FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

[roch]

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=169824

 

Before I launched into my first HERO campaign, and it's still a few months off, I thought I'd find out what some of the common objections/pitfalls/turn-offs were regarding HERO, from the people who don't play it. (This is mainly so that I can pre-empt any bogons which I think might befall my group. I know, I'm a "caring" GM, but don't worry, I'm planning to get treatment )

 

Anyway, don't know whether you folks have seen (or care about) the responses from rpg.net, so I thought I'd cross-post, just FYI.

 

The thread does not seem to contatin any ranting or flaming. How nuts is that!

 

Thanks to all for making me feel welcome on these boards,

 

(_8(0)

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=169824Before I launched into my first HERO campaign' date=' and it's still a few months off, I thought I'd find out what some of the common objections/pitfalls/turn-offs were regarding HERO, from the people who don't play it. (This is mainly so that I can pre-empt any bogons which I think might befall my group. I know, I'm a "caring" GM, but don't worry, I'm planning to get treatment )Anyway, don't know whether you folks have seen (or care about) the responses from rpg.net, so I thought I'd cross-post, just FYI.The thread does not seem to contatin any ranting or flaming. How nuts is that!Thanks to all for making me feel welcome on these boards,(_8(0)[/quote']Common complaints I've heard are generally in two categories: Complexity and the amount of dice rolling required. New players sometimes are overwhelmed by the large number of options, ways of building Powers, Advantages, Limitations, and so forth. The number of options available in combat sometimes gets them too - all those maneuvers and modifiers. And I've heard groans about, "Geez, I have to roll to hit (after performing a complicated calculation to determine what I need), then I have to roll damage (plus maybe a hit location), then I have to roll Knockback, then I have to roll Knockback damage? Do these people have stock in dice companies or something?" :)Players who are used to an initiative-based combat system, where each character gets an action every "turn", sometimes balk at the SPD chart. That's about it. I'm sure others on the list can contribute.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Thanks for the links.

 

I see Lord Liaden is still doing good work as a missionary of 'HERO' over on RPG.net.

 

HM

[Killer Shrike]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

If there were an award for classiest poster on these boards, Lord Liaden would be a shoe in.

 

 

And thats DESPITE him being a Canadian, so you know he's good

[Dust Raven]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

From my own experience, there are three types of people who don't want to play the Hero System:

 

 

The Herophobic: Takes one look at the rules and freaks, or perhaps the game was poorly described (perhaps by some other person who won't play it), giving this person a bad image of the system.

 

The Mislead: These people tried playing it once or twice at a con, or a friend might have sprung it on them. In this case, either the other players/GM did a bad job of describing the game, or they just didn't catch on, being used to other styles of rules systems. They really have no idea of the actual rules, but think they do and base their opinion on that misinformation.

 

The Lazy: This is actually a poor term for this group, as there is really nothing wrong with them. These people know what the Hero System is all about, and might even like the system. They are just happy using whatever comes out of the box of other systems and don't feel like tinkering around with the framework of the rules. Maybe they don't want to take the time, or they just want to roll some dice on the weekend. They don't need the Hero System to do these things, and in fact, the Hero System will hinder them in their pursuits.

 

Techincally, there's a fourth, the Fanatic. I don't tend to count them though, because these people are nuts. They have already picked their game of choice, and won't play any other. They may even play their game of choice, rewriting all of the rules so it works just write for them to the point where it's not even recognizable from what's published. They don't have a reason for not playing Hero System, they have a reason to not play anything but their "one true system." But like I said, I don't really count these people, because they aren't even potential players, where the other three are.

[Starlord]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

From my own experience, there are three types of people who don't want to play the Hero System:

 

 

The Herophobic: Takes one look at the rules and freaks, or perhaps the game was poorly described (perhaps by some other person who won't play it), giving this person a bad image of the system.

 

The Mislead: These people tried playing it once or twice at a con, or a friend might have sprung it on them. In this case, either the other players/GM did a bad job of describing the game, or they just didn't catch on, being used to other styles of rules systems. They really have no idea of the actual rules, but think they do and base their opinion on that misinformation.

 

The Lazy: This is actually a poor term for this group, as there is really nothing wrong with them. These people know what the Hero System is all about, and might even like the system. They are just happy using whatever comes out of the box of other systems and don't feel like tinkering around with the framework of the rules. Maybe they don't want to take the time, or they just want to roll some dice on the weekend. They don't need the Hero System to do these things, and in fact, the Hero System will hinder them in their pursuits.

 

Techincally, there's a fourth, the Fanatic. I don't tend to count them though, because these people are nuts. They have already picked their game of choice, and won't play any other. They may even play their game of choice, rewriting all of the rules so it works just write for them to the point where it's not even recognizable from what's published. They don't have a reason for not playing Hero System, they have a reason to not play anything but their "one true system." But like I said, I don't really count these people, because they aren't even potential players, where the other three are.

Those are probably typical reasons for someone not playing ANY game system though, not just HERO.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

Common complaints I've heard are generally in two categories: Complexity and the amount of dice rolling required. New players sometimes are overwhelmed by the large number of options' date=' ways of building Powers, Advantages, Limitations, and so forth. The number of options available in combat sometimes gets them too - all those maneuvers and modifiers. And I've heard groans about, "Geez, I have to roll to hit (after performing a complicated calculation to determine what I need), then I have to roll damage (plus maybe a hit location), then I have to roll Knockback, then I have to roll Knockback damage? Do these people have stock in dice companies or something?" :)Players who are used to an initiative-based combat system, where each character gets an action every "turn", sometimes balk at the SPD chart. That's about it. I'm sure others on the list can contribute.

[/quote']To add one more, the absence of a setting seems to turn some people off. A strength of Hero is that it is adaptable to any setting, but that makes it mush less "plug and play". To me, this is a bit of a fiction. The core rules have no setting. Add Fantasy Hero and Turakian Age, and you have a fantasy game with a setting. Tack on the Bestiary, Minions and Marauders and Grimoires, and you have creatuires and spells.That's 6 books in total. D&D, in theory, can be played with three. My example could be cut down to 4 books by removing the second Grimoire and one of the "opponents" books. After all, D&D players buy the Monster Manual II and III, and numerous class-specific books - spedning way more than a full suite of Hero fantasy + rules books would cost.But the illusion persists, because people want to compare 5er alone to three D&D hardcovers.

[Sean Waters]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Techincally' date=' there's a fourth, the Fanatic. I don't tend to count them though, because these people are nuts. They have already picked their game of choice, and won't play any other. They may even play their game of choice, rewriting all of the rules so it works just write for them to the point where it's not even recognizable from what's published. They don't have a reason for not playing Hero System, they have a reason to not play [i']anything[/i] but their "one true system." But like I said, I don't really count these people, because they aren't even potential players, where the other three are.

 

You do realise that is what people on other game boards are saying about us, don't you?

 

One idea, and I know it has been done to an extent with Sidekick, is the D&D idea of the boxed introductory set: cheap, easy, spoon-fed, pared down rules, pre-generated characters, scenario designed to show the strengths of the game and introduce new concepts gently, that sort of thing. I know scenarios generally don't sell well, but one or two introduction scenarios would be a loss leader if they got people interested in the larger game.

 

Also, in England, there just isn't that much product on the shelves. I know I can buy through the net, but I like to weight a book in the hand and open it at random before I make that decision to buy. I have dozens of different game systems and that is how I would up buying most of them. I just don't get as excited about stuff on a computer screen.

[sbarron]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=169824

 

Before I launched into my first HERO campaign, and it's still a few months off, I thought I'd find out what some of the common objections/pitfalls/turn-offs were regarding HERO, from the people who don't play it. (This is mainly so that I can pre-empt any bogons which I think might befall my group. I know, I'm a "caring" GM, but don't worry, I'm planning to get treatment )

 

Anyway, don't know whether you folks have seen (or care about) the responses from rpg.net, so I thought I'd cross-post, just FYI.

 

The thread does not seem to contatin any ranting or flaming. How nuts is that!

 

Thanks to all for making me feel welcome on these boards,

 

(_8(0)

Yeah, the level of civility in that thread worries me. Hell must have frozen over with the rest of the eastern US. I can't imagine what comes next. But I bet it would make a good campaign.

[Steve Long]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

One idea, and I know it has been done to an extent with Sidekick, is the D&D idea of the boxed introductory set: cheap, easy, spoon-fed, pared down rules, pre-generated characters, scenario designed to show the strengths of the game and introduce new concepts gently, that sort of thing. I know scenarios generally don't sell well, but one or two introduction scenarios would be a loss leader if they got people interested in the larger game.

 

To a large extent, that's what Teach Yourself The HERO System will be like, if I ever get it finished (and it'll be a free PDF available here at the website). But since it's a "spare time" project, it has to compete with all the other things I'm interested in doing, so it's only about half completed.

[John Desmarais]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

To add one more, the absence of a setting seems to turn some people off. A strength of Hero is that it is adaptable to any setting, but that makes it mush less "plug and play". To me, this is a bit of a fiction. The core rules have no setting. Add Fantasy Hero and Turakian Age, and you have a fantasy game with a setting. Tack on the Bestiary, Minions and Marauders and Grimoires, and you have creatuires and spells.

 

That's 6 books in total. D&D, in theory, can be played with three. My example could be cut down to 4 books by removing the second Grimoire and one of the "opponents" books. After all, D&D players buy the Monster Manual II and III, and numerous class-specific books - spedning way more than a full suite of Hero fantasy + rules books would cost.

 

But the illusion persists, because people want to compare 5er alone to three D&D hardcovers.

 

Kind of depends on how you count books. I count it as 4 books vs 5. (I am uof the opinion that anyone who can put together a D&D campaign without one of the campaign setting books could also put together a Fantasy Hero campaign with one - so I would either put them into both lists or put them in neither list).

 

D&D

• Players Handbook

• Dungeon Masters Handbook

• Monster Manual

• Setting Book (Forgotten Realms, Ebberon, Dragonlance, etc, etc - even Greyhawk has the Gazeteer book)

 

Hero

• Hero System Rule Book

• Fantasy Hero

• The Fantasy Hero Grimoire

• Beatiary

• Setting Book (Turakian Age or Valdorian Age)

 

From my prespective, the biggest difference is the need to buy a separate book for spells (The Fantasy Hero Grimoire) - but it's cheap book. I think if someone wanted a more favorable comparison with D&D (insofar as teh number fo books you must buy) they would need to include in the setting book enough spells to constitute a viable magic system. Personally, since you have the rules for making spells (ie. the Hero System Rule Book), I don't think it's that big a deal - but a Hero System neophyte might.

[tesuji]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

To add one more...

 

The Unbeliever...

 

this person has come to the conclusion that the math of hero does not provide benefits worth the effort. Whether its because his time is limited and more math means less plot-story-character-fun or maybe because he sees it producing "better consistency but not better balance" than more "GM determines" systems or some other conclusion he has reached, he sees insufficient gain for the pain, and chooses games more suited to his preferred style of play.

[John Desmarais]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

To add one more...

 

The Unbeliever...

 

this person has come to the conclusion that the math of hero does not provide benefits worth the effort. Whether its because his time is limited and more math means less plot-story-character-fun or maybe because he sees it producing "better consistency but not better balance" than more "GM determines" systems or some other conclusion he has reached, he sees insufficient gain for the pain, and chooses games more suited to his preferred style of play.

 

I think I'd file this one under Dust Raven's "Lazy" category. Of course, these are also the same people who will tell you that Hero is full of complicated and difficult math. Personally, I've never had to do any math beyond what I learned in elementary school (add, subtract, multiply, & divide) - I have a hard time thinking of this as complicated or hard (its small numbers - I do it my head)

[Aryanun]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Actually, if it wasn't for HERO, I wouldn't be able to do math in my head.

 

As it is, I can't see how people can think HERO is so complicated. Any game system is as complicated as you want it to be. No one says you have to absolutely GM by the rules. I routinely change some rules so they will fit into the flavor of the game I run, and I do this for any system. They're really more like... guidelines (to quote PotC).

 

As for taking hours to create characters... yeah, it can take some time without the software, but at least you've got the flexibility to make what you want. I'll never forget the first time I played FH. The fact that I had so much to choose from astounded me (I came to Hero from playing AD&D 1st ed).

 

And as a GM, I find there's less paperwork with Hero. Besides, who DOESN'T like rolling lots of dice?

 

Mmm... dice.

[Dust Raven]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Those are probably typical reasons for someone not playing ANY game system though' date=' not just HERO.[/quote']

True.

[Dust Raven]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

Now, I do some weird math calculations when I prepare or run a game... things that go a bit beyond elementary school education. Granted, I don't have to do them, but It's fun (like figuring out how fast a character is going in MPH). It doesn't have to be done to enjoy the game though.

 

Then again, I'm going to school to be a high school math teacher, so maybe I'm just nuts.

[saffo]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

I remember reading somewhere, or someone telling me, that champions was originally part of someones math thesis. Was that a nasty rumor?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

I remember reading somewhere' date=' or someone telling me, that champions was originally part of someones math thesis. Was that a nasty rumor?[/quote']

 

The "official" story is that it started out as a boring college lecture, during which the original author worked on his idea for a superhero RPG.

 

As a math thesis...well, they won't be calling your Dr. any time soon.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

I find the rpg.net forums to be hevily biased against non d20 systems.

 

As for Hero System being complicated, you do realize you can ignore martial arts, most combat manuevers, and simply roll initiative normally.

 

I for one like the fact that the Rules System has remained constant for over 15yrs that I have known it. What changes have come have always ben logical. (mental blocks over Fusion still holding up).

 

Now mind you I moved away from Random Character Generation and Level Based Systems a long time ago. Simplicity is great for new Gamers, but I always wanted more and Hero and other Point Based systems do that.

 

I have recently made it known to my various gaming groups that if I GM at all it will be HERO. When I told my dedicated Shadowrun Group they wanted to know why. So I showed them the Shadowpunk HERO.

 

When they saw that there was one set of rules to represent everything. Well they started asking me to help them convert their characters. It's been a bit wierd switching game systems, but I'm happy and the players are happy too.

 

Cheers

 

QM

 

P.S.: (Attention Steve Long) 2 Players have purchased the Hero System 5th Edition Revised and 3 have bought Hero System Sidekicks. If I keep this up your gonna have to send people to a Local Gaming Convetion.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

That Thread was amazingly civil. Is this a new trend.

 

Well thought out questions, answers, and opinions.

 

I highly recogmend that DoJ Read through it. They have some good points.

 

It was also nice to see Monolith still around.

 

Cheers

 

QM

[Killer Shrike]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

So I showed them the Shadowpunk HERO.

Er? Make with a link please?

[Agent X]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

I can see where a lot of the criticism comes from. As a GM, I sometimes tire of all the work that comes with the gig when it comes to Hero.

 

What I don't get is folks claiming that M&M or SAS or BESM are as flexible as Hero. I just don't see it. If they mean flexible enough, I can buy that as preference but I sincerely have problems with the idea that those games are as flexible.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

I think the main reason people don't play HERO is lack of visibility. I can walk into any bookstore (not just a specialty game store) and see B&D books on the shelves. Lots of them. Even the less "central" ones. Other d20 setting and genre books, non-WotC open-licence d20 books, etc. I usually see books for the colon games* as well. In regular bookstores. Usually next to the graphic novels and manga, near the sci-fi and fantasy areas.

 

Where are the HERO books? In specialty game stores only.

 

As for charatcer creation, I find that to be a very fun part of roleplaying games, at least potentially. In HERO, it's much more so. It's like shopping! You've got 350 points to spend on anything you want! As long as it fits the genre and the mileu and any other French words. In B&D, you've got a predefined shopping list, and a limited number of choices. Granted, you can vastly increase the number of choices by buying more books if you want. There are now over 50 base character classes for D&D! And that's including the ones in WotC books only! And not including the NPC classes or the minor variants in Unearthed Arcana!** And there's about 10 times that many prestige classes. And by now there are about 50 different races. So when I go shopping in D&D, I choose one race, one class, a few skills, one feat (unless I'm a Fighter or a Human), and some equipment. In HERO, I can shop for anything I want. I can buy the equivalent of any number of "feats" and "skills" that I want, regardless of what "race" or "class" I pick. And I can even buy the ability scores I want, rather than having to roll them. This may seem overwhelming to some, but I for one find it to be quite liberating and stimulating to my creativity. A character I create in HERO is MY character. A B&D*** character seems to belong to the system more than it does to me. This makes for much better role-playing as opposed to roll-playing.

 

And of course this then relates to the issue of the number of books you need to buy. Remember that only the GM needs to buy the Genre/Setting/Monster books. All the HERO player needs in the basic rulebook to create ANY type of character he can imagine! In D&D, if you want to have all the choices I mentioned above, you need:

 

PHB

Psionics HB

Races of ... Series (2 so far)

Complete ... Series (4 so far)

Exalted Deeds

Vile Darkness

Unearthed Arcana

Frostfell

Miniatures HB

Planar HB

Plus often many of the setting books

And probably a few others I've left out.

 

If the *player*, not just the DM, doesn't buy some of these books, he greatly limits his "shopping" options.

 

* I refer of course to the White Wolf series of games with colons in them, such as Mage: the Ascention, Werewolf: the Apocolypse, Changeling: the Dreaming, Orc: the Grunting, Chef: the Cuisine, Accountant: the Boredom, Farmer: the Dell, Winnie: the Pooh, Jabba: the Hutt, etc.

 

** Yes, I've actually counted them. And yes, I know that's an extremely obsessive-compulsive thing to do for someone who doesn't even play the game.

 

*** And it case it wasn't obvious why I call it B&D instead of D&D, it's because you're in bondage to the system. It forces many of your choices, and punishes you for others.

[A.J.Gibson]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

What I don't get is folks claiming that M&M or SAS or BESM are as flexible as Hero. I just don't see it. If they mean flexible enough' date=' I can buy that as preference but I sincerely have problems with the idea that those games are as flexible.[/quote']

 

Part of the problem is that a lot of RPGnet's have a blind spot when it comes to the difference between supporting a concept and not outlawing it. Because there are no rules against the concept, the system is considered to support it, because you can always make up something on the spot. By that logic, any system can do just about anything. The most common example of this is when a subject is covered, but not in great detail - such as senses in BESM. Sure, you can say your character has X, but it's not represented by the rules.

 

Someone mentioned the d20 bias on RPGnet. It pales in comparison to the bias against generic games, or games that aren't rules-light.

[Zephrosyne]

Re: FYI: why more people aren't playing HERO (rpg.net)

 

I just read the entire thread. I must admit that the part about having to purchase Telescopic Vision; Obvious Inaccessable Focus (Tree) just to climb a tree and see what's ahead was absolutely hysterical. I was laughing for about 5 minutes.