"So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

[proditor]

One of the time honored questions of comic geekdom, what's up with Superman's vulnerability to Magic?

 

I have my own view on how it works, but I wanted to hear what other people think. How would you ruun it in a game? Or, possibly how have you ruin it in your games? (Since I know I've seen a Daxamite and a Kryptonian write-up at some point.)

 

This is not a DC/Marvel thread, but feel free to use examples from either universe to illustrate a point.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Our group runs "vulnerable to magic" and "doesn't work vs. magic" as extending to magic weapons. So, Supes is probably in for a bad day.

 

Of course, you could argue that "divine" is a seperate special effect, and that Thor's hammer more accurately falls into that. Not so bad for Supes, bad for vampires.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Superman's STUN and Body are not "Vulnerable to Magic", his Damage Reduction and Enhanced PD are. End result Superman gets his Kryptonian Block knocked into the next state and says:

 

"Owwww!!!!! I can't get hit by him again."

 

Superman then proceeds to use his seldom applied superspeed to stay ahead, just slightly of Thor's attacks. Since Thor is a very superior fighter, Thor manages to manuver Superman into yet another hammer blow or two before someone like Wonder Woman investigates the battle that has Superman bloody and Metropolis in slight disarray. After WW arrives the battle turns quickly south for Thor as he mistakes Diana for Sif and gooses her butt.

 

Ragnarok ensues!

[John Desmarais]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

One of the time honored questions of comic geekdom, what's up with Superman's vulnerability to Magic?

 

I have my own view on how it works, but I wanted to hear what other people think. How would you ruun it in a game? Or, possibly how have you ruin it in your games? (Since I know I've seen a Daxamite and a Kryptonian write-up at some point.)

 

This is not a DC/Marvel thread, but feel free to use examples from either universe to illustrate a point.

 

Personally, I've never considered Thor's "bash with hammer" to be a magical attack. Now, the hammer is quite capable of throwing out magic attacks, but in the comics I've read Thor rarely seems to use those abilities, prefering the more "direct" approach of simply using the mallet for a few extra dice of HA.

 

That said however, depending on my mood, I might consider the extra HA dice (not the full STR + HA attack) to be magical if I thought it was important to the game.

[CBikle]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Pre-CRISIS, it seemed like Supe's vulnerability was represented by most of his powers and characteristics bought with the limit "weakened or non-existant when exposed or surrounded by magic or kryptonite" (-1/4 I guess) which usually meant that magic could hurt him as though he were normal (PD and ED were probably no higher than 8 if that).

 

Getting hit with Mjolnir is a little tricky. Assuming it's a HA, I'd say that the extra dice of damage would get past the Kryptonian defenses and only blocked by Supe's inherent ones(I don't see Thor's STR as being "magical" in this case). This involves a lot of math so I'd probably just say that Superman gets half his total defenses vs. the damage, just to keep it simple.

 

In the comics I've read, I've never seen anything to indicate that the magic vulnerability was represented as any type of Champions vulnerability disad(although you could make an argument that Supes and most other silver-age characters had a 3X effect vulnerability vs. transforms).

[Hawksmoor]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Actually, if you wanted to get really arcane you could say that Thor is magical. Just like Silver Banshee and Necron, both of which have had Superman flat on his red behind.

 

Superman is not *vulnerable* to magic per se. He is just no better or worse than defending against it than a regular everyday person on the street that just happens to have tremendous experience and indominable willpower.

 

Given that, a hit by a God using a powerful magical weapon would really really hurt Superman. Not kill him, Superman has that lesser known superior recovery power called Invulnerability that prevents him from dying unless it is a milestone issue facing a universal foe. What it does do is make him bleed and possibly break a bone or four on the hit. Superman can't take a hit form Mjonir any better than Batman. Thus he breaks.

 

Make sense?

[Red Knight]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Well.... In Kingdom Come, the Novel, it addresses the issue of Supes vulnerability to magic. The basic gist is that Supes is a man of Science, the man of tomorrow and magic represents the opposite of science. SO.. Supes is vulnerable to it b/c he doesn't understand it. NOW.. in Kingdom Come (a personal favorite of mine) there is a great fight between Supes and Capt.Marvel (Shazam). Marvel is kicking Supes blue butt all over the place and then in a moment of enlightenment... Supes grasps the concept of magic and the energies of th universe. (insert deep philisophical means here) and suddenly, he stands up and grabs marvel by the mouth to shut him up. Needless to say... Supes defeats marvel and continues on his way.

 

As far as Thor goes... I would rule that the weapon, even though it is magical is still a kinetic weapon. I might allow 3/4 defenses -vs- the hammer to represent the magical aura.. Now if Thor summoned a thunderbolt... now we are talking problems.

[keithcurtis]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

THis is an oooooooooold debate with no answer. It depends on the writer. Therefore, opinon is the only thing that matters. It can't be argued.

My personal opinon was that the events in the recent DC/Marvel crossover pegged it perfectly. Mjolnir would hurt, but it wouldn't be like a bullet through tissue paper.

My take on the Supes/Magic thing is that he has human vulnerability to magic spells and to supernatural beings whose nature is something other than physical. A troll is magical, but it shouldn't be able to take out Superman with one punch. Dracula is magical, and his vampire powers should work on Superman. By this light, Loki would be far more effective against Superman than Thor. Thor would be better served by opening a portal that ships Superman off to Hel than to hit him with the hammer.

 

Keith "But even enough hits with that hammer should take out Superman. He's Thor ferodinssake!" Curtis

[OddHat]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

SUpes suddenly gets a sympatheic writer and remembers how fast he can be. He catches the hammer, proves worthy, and the Beta-Ray Bill story arc repeats.

[Hermit]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

SUpes suddenly gets a sympatheic writer and remembers how fast he can be. He catches the hammer' date=' proves worthy, and the Beta-Ray Bill story arc repeats.[/quote']

 

PHhhpt... come on, be realistic... Norse Gods and Alien men who are solar powered I'll believe... but sympatheic writers? I'm not sure they exist.

 

[Supreme]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Incredibly precise comments from Keith aside...

 

The way Superman's vulnerability is phrased in the dialogue is not how it gets played out in any of the battles. In the dialogue Superman has only normal human resistances to magic. In battle, Superman has reduced resistance to normal magic attacks, and normal human resistance to non-normal attacks (mental powers, power drains, etc.). The way, I'd write it up would be that Superman has whopping high defenses and 75% Damage Reduction which doesn't work vs magical attacks. He also has all the extra defenses (Life Support, Power Defense, Flash Defense, etc.) which don't work against magic at all. Also, it seems that Superman's CON is never reduced under any circumstances (including deprivation of Solar Energy).

[Constantine]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

i believe the way my GM did it in our D-Marvel-c campaign was that Kryptonians didn't get their damage reduction vs. magic, and had a 1.5 vulnerability as well. Still, with all the stun they had, it was very hard to bring them down.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

As keithcurtis said, it's varied, depending on the writer. So there is no "right" answer, because not even DC can get it straight.

 

BUT... if you wonder how I'd do it...

 

I'd give him his base PD and ED against it. In our games, we've got a house limitation called "permeable". Basically, any power of the appropriate sfx is automatically considered Penetrating if you've got permeable on your defenses. So Supes has 60 PD and ED, permeable to red sun and magic attacks. Even a 6D6 magic bolt EB will hurt Supes, at least a little. His Damage Reduction doesn't work against it, either. Finally, none of his special defenses (Flash and Power Defense, etc) work against magic. Give him a 1.5 vulnerability to Stun, Body, and Effect vs magic, and you're good.

 

So, when he gets hit by Thor's 26D6 "Mjolnir Whap", he's gonna take... (math)... umm... a lot of Stun.

[MitchellS]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

As keithcurtis said, it's varied, depending on the writer. So there is no "right" answer, because not even DC can get it straight.

 

BUT... if you wonder how I'd do it...

 

I'd give him his base PD and ED against it. In our games, we've got a house limitation called "permeable". Basically, any power of the appropriate sfx is automatically considered Penetrating if you've got permeable on your defenses. So Supes has 60 PD and ED, permeable to red sun and magic attacks. Even a 6D6 magic bolt EB will hurt Supes, at least a little. His Damage Reduction doesn't work against it, either. Finally, none of his special defenses (Flash and Power Defense, etc) work against magic. Give him a 1.5 vulnerability to Stun, Body, and Effect vs magic, and you're good.

 

So, when he gets hit by Thor's 26D6 "Mjolnir Whap", he's gonna take... (math)... umm... a lot of Stun.

Wow! I really like that permeable. I'll have to steal that. Thanks.

[Marduk]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Supe's is difficult to build accurately in any system, but if you’re going to do it champions is the way to go.

 

When dealing with the man of steels Invulnerability ridiculous amounts dmg reduction may not be the way to go. You have to ask yourself what does it take to wind him, knock him out, or generally make him acknowledge he was hurt?

 

I built superman for fun and the most difficult thing to develop was his super spd. If you read the comics he’s in, you'll notice when he uses it there's never a flurry of blows...ever!

 

His super speed is best thought of as quick movement and response time and has little to do with the number of times he can hit a man in one secound (ie high ocv 12-14 and Impresive dex around 24-27).

 

Thor for this reason would trade blows at a virtually equal rate. Supe's Would be beat because Thor got all his power (minus super speed) plus he's a far superior fighter. Thors hammer is mystical uru enchanted by odin it does truck loads of dmg and magically sparks with lightening 70% of the time it hits(ie. blows are magical in nature). If not for MaJonir the battle would lean in Superman’s favour. Thor fought Gladiator around issue 36 of the last series (I think). If you want a general Idea of how the brawl would go minus magical weakness track this comic down

[levi]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

...Getting hit with Mjolnir is a little tricky. Assuming it's a HA' date=' I'd say that the extra dice of damage would get past the Kryptonian defenses and only blocked by Supe's inherent ones(I don't see Thor's STR as being "magical" in this case). This involves a lot of math so I'd probably just say that Superman gets half his total defenses vs. the damage, just to keep it simple....[/quote']

 

Well, just to needlessly complicate things, Thor wears a magical belt that enhances his STR. I love these discussions and I am glad that no one has (yet) unreasonably stated that one character would dominate the other.

[Fuzzy Gnome]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

The definition of Superman's vulnerability varies from "able to withstand any physical attack regardless of power source, but his Power Defense doesn't keep him from being enchanted into a newt" to "Weakened and perhaps knocked out by just being in the same room as an artifact-level weapon." I prefer the former. Superman would be affected by a magic weapon if the magic was something subtle enough to bypass his Invulnerability. He has high resistance to impact and lightning, but none to magical Drains and Transforms.

[nexus]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Well' date=' just to needlessly complicate things, Thor wears a magical belt that enhances his STR. I love these discussions and I am glad that no one has (yet) unreasonably stated that one character would dominate the other.[/quote']

 

Superman would like so -totally- own Thor its not even funny. Superman once moved the Earth in issue 2 of "Forgotten Tales of Hyberpole" He'd just like, ya know use his Super breath to knock Thor into orbit. Then what's he gonna do? Thor controls wind nd stuff to fly. No air in space, Hammer Boy! Then Superman, who never kills nobody would decide to finish him and just knock Thor into the sun.

 

[GestaltBennie]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Superman would like so -totally- own Thor its not even funny. Superman once moved the Earth in issue 2 of "Forgotten Tales of Hyberpole" He'd just like, ya know use his Super breath to knock Thor into orbit. Then what's he gonna do? Thor controls wind nd stuff to fly. No air in space, Hammer Boy! Then Superman, who never kills nobody would decide to finish him and just knock Thor into the sun.

 

 

But Thor's a best pal of Captain America, so he'd like, totally win. :-)

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

But Thor's a best pal of Captain America' date=' so he'd like, totally win. :-)[/quote']

 

Nuh-uh. 'Cause Batman would show up, and he'd be like, 'hey, represent.'

[HeroGM]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

JLA/Avengers #2 I belive

[Supreme]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

JLA/Avengers #2 I belive

The conclusion of which was Superman barely defeating Thor and saying, "He may just be the toughest person I've ever fought..." before passing out. Great fight, but I suspect Superman's victory was as much a nod to Supes being the First. I'd have had Superman win too, but after being forced to resort to some trickery (i.e., getting Mjolnir away from him for a minute).

[nexus]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Nuh-uh. 'Cause Batman would show up' date=' and he'd be like, 'hey, represent.'[/quote']

 

Damn, you beat me to it.

[keithcurtis]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Nuh-uh. 'Cause Batman would show up' date=' and he'd be like, 'hey, represent.'[/quote']

Yo, man, M'mon Bats don't shiv. He a balls nasty slicer-dicer.

 

Keith "now let's throw in some l33t" Curtis

[Blue]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

I just assumed that "Magic" was simply a force that didn't exist on Krypton. That is, it might have been there as some form of resonant energy (mana) but it was an energy that Kryptonians never discovered or tapped, so they have built up no resistance to it.

 

Earth has had magic in some form for eons. Earthlings have, to some degree, built a minor tolerance for it. At least more than a Kryptonian.