

I have long thought that Armor should be the only major defensive power and that you just apply Cost End to it to make a Force Field. Something like:

 

Defense: Each 3 points gives you +2 Resistant Defense.

Modifiers: Costs Endurance: -½ makes the power a "Force Field."

Resistance Only: -1½ makes the power only give additional resistance for established non-resistant defenses.

Walled: +1 makes the power usable at ranged and grants a length of hexes of Active Points divided by 10; each doubling of length is an additional +¼.

[Gary]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

It's also cheaper to Harden FF than armor, or add any other advantages for that matter.

[Vorsch]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

Not alot of advatages for defences, meaningful ones that is

[Gary]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

Not alot of advatages for defences' date=' meaningful ones that is[/quote']

 

 

Hardened and Usable by Others comes to mind.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

Once you put costs endurance on a power it becomes visible and non-persistant so you don't get the visible limitation too. That makes armor the same price as a force field when buying it backwards.

 

Yup.

 

Begs the question why it's so much more expensive to add the advantages to Force Field (or any other generally 0 END non-visible persistent power) than to take the advantages away from armor (or any other generally 0 END non-visible persistent power).

 

Force Field 0 END costs 15 points for 10 DEF. Armor costs the same, but is also invisible and persistent.

 

Armor non-persistent, visible costs 10 points for 10 DEF, just like Force Field, and costs no END. Which would you rather have (from a clearly mechanical perspective)?

[Vorsch]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

Hardened and Usable by Others comes to mind.

 

not alot of characters have the sfx for UAO.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Is Force Field Overpriced?

 

Really, if you want to talk about dawn of time.

 

It was Armor 1PD/1ED (or 2PD or 2ED) for 3 points.

Force Field was 2 points for the samething.

 

Force Field was priced at Armor with Cost END. Powers that Cost END were, by defination, visible (still true in 5th, AFAIK). Damage Resistance was included in Champions II to avoid selling off PD and ED and buying Armor but was the cost of selling 1 PD and 1 ED and buying 1 PD/1ED Armor (or just PD or just ED).

 

And you didn't really want to buy Force Field at 0 END since (back then) that cost 1/4 of the active points to make the endurance cost go down by half (rounding down each time). I still can do long division because of that method.

 

So really, IMHO, there is only one power: Armor. Force Field is just a shortcut of saying "Armor that Cost END and acts like a Force Field".

[Sean Waters]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

A number of good points all around.

 

IMO, FF is not overpriced: I have never been concerned about the cost in any kind of instinctive way (like I am about the cost of Damage Shield...).

 

I am surprised that 5th Ed didn't rationalise the defences though. The way they are at present, they are seperate powers and as Vorsch points out,that means the costs of advantages is less for FF but the points savings for limitations is greater for armour. All we really need is PD, ED and damage resistance, with appropriate advantages and limitations. We could probably roll force wall in there too, with a few more advantages and limitations.

 

Whilst all this is logical, I must say I don't really feel the need...it isn't something that really bugs me that much.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

Here is an exerpt from a longer general rant about things that I would change about the game:

 

Similarly "Force Fields" are not necessarily "Force" based; Force is a SFX, not a Base Power. Neither is it necessarily a "Field". Along those lines, Armor and FF both are redundant as is Damage Resistance. I would rather see all three rolled into a single Power called "Damage Mitigation" or reuse "Damage Resistance" since it's being coallesced. By default the Power would cost 2 pts per 1 pt of Resistant Defense, be 0 END, Constant, and Persistant. To make a "FF" style version take a "Screen" Limitation for (-1), making it cost END, be visible, and non-Persistant. Applying it to normal PD and ED is handled either via an Adder at the rate of .5 per point if additional Defense is being applied, or via a (-2) Limitation "Base Defense Only" if not.

 

Similarly "Force Wall" should be renamed to a SFX neutral label, like "Screen".

[TheEmerged]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

RE: Invisible. Officially, Force Field can be either invisible or visible at the same cost. Personally, I feel this is one of those cases where a power being invisible should be +1/4 to be "effectively invisible".

 

RE: the costing. Given that Armor can also visible or invisible, it's not really a factor. The persistent vs non-persistent thing is a bigger deal -- one that in practice is often balanced by making FF a common NND defense.

 

So strictly from a mathematical point of view? Yes, FF is overpriced. However, this is one of those cases where it is more balanced in actual play & actual campaign environment than it looks in theory.

[Gary]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

I would guess in practice, that Force Fields are a lot more common in 5th Edition than in prior editions. That's because you can stick a FF in a EC but not Armor under the default rules.

 

That would change the NND equation somewhat, and it would also drastically change the relative costs of these two items.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

Is invisible really worth +1 for defences( visible is only -1/4 in comparison)' date=' does any character with the armour power look normal?[/quote']

According to the rules, FAQ and Steve Long, the default for Armor is fully invisible power effects. The only way you can tell someone has Armor is to attack him and marvel that he didn't keel over. Granted, things like Obvious Foci will change this aspect.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

As far as what's better/more efficient/whatever...

 

FF has the Protect Carried Items Adder. For a mere 10 points (before Advantages) your FF will protect carried items, up to 100kg (or whatever else the GM might specifiy). Armor doesn't. Of course it's not a default, but it's a step in the right direction. But at least with this Adder you can grant your FF defenses to another character in contact with you (or that you've grabbed).

 

You can also buy Mental Defense, Flash Defense and Power Defense though a FF, and combined with Protects Carried Items FF has more than made up for any extra cost.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

Here is an exerpt from a longer general rant about things that I would change about the game:

The idea of combining Damage Resistance, Armor and Force Field has some positive as well as negative benefits.

 

Positives:

 

• Ease of use from a one-stop shop construction would be the most obvious positives.
  

Negatives:

 

• A 'Force Field' built from a combined method would suffer from an active point cap that is lower than current rules if included as part of a Multipower (this might not be a bad thing, I am still mulling it over*).
  
  • *Power Defense, Flash Defense and Ego Defense.
    I would hazard a guess that these powers were allowed to be linked to Force Field as a way of getting the active cost of the FF in line with other powers in Frameworks without making the PD and ED too high for the campaigns. Taking the 'Costs End' limitation on a more generic Resistant Defense Power would be also be available to this powers individually as well as possible linked limitations.
    

• Current rules for how Find Weakness effects treat these defenses differently than Armor Piercing (resistant defenses that are a result of the power 'Damage Resistance' are considered 'Normal' defenses with regard to Find Weakness for example).
  

I agree that the language used to describe these powers (as well as many others!) needs to be rethought for v6 due to many false assumptions due to the names themselves.

[zornwil]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

According to the rules' date=' FAQ and Steve Long, the default for Armor is fully invisible power effects. The only way you can tell someone has Armor is to attack him and marvel that he didn't keel over. Granted, things like Obvious Foci will change this aspect.[/quote']

I hadn't really thought this before.

 

So visible armor should get a Limitation, even though small, then, would all agree? I'm assuming -1/4.

[Vondy]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

I tend to follow the philosophy that, until something becomes a problem in play, its not a problem. Of course, I've been running Hero for almost 13 years and have a pretty good nose for what will and won't be a problem when I see it on a character sheet, which means a lot of percieved problems in design time never see the light of day in run time. I've never found force field to be unbalanced in play, or unreasonably priced compared to other defences.

[Blue]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

As I understand it, defense powers are built FROM vanilla PD/ED, not from each other. So to work formulas for simluating costs on FF and Armor, you need to start with PD or ED, make them resistant, add invis/non-persistance/etc. as applicable to get your effects. Not convert straight from each other because the HERO math has never worked that way properly, despite anyone's efforts.

 

I haven't done the math myself, but is it possible that if you make FF cost more then it becomes cheaper to simulate the power by buying PD/ED and adding modifiers rather than buying FF?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

I hadn't really thought this before.

 

So visible armor should get a Limitation, even though small, then, would all agree? I'm assuming -1/4.

Here's the fun part... Unless the Armor is percievable to THREE sense groups, you can't take the Visible Limitation. I'm sure we can all think of at two (Sight; look, he's armored - and Touch; that don't feel like skin...), but what about the third? Does his armored body make him heavy? Maybe he makes loud pounding noises when he walks (though that would make Running visible). Would his armor stink or smell funny? Kinda a cop out maybe... but what if it tastes different than normal skin?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Is Force Feild Overpriced?

 

As I understand it, defense powers are built FROM vanilla PD/ED, not from each other. So to work formulas for simluating costs on FF and Armor, you need to start with PD or ED, make them resistant, add invis/non-persistance/etc. as applicable to get your effects. Not convert straight from each other because the HERO math has never worked that way properly, despite anyone's efforts.

 

I haven't done the math myself, but is it possible that if you make FF cost more then it becomes cheaper to simulate the power by buying PD/ED and adding modifiers rather than buying FF?

Assume you are building a character with a 25 STR and 25 CON

which gives a figured 5 ED and PD.

 

You want the finished character to have:

15 rPD and 25 total PD

15 rED and 25 total ED

(which in all cases is 0 End, Persistent and Always On)

There are three methods to accomplish this:

 

1. Damage Resistance.
   
   • spend 40 points on characteristics to get 25/25 PD/ED.
     
   • spend 15 points on Damage Resistance to make 15/15 of each resistant.
     
   • Total spent: 55 points
     

[*]Armor.

• spend 10 points on characteristics to get 10/10 PD/ED.
  
• spend 45 points on Armor to get additional 15rPD/15rED.
  
• Total spent: 55 points
  

[*]Force Field.

• spend 10 points on characteristics to get 10/10 PD/ED.
  
• spend points on Force Field that is 15rPD/15rED with 0 End (+ 1/2) Persistent (+ 1/2).
  
• (60 active points so far)
  
• and then apply Always On (- 1/2).
  
• 40 points for Force Field.
  
• Total spent: 50 points
  
• (a savings of 5 points for a power that is NOT invisible compared to the other 2 examples)