Retcon the CU

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

What I dislike about the wane and waft comes down to this - by example-:

I have supergenius character with a battlesuit. He builds it himself. It is "supertech" but he knows how to build it, and how to create all the do-dads to keep it running (special chips ect). By character concept, and my special effect, this suit is real tech that can be built by anybody with the correct knowledge and tools, which my character has, and has built, so that they can be rebuilt, by him, anytime he wants - it isn't magic, just advanced technology.

Then the magic wanes.

By special effect, his suit is "real tech". It shouldnt't change.

By special effect, he can build and repair anything he made.

 

Why does it break down after "the magic goes away" even if it takes a few years. By SFX everything he is and builds is not effected by the ambient magical level - so by SFX it should not be affected. But it is.

 

And that to me is the problem. It nails special effects of characters - and that destroys my willing suspension of disbelief. Some people can suspend disbelief through that, or have a rationale they can accept. I haven't yet seen one, and thus to me, it is something that detracts from the game world. So I toss it.

 

 

And this I agree with. I would add that, if he developed the tools and techniques to build the damn suit, and if they are based on "Real" science and not junk scince / supertech / whatever, those tools and techniques should still be there even after the magic goes away and your character pulls a Flowers for Algernon. He may not remember exactly how he made his flux capacitor, but he has his working model, tools and notes right in front of him. If you say that his flux capacitor will only work in a high-magic environment, then our hypothetical Malvon catapult maker (because they have flux capacitors in Malvon catapults dontchyaknow), who can make a "Real" flux capacitor, should be able to look at yours and tell the difference.

[gregghelmberger]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

The metasetting and the resultant "waxing and waning" of magic to explain it all has always seemed forced and extremely uncomfortable to me. The fantasy worlds of the Turakian and Valdorian Ages seem sufficiently dissimilar that they demand separate universes -- to try to shoehorn in everything else, from pulp to Dark Champions to supers to sci fi...well, it struck me as an extremely shaky intellectual construct from the first, and nothing I've read from Hero Games or in this thread has made it seem more sensible or solid.

 

So, were I to retcon the CU (the ostensible topic of this thread...remember? :-) ) I would sever the connections with the other settings, first and foremost. Dark Champions would stand on its own, which would eliminate the tortured rationales necessary to explain why supers don't go to Hudson City and why Harbinger of Justice just doesn't pop a cap in Dr. D's butt, as he's capable of doing in that obscene writeup that was in 5th Ed DC. It would also eliminate the need to say that "magic fades away" in a few years, thus rendering the PCs superfluous. Gone also would be the backflips necessary to explain why humans weren't desperately seeking lost supers technology during their alien wars (after all, the imperative of being in a life-or-death struggle with evil replicants from beyond the moon would serve as MORE of an incentive to recover lost technological glory, not LESS as some have argued).

 

Secondly, I would do away with magic as the motivating force behind all supers. Even without the waxing and waning, I don't like it. I could go into my arguments about why I don't like it, but really, what's the point? Others have said it before, and there's no point in my saying it again, so I'll simply say that I do not like magic, Doctor Fell, and leave it at that.

 

Thirdly, as was raised earlier, I would have liked to see more connections to previous editions, though I understand why they aren't present. Ah, well, at least they kept Mechanon and VIPER.

 

Fourthly, I agree with the previous statement that DEMON was more compelling when it was a technomagical cult than the band of Cthulhu-worshippers they are now (another unfortunate side-effect of the metasetting and the need to shoehorn in the Kings of Edom). I'd change that in any CU game I ran.

 

That said, apart from the issues raised by the metasetting (which are very problematic for me, though easily enough solved) CU is a darned fine universe for supers.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

If it had been up to me to design the CU, or up to me to design the 6th edition CU, I would end up breaking it up into two lines:

 

Psitech Universe:

This is the timeline of Alien Wars, Terran Empire, etc. In this timeline there are psychic powers, discovered by western civilization in the 20th century (all those pulp stories about people going off and learning powers) but not at all strong or reliable until future centuries.

 

Champions Universe:

This is pretty much the superhero segment of the CU, except for the Metahuman Registration Act and the IHA and maybe Genocide. I would toss in a dystopian collapse/meltdown of the CU Earth to handle all those post-apocalypse comics, but eventually the CU Earth rebuilds and ends up back in space in time for Galactic Champions.

 

Mutant Universe:

This is probably one thick campaign setting book and probably that's about it. It sets up a 'pure' mutant campaign where all those with innate superpowers are mutants or at best experimental cyborgs and you have experimental robots and powered armor suits around as well. Alternate timeline from the CU, though crossovers are not impossible.

 

As I have stated elsewhere, the X-Men never fit into the Marvel Universe very well. They're more of an SF style concept or extreme Iron Age concept pushed into a Silver/Bronze universe. The Mutant Universe would be more SF-ish in tone, fewer costumes, more uniforms, more realistic consequences, etc.

[sinanju]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

That answer satisfies you' date=' in your campaigns. If your tastes run that way, groovy. To me, it's nonsense. Either Dr.D really has built a nuclear reactor the size of a battery or he hasn't. If it's real science, losing the "magic" won't make a bit of difference. If it's a manifestation of his powers, and those powers go away, it will shut off. In the second case, actual scientists (as oppossed to poor deranged loons who think that you can have a nuclear reactor the size of a battery) ought to be able to look at Dr.D's tech and say "this can not possibly work", and they should not be able to reverse engineer and mass produce it, UNTIL-tech style. Those are my tastes, and I don't demand that you share them.[/quote']

 

In the appendixes to the first "Wild Cards" novel they explicitly addressed this point, mentioning that most "super-genius" tech was, in fact, nonsensical assemblages of junk that couldn't possibly work--and that it was believed that it was the inventor's wild card powers that made it function as advertised. They also noted that such technology couldn't be replicated by anyone else.

 

I agree with you--either my Oscillation Overthruster is a shoddy bomb casing full of used pinball machine parts and only works because my subconscious superpowers _make_ it work...or it's a real machine based on real principles I've deduced with my big, big brain. In the first case, yeah--if my powers fade away, the machine won't work any longer. In the latter case, it'll work whether my powers fade or not--whether I'm ALIVE or not.

[gojira]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Pretty good discussion here! Lord Liaden had a great analogy for how "the magic" might actually work.

 

 

I agree with many other posters here. "Magic" just ain't a great explanation for super tech in Champions, and I'd nix it. However, Lord Liaden's ideas have sparked something of a reasonable explanation instead. If you assume that "magic" is DOJ code for "we don't know either, make something up", here's my idea:

 

 

*ahem*

 

Most of you I'm sure are familiar with Einstein's theory of general relativity. Spacetime is curved and replaces Newton's theory of gravity. Most of you will also know that the orbit of the planet Mercury doesn't work with Newton's theory. Mercury is close enough to the Sun that spacetime is distorted greatly and general relativity must be used to accurately calculate its orbital path. The orbit of Mercury is considered one of the proofs of general relativity's correctness.

 

So, we have here in our own solar system an example of eight "normal" planets where intuitive physics work (like Newton's laws of gravity), and one planet where things work a little differently. Hmmmm....

 

The easiest way out of this is to substitute "string theory" for "magic" in the CU and just claim that it's all those other variables in string theory that are messing things up. Maybe they are named after the last eight letters in the Greek alphabet (I don't know what they're really called): Ρ ρ Rho, Σ σ Sigma, Τ τ Tau, Υ υ Upsilon, Φ φ Phi, Χ χ Chi, Ψ ψ Ps, Ω ω Omega. It's especially that last one, the omega variable (which you have to say in a deep, mysterious voice so it comes out as the *OMEGA* variable) which is causing reality to distort.

 

So, if the Earth is passing through a region of space where the omega variable is really out of whack, this explains why super science, sorcery, mutants, magical girls, etc. all work a little differently.

 

Now, a few things still have to be changed. Like, everyone does NOT forget how their stuff works. There are two types of scientists for this scenario. First, there are scientists who *think* they understand their own super science, but they've missed some important detail (like the omega variable). Therefore, when it stops working, they don't understand and are not able to fix it.

 

The other type of scientist does figure out what is really going on, and learns the truth. But since they can't change the laws of physics, there's nothing really they can do. They can build FTL drives for space ships, and FTL radio and blasters, and that's about it, because that's all "normal" physics allows them to do.

 

Now, what about aliens and alien technology?

 

Obviously, they know about the omega variable because they can build FTL drives. However, if you think about it, if their drive depends on a variable (omega) and that variable changed as you moved through space, would you *want* your FTL drive to suddenly surge in power? Or would you want it to stay the same and work consistently? I'd guess the latter. Alien super tech has dampers that prevent it from over-charging in areas of high omega variable effect. So now aliens don't have to worry about a blaster rifle that might go nova when you pull the trigger.

 

(This also explains all those super science lab explosions: it's the omega variable messing things up, and you need to build an effect damper or stuff goes boom.)

 

 

~~~~

 

Well, there it is. A little convoluted, and there may be a few areas I forgot, but I think it does a decent job of explaining super-science for those of us who can't accept "magic."

 

Comments?

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

My problem with the whole ‘magic’ thing can be summed up in two words.

 

“Delusional Idiot.â€

 

 

“I want to play a brilliant scientist, who built a suit of powered armor, and hangs around with two hot babes!â€

“No. But you can play a delusional idiot who’s too stupid to realize he’s altering reality to make a magic suit of powered armor.â€

 

“I want to play a super-strong brick!â€

“No. But you can play a delusional idiot whose magic powers let him THINK he’s a super-strong brick.â€

 

“I want to play a super-hot energy projector, who shoots ‘sapphire energy’ bolts. And sings.â€

“No. But you can play a delusional idiot who can shoot blue magic bolts, and just THINKS it’s ‘sapphire energy.’â€

 

“I want to play a super-skilled detective and martial artist.â€

“No. But you can play a delusional idiot who magically simulates having super martial arts and detective skills. But you have to wear this old Gatchaman costume.â€

 

“@#&!! it. I want to play a super-mage with three power frameworks, with at least one illegal ‘example slot.’â€

“Ok. But you’re too stupid to realize that everyone ELSE is using magic, too.â€

 

To me it seems a step above having an entire campaign turn out to be a dream, or to have never existed except in a comic book or computer game in the real world. A very small step.

 

Or, to put it bluntly, it’s a cheat. I don’t want to be told at the end of a campaign “Oh, by the way, nothing ever really happened.†(I mean, I KNOW nothing REALLY happened. I’m not insane. But I expect something to have actually happened in the non-existent game world . . . dammit. You know what I mean)

 

 

I’m not a big fan of the entire ‘meta-genre timeline,’ either. While I understand what it’s going for (you have all this other game material just lying around) I don’t think the end result is good.

 

If there’s going to be a ‘mythic past’ in a superhero world, it should be the real world's mythic past, with King Arthur and Son Goku, not a D&D or Conan-esque ‘game world’ version.

 

I mean, how is that any different than insisting on playing a half-drow Magic User/Thief or an actual Jedi Knight in a supers game?

 

 

 

Anyway, in terms of actual things I’d retcon out . . . I don’t like the ‘Axis Cursed the Allied Supers’ bit. Didn’t like it in DC, don’t like it in CU. Since all the existing GA supers are pretty dang weak anyway, I don’t see how they’d mess up history too much. Marvel’s ‘Cap and Bucky’ version is much more fun.

 

All the mega-villains earlier appearances, except perhaps Dr. D. Taco-bell and the Queen of the Multiverse are ‘Secret Wars’ type mega-crossovers that haven’t happened yet. When they do, they break a lot of stuff, but oddly enough, are almost never mentioned again.

 

Actually, I’m pretty much fine if the L never happens . . . Blessed ?genocide ‘L’ should do the trick . . .

 

The Warlord, Tellieos (dammit, I can’t spell in greek, and my CU is at work) and Menton can stay. And probably Gravitar, too. They’re all low-enough profile that they don’t mess up the day to day world too much.

 

Actually, the Warlord and Vaan probably shouldn’t exist in the same game world. One’s dead center Iron Age, one’s on the other edge of the Silver Age. Easier than balancing three or four separate game universes, I guess, and easy enough do drop whichever one doesn’t fit.

 

I don’t like the ‘Real Supers never go to Hudson City, by unspoken agreement’ idea, unless you WANT all ‘real’ supers to think that petty things like human crime are beneath them. What’s wrong with having two separate ‘universes?’ You could even have the Harbinger exist in both. Marvel did it with the Punisher for what, two and a half decades now, with no real problems.

 

From what I’ve heard of it, I don’t really like the Vibora Bay ‘Constantine with a Gun, and the good parts taken out’ plotline at all.

 

I don’t like Nebula’s mindset. Either she’s genetically programmed to send all criminals to Duress, in which case she should freely send heroes there, OR she’s flexible enough to understand that all the rules of her old galaxy don’t apply, and thus it should be possible to convince her not to send anyone there. Currently she’s both at once. That may not be big enough to count as a universal retcon, though.

 

---

We’re all missing the important thing in the ‘magic’ debate, though. If all superpowers go away in 20 years, shouldn’t everyone get their ‘extended life’ points back?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Is it just calling it magic that pisses people off?

 

"All oddity in this universe is derived from Kaos Flux, which makes extremely improbable events possible. This creates entire new branches of science that study it, and is the catalyst for the extra-physical phenomena that occur. Mutants have genetic anomalies that tap this, Mages use their mystic essence to channel it for the sheer power needed for significant effects, and no one really understands it works like this because by definition, it can either be understood, or it can work, not both."

 

"Some people simplify this down to say that the Kaos Flux is 'mana'."

 

 

Everyone has the powers they think they do. It's just that:

 

1) They need Kaos Energy to power them.

2) Most technology developed with them taps into Kaos Energy, because Kaos Energy is just so gosh darn useful.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

In the appendixes to the first "Wild Cards" novel they explicitly addressed this point, mentioning that most "super-genius" tech was, in fact, nonsensical assemblages of junk that couldn't possibly work--and that it was believed that it was the inventor's wild card powers that made it function as advertised. They also noted that such technology couldn't be replicated by anyone else.

 

I agree with you--either my Oscillation Overthruster is a shoddy bomb casing full of used pinball machine parts and only works because my subconscious superpowers _make_ it work...or it's a real machine based on real principles I've deduced with my big, big brain. In the first case, yeah--if my powers fade away, the machine won't work any longer. In the latter case, it'll work whether my powers fade or not--whether I'm ALIVE or not.

 

Well, of course it works regardless of whether you're alive or not.

 

However, just as a grandfather clock might have some trouble operating in the vacuum of space, so does technology made in the ambience of magic, _that uses magic as a 'cheat'_ have trouble in a low mana enviroment.

 

And it's not like this makes the scientist in question an idiot; I mean, most people inventing things on earth would take earth's gravity field as a constant, wouldn't they?

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Well, calling it ‘magic’ doesn’t help. But no, it that isn’t the problem.

 

It’s not just ‘having the powers they think they do,’ it’s ‘Not being profoundly ignorant of their own nature.’

 

Lets say I was playing Lone Wolf And Cub Hero. In one session I massacre 30 or 40 kurakawa ninja and an army of drug-addicted prostitutes, with my nigh-invincible Suio style, my dotanuki sword, and two switchblade naganata.

 

The guy playing Daigoro, (the kid) irritated that all he did was get kidnapped, points out how over the top that is, that no swordsman, no matter how skilled, could possibly take that many opponents at once. It’s just impossible.

 

The GM replies “Ah, right. But, Ogami’s actually a psychic. He actually killed most of those people with his mind. But he doesn’t know it, he just THINKS he’s using the swords.â€

 

Makes the whole thing a lot less cool, no?

 

That kind of thing CAN be done well, if you base the game around it. Or it can be a good Twilight Zone-esqe ‘gotcha’ bit. “What do you mean every villain I kill with my magic sword is making the Lords of Hell stronger?!†but in this case, it’s neither. Nobody ever figures it out, it never affects anyone, it just undercuts them and makes them look stupid.

 

If Dr D and Defender KNOW they're using 'Kaos Flux' energy, and it dosen't end with the equivelent of 'it's was all a dream', it isn't a problem. (I still don’t think the ‘meta-genre history’ adds much, though)

 

---

Like those Ishtarians in The Mole People, except the flashlight actually DOES contain the Burning Fire of Ishtar, and it’s the heroes who are the primitives who think it’s a flashlight.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Well, calling it ‘magic’ doesn’t help. But no, it that isn’t the problem.

 

It’s not just ‘having the powers they think they do,’ it’s ‘Not being profoundly ignorant of their own nature.’

 

Lets say I was playing Lone Wolf And Cub Hero. In one session I massacre 30 or 40 kurakawa ninja and an army of drug-addicted prostitutes, with my nigh-invincible Suio style, my dotanuki sword, and two switchblade naganata.

 

The guy playing Daigoro, (the kid) irritated that all he did was get kidnapped, points out how over the top that is, that no swordsman, no matter how skilled, could possibly take that many opponents at once. It’s just impossible.

 

The GM replies “Ah, right. But, Ogami’s actually a psychic. He actually killed most of those people with his mind. But he doesn’t know it, he just THINKS he’s using the swords.â€

 

Makes the whole thing a lot less cool, no?

 

That kind of thing CAN be done well, if you base the game around it. Or it can be a good Twilight Zone-esqe ‘gotcha’ bit. “What do you mean every villain I kill with my magic sword is making the Lords of Hell stronger?!†but in this case, it’s neither. Nobody ever figures it out, it never affects anyone, it just undercuts them and makes them look stupid.

 

If Dr D and Defender KNOW they're using 'Kaos Flux' energy, and it dosen't end with the equivelent of 'it's was all a dream', it isn't a problem. (I still don’t think the ‘meta-genre history’ adds much, though)

 

---

Like those Ishtarians in The Mole People, except the flashlight actually DOES contain the Burning Fire of Ishtar, and it’s the heroes who are the primitives who think it’s a flashlight.

 

....except they _do_ figure it out, right? It all gets used to end a particularly nasty threat, right?

 

And it's certainly not _immune_ to PC scrutiny - there are various other ways it could be worked out, thought on, and used a plot device.

 

 

The brick... really is superhumanly strong.

The scientist... really is using scientific techniques to create science that is advanced (it utilizes a finite resource, true, but so does a car...)

It's not like they don't really have the powers; they do; they just don't know one tiny detail about how they work.

 

I mean, it's _obivious_ that there is SOMETHING that makes magic, superpowers, and so forth work in the CU - since they appeared out of nowhere - that a character doesn't know exactly how/what the deal is doesn't make them an idiot - they know there is a mystery there.

[OddHat]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I mean, it's _obivious_ that there is SOMETHING that makes magic, superpowers, and so forth work in the CU - since they appeared out of nowhere - that a character doesn't know exactly how/what the deal is doesn't make them an idiot - they know there is a mystery there.

 

According to Hidden Lands, the CU has had people with Superpowers and Supertech running around for 500,000+ years. That's not quite out of nowhere by the time the CU's "now" rolls around. I'd rather deal with the boom and bust nature of the Superhuman population (a convention I keep) in other ways than magic coming and going, but whatever floats your boat.

[KawangaKid]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

In my campaigns, this whole "ambient level of magic" bit is slightly modified.

 

First off, no one really knows the "source" of superpowers, though there are many theories put forth: metagenes, psionic abilities manifiesting, expansion of current scientific knowledge, etc...

 

I'm essentially adopting the World of Darkness view that "reality's paradigm" tends to shift from time to time, and the "Tunguska Event" was part of a long-standing war over the nature of reality and the artificial limits enforced on it. Now reality is "growing into" an enlarged set of paradigms, leaving mysteries an anomalies here and there.

 

At least, that's what SOME of the mages of my CU believe.

[assault]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Back to the original topic of the thread...

 

One change I would make would be to tweak the worldwide distribution of supers a bit. In particular, I would increase the prevalence of supers in Australia, New Zealand and any other relatively significant market for Hero Games products in order to give a bit more freedom for GMs to fit their campaigns into the CU.

[sinanju]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Well' date=' of course it works regardless of whether you're alive or not.[/quote']

 

Not "of course" if I'm actually channeling mystical mojo to make my Oscillation Overthruster so-called "gadget" work. Then it _isn't_ given that it works even if I croak.

 

However, just as a grandfather clock might have some trouble operating in the vacuum of space, so does technology made in the ambience of magic, _that uses magic as a 'cheat'_ have trouble in a low mana enviroment.

 

We haven't established that I _am_ using magic. That's the point at issue. If I'm using magic to make my Oscillation Overthruster work, then yeah--when the magic goes away it turns back into just a casing full of used pinball machine parts. The thing is, if magic is what makes it go in the first place, then it was ALWAYS just a casing full of junk--and real scientists who examine it ought to be able to see that.

 

If magic is what swelled my brain til it was three sizes larger and I then deduced the actual physical properties of the space-time continuum that allow the Oscillation Overthruster to function as predicted, then IT REALLY WORKS, regardless of how I achieved the intelligence to work out the theory. And it should continue to work whether the magic is still around or not.

 

The problem is that the official CU explanation is (apparently) that magic is what _really_ makes all that nifty technology work...but nobody can tell. Which is just bunk, in my opinion.

 

And it's not like this makes the scientist in question an idiot; I mean, most people inventing things on earth would take earth's gravity field as a constant, wouldn't they?

 

Yeah, but we don't build our gadgets in blissful ignorance of gravity's existence. We take it into account. We know that it affects our inventions. It would only parallel the CU explanation if we remained utterly ignorant of the veyr _existence_ of gravity, too stupid (apparently) to notice its effects.

[assault]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Yeah' date=' but we don't build our gadgets in blissful ignorance of gravity's existence. We take it into account. We know that it affects our inventions. It would only parallel the CU explanation if we remained utterly ignorant of the veyr _existence_ of gravity, too stupid (apparently) to notice its effects.[/quote']

 

Of course, if the way gravity functioned was to suddenly change, we'd be up the creek.

 

"Magic" fluctuation is a bit like the speed of light in a vacuum suddenly changing, or Force no longer equalling Mass x Acceleration.

 

Once you open up this kind of can of worms, the Law of Unintended Consequences starts to rear up and bite you.

 

The real answer is, of course, not to look too hard at stuff that doesn't make sense. Otherwise you stop believing "that a man can fly". In other words, the official CU explanation makes no sense, but neither does anything else, so you shouldn't bother dwelling on it.

 

But of course, since I intend to still be playing Champions in 15 years time*, superpowers aren't going away in my universe.

 

---

*I started over twenty years ago, and why should I stop?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Far be it for me to stifle intellectual debate over the "magic issue" if you enjoy it; however, if anyone participating is still trying to convince those holding the opposite view, I think it's safe to say that by this point, everyone for whom this concept would be acceptable has already "gotten it," and anyone for whom it isn't never will.

[nexus]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Far be it for me to stifle intellectual debate over the "magic issue" if you enjoy it; however' date=' if anyone participating is still trying to convince those holding the opposite view, I think it's safe to say that by this point, everyone for whom this concept would be acceptable has already "gotten it," and anyone for whom it isn't never will. [/quote']

 

But since when has that stopped a debate online?

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

But since when has that stopped a debate online?

Stopped it?!? It rarely rises to the status of "noticable speed bump"!

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Back to the original topic of the thread...

 

One change I would make would be to tweak the worldwide distribution of supers a bit. In particular, I would increase the prevalence of supers in Australia, New Zealand and any other relatively significant market for Hero Games products in order to give a bit more freedom for GMs to fit their campaigns into the CU.

 

I can't help feeling that Hero Games missed a boat there. With a substantial number of supers listed for Canada, which isn't terribly more populous than Australia, there's no reason why there can't be more "capes" Down Under than the handful mentioned. Judging by the number of Aussie and Kiwi posters we have here, HERO gamers are fairly represented in those countries, and like you would doubtless like more official native supers to play around with.

 

Certainly the Fourth Edition CU version of Oz was a livelier place, having Captain Australia (two of them in fact), the Phase II super-agency, the Outriders hero team, as well as the villainous Dark Brotherhood and the fearsome monster Entropi.

 

(Sadly, New Zealand was pretty bereft of superhumans under that edition, too.)

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Not "of course" if I'm actually channeling mystical mojo to make my Oscillation Overthruster so-called "gadget" work. Then it _isn't_ given that it works even if I croak.

 

Perhaps... but then it would hardly be able to pass for mundane tech, would it?

 

We haven't established that I _am_ using magic. That's the point at issue. If I'm using magic to make my Oscillation Overthruster work, then yeah--when the magic goes away it turns back into just a casing full of used pinball machine parts. The thing is, if magic is what makes it go in the first place, then it was ALWAYS just a casing full of junk--and real scientists who examine it ought to be able to see that.

 

Why? It clearly works, and parts of it gel with established science. It's not like it really is pinball junk; it's real technology, rearranged in configurations that 80 years earlier or 20 years later wouldn't work - but for the entire lifetime of the scientists in question, it does.

 

Any "real" scientist who said 'this doesn't work - well, obviously it does, but it shouldn't, and thus we should not believe it works' would be laughed at for good reason.

 

You seem to be convinced that 'magic is needed' = 'science isn't'.

 

If magic is what swelled my brain til it was three sizes larger and I then deduced the actual physical properties of the space-time continuum that allow the Oscillation Overthruster to function as predicted, then IT REALLY WORKS, regardless of how I achieved the intelligence to work out the theory. And it should continue to work whether the magic is still around or not.

 

Sure... you figured out some principles. Now, about the entire tech base all your understanding is mired in...

 

The laws of physics, in the CU, undergo a massive and fundamental change in 2020.

 

Why would said genius ONLY develop devices that utilize no aspects of the 'loosening' of physics, when there's no way to tell at the time which aspects are based on the mana (at least not through scientific testing)?

 

The problem is that the official CU explanation is (apparently) that magic is what _really_ makes all that nifty technology work...but nobody can tell. Which is just bunk, in my opinion.

 

Why? If it was magic that makes RL gravity 'work', would that lessen the intelligence of modern scientists? Would that make us all fools?

 

Are electrical devices that were constructed in ignorance of atomic theory somehow lessened for the creator not possessing that information? You can have a very good understanding of how something works, empirically, while not knowing a deep fundamental truth.

 

Yeah, but we don't build our gadgets in blissful ignorance of gravity's existence. We take it into account. We know that it affects our inventions. It would only parallel the CU explanation if we remained utterly ignorant of the veyr _existence_ of gravity, too stupid (apparently) to notice its effects.

 

A watchmaker in the 1600's knew there was a force that pulled things down. He didn't know what caused it, and, assuming it was destined to stop tomorrow, would have no way of compensating for (more importantly, predicting) THAT.

 

CU scientists take the mana into account on a very basic level - it is part of fundamental physics, and there's no ready way to tell what it's effects are, because it is constant across the universe.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

I can't help feeling that Hero Games missed a boat there. With a substantial number of supers listed for Canada, which isn't terribly more populous than Australia, there's no reason why there can't be more "capes" Down Under than the handful mentioned. Judging by the number of Aussie and Kiwi posters we have here, HERO gamers are fairly represented in those countries, and like you would doubtless like more official native supers to play around with.

 

Certainly the Fourth Edition CU version of Oz was a livelier place, having Captain Australia (two of them in fact), the Phase II super-agency, the Outriders hero team, as well as the villainous Dark Brotherhood and the fearsome monster Entropi.

 

(Sadly, New Zealand was pretty bereft of superhumans under that edition, too.)

 

Well, personally, setting games in NZ has sucked for me. My only successful game is set in the US (played in by Kiwis) (trust me, I've tried running games set here). NZ really is small and boring on the 'people' side of things.

 

A good Australia sourcebook could be interesting though.

[Starlord]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Far be it for me to stifle intellectual debate over the "magic issue" if you enjoy it; however' date=' if anyone participating is still trying to convince those holding the opposite view, I think it's safe to say that by this point, everyone for whom this concept would be acceptable has already "gotten it," and anyone for whom it isn't never will. [/quote']

 

Actually, I think it is more safe to say those who are ok with the 'magic issue' seem hell bent on convincing those who aren't, not the other way around. I would say both sides seem to 'get it' but, again, the side that is 'ok' with it can't fathom why the side that isn't 'ok' with it isn't 'ok' with it.

 

Ok?

[Kid Chaos]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Why are there waxing and waning in the numbers and types of superhumans? Why do they become nothing but myth for centuries or milennia' date=' and then turn out again in amazing numbers? Who knows. There are many theories, including that at certain times the collective subconcious of humanity simply cries out in so much despair that this [i']forces[/i] the appearance of godlike power personified, giving people something to believe in again, a source of hope...but since this power is manifested through imperfect humans, some give in to the urge to use the power for evil instead. When the time of great social/historical stress has smoothed out, when tensions have eased...the collective unconcious breaths a sigh of relief, and superbeings gradulally fade away, with fewer new ones coming on the scene than there are older ones leaving, until they're just a memory again.

 

But that's never been proven, and is simply one possible explaination of many.

 

 

Holy Crap! That's almost a direct qoute from my Omegaverse backstory!

 

Drat, now I have to go in and change it up some. It is good to see someone else using metaphysics and not magic.

 

As for the topic at hand, In my main Champions Universe almost everything from the official Uni had to go on some level. A few organizations, villians, etc survived but all in altered forms.

 

An example is my Viper seems to be more a collection of terrorist than anything else. Professor Meurte is not only around by oversees one such Superhuman Viper Squad.

 

Everything else is either original, borrowed from some source, or a quasi homage to a comic character.

[Black Rose]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

The part about this that weirds me out is the fact that, since we're looking at a window starting somewhere in the 1920s (can't remember the exact date) and continuing through today... there's an awful lot of "standard of living" tech in there. I'm using the assumption that, for as long as we're in the effect, the laws of reality are simply a little different. Given that, when "the magic goes away", how much of what we consider a normal part of life will simply start to break down?

[sinanju]

Re: Retcon the CU

 

Why? It clearly works' date=' and parts of it gel with established science. It's not like it really is pinball junk; it's real technology, rearranged in configurations that 80 years earlier or 20 years later wouldn't work - but for the entire lifetime of the scientists in question, it does.[/quote']

 

If it only works when magic is around, it _isn't_ real technology. I haven't read the CU history that discusses the loss of magic and superpowers/tech, but my impression isn't that "physical laws" changed, but that "magic went away" and devices that depended on magic IN ADDITION TO physical laws stop working.

 

If it requires magic to function, it isn't technology.

 

Any "real" scientist who said 'this doesn't work - well, obviously it does, but it shouldn't, and thus we should not believe it works' would be laughed at for good reason.

 

Not if he's pointing at the inner workings of an anti-gravity belt that consisted of an apple core, a bent paperclip and a sketch of an "electrical circuit" that violates the basic rules of circuitry. As a magical talisman, it's just dandy--as a working anti-gravity device, it's preposterous. It may indeed allow you flit about in defiance of gravity, but it's not a technical feat--it's magic.

 

You seem to be convinced that 'magic is needed' = 'science isn't'.

 

By George, I think you've got it.