Let's talk about Combat Luck

[Savinien]

As a few of you are aware, I'm more of the creative sort than the game mechanic junkie. So, when I run into something that feels wrong I can only ask you blokes if I did it wrong and you can correct my erroneous ways.

 

We were playing in my heroic-level Star Hero campaign Depths of Space:Crashlanding. It is sort of a corss-genre thing with a pulpish feeling.

 

Anyways, our protagonist is moving through an alien swamp and runs into a bat-like creature with a mosquito-like proboscis (read stirge). I had built it as a 1/2d6KA with a linked STN drain.

 

I allowed PCs to take 1 level of comba luck to try and keep them alive. Basically, that one level made the stirge unable to harm the protagonist. I don't like this. Will it be impossible to drop the combat luck character by nickeling and diming them?

 

Did I play this wrong? How should I have built the stirge's blood draining attack?

 

Thanks in advance!

[austenandrews]

Re: Let's talk about Combat Luck

 

I kinda think Combat Luck should allow small attacks through on a GM's Discretion basis. Like if a stirge rolls max damage, maybe, in this case.

[Tiree]

Re: Let's talk about Combat Luck

 

If the Bug can do a sneak attack - then their combat luck is ineffective.

 

Combat Luck is - luck based: So it is GM's call on when it can be used. A big key is how you define Combat Luck.

 

I see Combat Luck as dodging, weaving, blocking, swatting, and in constant awareness of things around the character. But how often does a bug slip through like a mosquito - first time pretty easy, second time nigh impossible.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Let's talk about Combat Luck

 

Since it's "luck based" you could rule an "unlucky moment" every now and then, thus keeping them on the edges of their seat.

 

Or surprise them.

[Savinien]

Re: Let's talk about Combat Luck

 

Seems like GM Fiat to let their 'monster' be effective. The point of the Hero System is building blocks. If I start d20ing it, I'm afraid of the snowball effect.

 

The stirge is 'bat-sized' too. (From HSB except I made all the DCV be only during flying).

[OddHat]

Re: Let's talk about Combat Luck

 

As others have posted, there's a reason why Combat Luck is so cheap. The character effectively purchased Armor with a -1/2 Limit, exactly as though he'd picked a Restrainable power or a power with a 14- activation roll; as the GM, you have every right to tell him that he didn't get lucky if that's what the story requires.

 

So, let the Stirge attack by surprise, rule that the character couldn't get out of the way at the time, rule that the character slipped in the mud, etc.

[Savinien]

Re: Let's talk about Combat Luck

 

I detailed a scene later where a swarm of stirge's attacked a hunting party of Horned Ghosts (Thanks Susano!). The players got pale in the face and didn't want to mess with the stirge's anyway. So, I got the point across that they are dangerous.

 

Thanks for the help guys. It seems the consensus is that the nature of Combat Luck being luck based is the beast to deal with, not buillding the stirge differently.

 

If anyone has other opinions, please continue posting.

[OddHat]

Re: Let's talk about Combat Luck

 

Seems like GM Fiat to let their 'monster' be effective. The point of the Hero System is building blocks. If I start d20ing it, I'm afraid of the snowball effect.

 

The stirge is 'bat-sized' too. (From HSB except I made all the DCV be only during flying).

 

You can always make the Stirge's attack a 1d6KA with double penetrating, or an NND Does Body vs a very common defense (Rigid Armor), or some other structure that bypasses Combat Luck. Points are not an issue. Still, Combat Luck is not Armor, and the player should expect it to fail now and then.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Let's talk about Combat Luck

 

You might also consider an alternative to Combat Luck (or an alternative way of building it, depending on how you look at it). Instead of taking the Limitation "Luck-Based" for -1/2 (which the rulebook describes as the "Just missed me!" effect), try taking a Limitation "Does Not Work vs. the First BODY of a Killing Attack" for -1/4 (which we might describe as the "It's just a flesh wound!" effect).

 

With this SFX, the Armor would work more often (it wouldn't matter if the character was Surprised, for example), but it wouldn't wholly prevent damage... the character could still be nicked by small attacks. Like Combat Luck, it allows the character to survive in a dangerous world, but it does so by minimizing the impact of each attack rather than preventing it entirely.

 

(Incidentally, this sort of build -- usually with higher values of Armor -- is also useful for Champions-level characters in the mold of Wonder Woman or Spider-Man... characters who are hardy and resilient, but not bullet-proof.)

[Steve]

Re: Let's talk about Combat Luck

 

(Incidentally' date=' this sort of build -- usually with higher values of Armor -- is also useful for Champions-level characters in the mold of Wonder Woman or Spider-Man... characters who are hardy and resilient, but not bullet-proof.)[/quote']

 

Another thing that works nicely with such a build is a Linked Damage Reduction power, which you could add a DEX-Roll requirement to, which simulates rolling with a blow or almost but not quite dodging a strike.

 

You could also take Derek's build and add in further points of Armor with a DEX-Roll requirement. Part of the character's defense is sheer hardiness and part is agility-based.

[CourtFool]

How did that make you feel?

 

What did you not like about it? You wanted to make sure you could nickel and dime the protagonist down?

 

Luck based is a limitation so it should affect the power at some time. It is not as clearly defined as some other limitations (Activation Roll) but that does not mean you should just avoid it. I think a GM decision is perfectly allowable here. I doubt many players would cry foul.

[Savinien]

Re: How did that make you feel?

 

What did you not like about it? You wanted to make sure you could nickel and dime the protagonist down?

 

Luck based is a limitation so it should affect the power at some time. It is not as clearly defined as some other limitations (Activation Roll) but that does not mean you should just avoid it. I think a GM decision is perfectly allowable here. I doubt many players would cry foul.

 

The Llama lives!!!

 

I didn't like the fact that my perception of what was written made the character impervious to my stirge. The player would be willing, but I didn't want to klooge it and hoped for some advice from my HERO brethren (and their pets).

[Mike W]

Re: Let's talk about Combat Luck

 

Combat Luck wasn't really designed for this type of scenario. It's mainly designed as a way to keep alive Heroic level characters who seem to take insane amounts of damage(think Kung Fu movies) or maybe even people who never quite seem to take anything worse than a fleshwound no matter the situation(James Bond or Indiana Jones) characters that invariably seem to get shot in the shoulder or leg no matter how good the opposing marksman is supposed to be.

 

On the other hand, I find that to make animals truly effective in any genre, you have to buy penetrating on their attacks, at least their bites. Claws are often built with reduced penetration, however.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Let's talk about Combat Luck

 

Combat Luck wasn't really designed for this type of scenario. It's mainly designed as a way to keep alive Heroic level characters who seem to take insane amounts of damage(think Kung Fu movies) or maybe even people who never quite seem to take anything worse than a fleshwound no matter the situation(James Bond or Indiana Jones) characters that invariably seem to get shot in the shoulder or leg no matter how good the opposing marksman is supposed to be.

 

On the other hand, I find that to make animals truly effective in any genre, you have to buy penetrating on their attacks, at least their bites. Claws are often built with reduced penetration, however.

Better make it double Penetrating. Combat Luck is Hardened once.

 

Still, I think it suits the power just find that occasionally you take a hit, get unlucky and all that. Or if you're swarmed one of them stingers is bound to find a squishy part.

[McCoy]

Re: Let's talk about Combat Luck

 

Combat Luck wasn't really designed for this type of scenario. It's mainly designed as a way to keep alive Heroic level characters who seem to take insane amounts of damage(think Kung Fu movies) or maybe even people who never quite seem to take anything worse than a fleshwound no matter the situation(James Bond or Indiana Jones) characters that invariably seem to get shot in the shoulder or leg no matter how good the opposing marksman is supposed to be.

 

On the other hand, I find that to make animals truly effective in any genre, you have to buy penetrating on their attacks, at least their bites. Claws are often built with reduced penetration, however.

Then what would you think of a House Rule that Combat Luck stops BODY but not STUN? Luck keeps them alive, does not keep them on their feet.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Let's talk about Combat Luck

 

Not so sure about that....sometimes the effect of Combat Luck should include Stun.

 

I think you just need to enforce the luck aspect and by gm fiat declare that sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

[Edsel]

Re: Let's talk about Combat Luck

 

I recently posted a question dealing with how Combat Luck can effectively make characters immune from certain types of attacks to Steve. You can find that question and answer here.

 

You Only Nicked Me/Hero's Grace (Champions 138' date=' Pulp Hero 272) instead of Combat Luck.[/quote']

 

This power basically takes a limitation, Always Lets First BODY Through (-1/2) in place of the of the Luck Based (-1/2) Limitation. This works very well in letting those minor attacks, like stirges or poisoned blow guns remain a threat. While at the same time offering protection against those big nasty killing attacks.

[caris]

Re: Let's talk about Combat Luck

 

How about rebuilding them as a swarm a la the school of pirahna in the Beastiary.

 

Also you might give them a Suppress vs. Combat luck that only works when you have multiples of them attacking a single target.

 

Finally, I would seriously consider ruling from the description of Combat Luck that when being attacked by say 7 or more beings in a swarming effect that Combat Luck gets an activation roll.

[Mike W]

Re: Let's talk about Combat Luck

 

Then what would you think of a House Rule that Combat Luck stops BODY but not STUN? Luck keeps them alive' date=' does not keep them on their feet.[/quote']

 

I'd probably pass on it. Combat Luck goes along way to replacing the damage reduction we always had to give the martial arts masters that could absorb huge amounts of damage. Taking away combat luck's ability to let you soak the STUN goes a long way to defeating that. If the attack is of any decent dice(even the 1.5D6K of most pistols),you should still get several STUn through, since one level of Combat Luck plus Normal Human Max = 11 PD and the pistol should do at least 5 BODY(2 through) and must therefore do at least 2 STUN. Further, it will probably do closer to 4 STUN(I tend to like the Standard Effect Rule as opposed to the STUN lottery). Multiply that for hit location in a heroic level game, and I can live with the result. Especially if you are playing with a pulp hero feel to the game or again, a martial arts campaign - campaigns where characters are routinely capable of absorbing far more damage than a normal human is supposed to be able to.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Let's talk about Combat Luck

 

I don't know why the only thing people are thinking of is corner cases and alternate builds. I'd be doing Move Bys/Move Throughs like crazy with those fast little flying buggers. A 1/2d6 KA with some movement CLs added in is going to get through 3 rPD pretty easily (when they manage to hit).

 

EDIT: Grr. I meant DCs. "...with some movement DCs added in...." :sigh:

[Savinien]

Re: Let's talk about Combat Luck

 

You might also consider an alternative to Combat Luck (or an alternative way of building it, depending on how you look at it). Instead of taking the Limitation "Luck-Based" for -1/2 (which the rulebook describes as the "Just missed me!" effect), try taking a Limitation "Does Not Work vs. the First BODY of a Killing Attack" for -1/4 (which we might describe as the "It's just a flesh wound!" effect).

 

With this SFX, the Armor would work more often (it wouldn't matter if the character was Surprised, for example), but it wouldn't wholly prevent damage... the character could still be nicked by small attacks. Like Combat Luck, it allows the character to survive in a dangerous world, but it does so by minimizing the impact of each attack rather than preventing it entirely.

 

(Incidentally, this sort of build -- usually with higher values of Armor -- is also useful for Champions-level characters in the mold of Wonder Woman or Spider-Man... characters who are hardy and resilient, but not bullet-proof.)

I recently posted a question dealing with how Combat Luck can effectively make characters immune from certain types of attacks to Steve. You can find that question and answer here.

 

 

 

This power basically takes a limitation, Always Lets First BODY Through (-1/2) in place of the of the Luck Based (-1/2) Limitation. This works very well in letting those minor attacks, like stirges or poisoned blow guns remain a threat. While at the same time offering protection against those big nasty killing attacks.

 

Both of these are basically proponenting the same thing. What if the character also has a smidgeon of body armor (1rPD)?

 

I'm thinking prestidigitator may have the right of it for my specific example. I'll have to run the math, but doing a move-through makes some sort of sense... Even the splooch effect of the stirge attempting to ram its nose into something harder than steel...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Let's talk about Combat Luck

 

Combat Luck:

 

This is (as has been pointed out) LUCK BASED. What I understand by this is: YOU HAVE TO BE LUCKY FOR IT TO WORK, not, as a lot of people seem to define it: if you can conceive of a situation in which luck could allow you to avoid the damage you are gold...this means that you can, for instance, simply decide that a point comes where the combat luck doesn't hold...OK that is a bit arbitrary, so how about this: an attack that succeeds by (say) 4 or more bypasses the combat luck....so if the attacker is LUCKY and rolls well, the armour does not activate.

 

The other thing I might point out is that you have built the powers as LINKED: the drain is NOT (as I see it in your post) further limited to only work if the KA does BODY - which means that you could simply say that a hit gets the proboscis inot a character, enabling the blood drain but doesn't do significant enough damage to cause BODY.

 

As for Body Armour, it probably has the 'real armour' limitation - which measn that it has weak points that an enemy could target with a penalty to OCV.

 

The othre thing is you could simply re-design combat luck for your campaign to make it more plot friendly....

[Savinien]

Re: Let's talk about Combat Luck

 

The DRN is bought with KA has to do BOD. But, the rest of your post has merit.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Let's talk about Combat Luck

 

If you take Derek's idea about letting the first point through, and combine it with the opsional rule of letting 1-pt. wounds disappear after five minutes of tending, you can very nicely model the Indiana Jones sort of genre, where the character gets banged up and scraped a lot, almost dying, yet by the next reel, they are perfectly fine. It also decreases the feeling of invulnerability to minor attackes (like stirges or daggers) that comes with armor.

IMHO, this would also heighten the drama of each combat (you can litteraly be nickel and dimed to death), while still increasing long term survivability, since the characters will likely be starting the next combat in good shape.

 

Keith "ouch! quit it! ouch! quit it!" Curtis

[Savinien]

Re: Let's talk about Combat Luck

 

If you take Derek's idea about letting the first point through' date=' and [b']combine it with the opsional rule of letting 1-pt. wounds disappear after five minutes of tending[/b], you can very nicely model the Indiana Jones sort of genre, where the character gets banged up and scraped a lot, almost dying, yet by the next reel, they are perfectly fine. It also decreases the feeling of invulnerability to minor attackes (like stirges or daggers) that comes with armor.

IMHO, this would also heighten the drama of each combat (you can litteraly be nickel and dimed to death), while still increasing long term survivability, since the characters will likely be starting the next combat in good shape.

 

Keith "ouch! quit it! ouch! quit it!" Curtis

 

Where is this rule located? It seems familiar... And, what about having armor on, too? Make the dagger and stirge attacks penetrating?