Twilight Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist I would rank Bronze Tiger higher then Batman as he defeated Batman once before, needing only one strike to do it. Not a cheap shot either as Bruce was clearly ready for the fight but Bronze Tiger simply moved to fast for Bruce to block. Also, this is still a part of Batman's history Post Crisis as I'm reasonably sure the only part of Batman's history that didn't survive Crisis was Silver St Cloud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist It has been implied that in strait martial arts ability (ie in a ring "fight" kind of situation) Nightwing is better than Bats.That's an interesting point. I think the way I'd approach it (were I building them for Champions) is to give Nightwing a higher DEX than Batman. I don't see Dick matching Bruce's knowledge of Martial Arts' date=' and I definitely don't see him matching Bruce's strength or damage-dealing capability, but he might very well be [b']faster[/b] than Bruce. (Certainly I would rank Nightwing's Acrobatics and Breakfall Skills higher than Batman's.) If he is a bit faster than Bats, that would explain why he might best him in a ring "fighting" situation. Batman's greater strength wouldn't matter ('cause they're not really trying to dish damage), and his greater knowledge of Martial Arts would be somewhat offset by the fact that many of the real-world moves and tricks that knowledge gave him would not be particularly helpful in the contrived setting of a ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Also, though there's no way I could prove such a thing, I think Wonder Woman deserves mention on this list. Yes, I know she's superpowered. But I believe, in terms of pure fighting skill, she's supposed to be the top, or one of the top, combatants in the DC Universe. In other words, she's ineligible for this list because she's superpowered, but I believe that if she somehow lost her powers and thereby became eligible, her skill alone would place her at or near the top of this list... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Gandhi Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Also, though there's no way I could prove such a thing, I think Wonder Woman deserves mention on this list. Yes, I know she's superpowered. But I believe, in terms of pure fighting skill, she's supposed to be the top, or one of the top, combatants in the DC Universe. In other words, she's ineligible for this list because she's superpowered, but I believe that if she somehow lost her powers and thereby became eligible, her skill alone would place her at or near the top of this list... I'd agree with that. As this scan shows, Diana trains constantly, and she's referred to have knowledge of every know martial art, from Earth all the way to New Genesis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist If he is a bit faster than Bats, that would explain why he might best him in a ring "fighting" situation. Batman's greater strength wouldn't matter ('cause they're not really trying to dish damage), and his greater knowledge of Martial Arts would be somewhat offset by the fact that many of the real-world moves and tricks that knowledge gave him would not be particularly helpful in the contrived setting of a ring. Now that you mention it, that does seem to be some of the stuff that was in what I read/discussed. That Nightwing has a better DEX and SPD but not the levels or manuevers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist In other words, she's ineligible for this list because she's superpowered, but I believe that if she somehow lost her powers and thereby became eligible, her skill alone would place her at or near the top of this list... I'd agree with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist I would rank Bronze Tiger higher then Batman as he defeated Batman once before, needing only one strike to do it. Not a cheap shot either as Bruce was clearly ready for the fight but Bronze Tiger simply moved to fast for Bruce to block. Also, this is still a part of Batman's history Post Crisis as I'm reasonably sure the only part of Batman's history that didn't survive Crisis was Silver St Cloud. Incorrect -- Kathy Kane also didn't survive, and enough about the Society of Assassins was changed around that a lot of things related to it are doubtful, although Bronze Tiger did acknowledge an early association with the Society still existing Post-Crisis, in BIRDS OF PREY. Also, Bronze Tiger faced Batman Post-Crisis, during Ostrander's SUICIDE SQUAD run. The fight was interrupted before a conclusion was reached, but before it was, Bronze Tiger was losing on points. Then again, Bruce has been improving over time too, and that 'kicked in the face' incident -- even if still in continuity -- was quite a while ago. I mean, Batman used to be given trouble by the GCPD SWAT team. Now he effortlessly trashes entire squads of Special Forces types. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist My list would be the following: 1. Richard Dragon 2. Lady Shiva 3. Bronze Tiger, Black Canary, Conner Hawke 4. Batman, Wildcat, Manhunter, Batgirl II, Question, Ra's Al Ghul 5. Mr Terrific II, Nightwing, Talia, Judomaster 6. Cheshire, Huntress, Batgirl I 7. Arsenal, Catwoman, Hawkman 8. Catman 9. Robin, Hellhound, Shrike, Hawkgirl, Red Hood II, Ravager, Blue Beetle II 10. Bushido, Savant, Creote, Flamebird There are a few issues of Suicide Squad and Shadow of the Bat that show that Black Canary is not only the equal of Bronze Tiger, but that she's also a better fighter than the Bat. I would consider Catwoman a better fighter than Catman due to actual style over brute force. Catman may have a form of martial arts, but it lacks finesse and true style ... something that Catoman exudes in fighting. Nightwing may be a good fighter, but I don't see him exceeding the Bat in style. Rather, I see Dick as being faster and extremely more acrobatic, giving him some serious dodging ability ... but the Bat's a better fighter. I rate Barbara on par with Huntress ... why? Have you seen her fight in that chair? Damn! I was surprise that the Hawks never made the list ... though I don't agree that Diana should make the list for the same reason that Starfire and Deathstroke don't make the list. She may be a great fighter, but she's got enough umph to level city blocks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Oh, Helena Bertinelli, aka the Huntress, is well down the list of movers and shakers in martial arts skills. Her training from Richard Dragon wasn't so much improving her skills as mental discipline and focus -- Helena has issues, and Old-School Richard Dragon (not the retcon) was as much about teaching enlightenment as he was about teaching head busting. Helena used to rank down around Tim Drake (Robin III) in skills, but has been improving somewhat during her tenure on the Birds. She's still clearly inferior to most of her co-workers, though. (So why is she there? Contacts and Streetwise, as well as having enough grit for a sand factory.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist When you say Batgirl II, are you talking about Cassandra Cain? Cause I though she was Batgirl III. Batgirl II was Huntress, wasn't she? I'm not all that up on my Bat clan knowlege, so I might be confused on this one... If we're talking about Cassandra, I believe she's supposed to be right on par with Shiva. Batman is right above Shiva, having besically one shoted her in at least one encounter I know of (assuming you count Superman & Batman is fully in continuity). Cheshire is supposedly dead. Deathstroke shot her at the end of Villian United. Course, her NOT beign dead is probably the better option for that particular story and it's not like he blew here head off... In any event, she's supposed to be the second deadliest female assassin in the DCU, right under Lady Shiva. Speaking of Villians United, Scandal is supposed to be quite the expert fighter, right op there with the likes of Talia al Ghul. Also, I don't think you can rank Black Cannary as a non powered martial artists, what with the Canary Cry... Yes, I was referring to Cassandra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist And Batman has been repeatedly schooled by Cassandra in sparring' date=' sometimes by truly humiliating margins. The one time Batman has ever matched her, she was under the influence of berserker drugs, with God only knows what effects on her.[/b'] To be honest, I take a very skeptical view of ranking Cassandra because she has been portrayed as SO over the top that it's either bad writing or she's metahuman. I could see her possible beating Batman but not as easily as she has before. Also, if you go by that sparring, then how is Bats able to go toe to toe with Shiva who pretty much matches Cassandra in BG 25? He can't and there's a really bad spiral of logic. The big secret of BG's success is her speed (I can see that) but also her ability to read people. Take that away and she was nothing. According to Batman, it would have taken her a year to be decent enough to wear the BG costume and *maybe* ten years, if ever, to be on his level. It gets wierder when you consider that Shiva has that ability too (indeed, she retrains Cassandra in it) but Shiva has never been able to dominate other TOP martial artists like Cassandra did. I guess the argument could be that BG is just better at it because she was trained from birth to use that skill but then it becomes a serious crutch. Maybe I'm just being creative but my take is that Batman has never gone full out on Cassandra. The only time he came close was in the above time you mentioned and even then, he didn't want to hurt her. That or it's just terrible writing and putting Cassandra at the level they did was just a BAD idea. I've basically seen her as DC's Taskmaster. I admitedly have little exposure to her, but when that fat blonde guy helped her talk it threw off her ability to "read" people in combat which had given her an edge. Don't know what happened after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Also, though there's no way I could prove such a thing, I think Wonder Woman deserves mention on this list. Yes, I know she's superpowered. But I believe, in terms of pure fighting skill, she's supposed to be the top, or one of the top, combatants in the DC Universe. In other words, she's ineligible for this list because she's superpowered, but I believe that if she somehow lost her powers and thereby became eligible, her skill alone would place her at or near the top of this list... yes, I kept the list to the mortals. I know Wonderwoman's Martial Arts score is higher than just about any of these guys; but to get her to spar with them she has to power down and so many restrictions must be put upon her that it is unweildy. Black Canary can easily forego her "Canary Cry" and just kick ***. As a matter of fact, she usually does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist That was the temporary powerdown I referred to in BATGIRL #8. Very soon after, Lady Shiva retrained Cassandra so that her abilities were on-line again. She then gave Cassandra a year to prepare, so that come their match-up in BATGIRL #25, she'd be taking Batgirl on at her peak, not in a weakened condition. ... yes, pride is a bugger, and God knows Shiva has more than her share. As for 'DC's Taskmaster' -- well, she has the ability to learn instantly from her foes, yes (to the point where she picked up Thanagarian martial arts in a minute, just from watching how the Shadow Thief attacked her), but unlike Taskmaster, she don't stop there. She can also operate at superhuman levels of strength and speed via chi control or somesuch (whereas Taskmaster is specifically unable to 'overclock' his body, even if he's duping somebody who has those skills), and divine an opponent's next move, intent, and emotional state simply from his body language, on an almost Cypher-like level (for body language at least, not for regular languages). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Now that you mention it' date=' that does seem to be some of the stuff that was in what I read/discussed. That Nightwing has a better DEX and SPD but not the levels or manuevers.[/quote'] Wait until my Batman write up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Black Canary can easily forego her "Canary Cry" and just kick ***. As a matter of fact' date=' she usually does.[/quote'] I like that bit of her characterization. 'Sure, I have the firepower of a rocket launcher mixed with the area-effect of a flame thrower in my vocal chords. I don't often use it, though. The martial arts are about control and precision, and the Canary Cry isn't about either.' Although she has been practicing some narrow-beam attacks, to the point where she was able to shatter a pool ball held in someone's hand without even making their fingers sting, so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist I'd agree with that. Given an approriate amount of time to reconfigure, I would concur as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist I did forget the Hawks. My bad. Glad they made someone's list. Btw, some of you guys need to post lists. But this discussion is far more civil than I had hoped. Probably what I get for keeping it to on comic company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted January 7, 2006 Report Share Posted January 7, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Just using the few I know, plus what I've heard of them (So there will be LOTS left out): 1) Lady Shiva 2) Batman 3) Black Canary 4) Nightwing 5) Batgirl 6) Catwoman 7) Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist All I ask is that you try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prometheus Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist 1. Richard Dragon 2. Lady Shiva, Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Conner Hawke 3. Batman, Bronze Tiger, Black Canary 4. Ra's Al Ghul, Kobra 5. Nightwing, Mr Terrific (Michael Holt), Talia, 6. Catwoman, Hawkman, King Snake 7. Wildcat, Cheshire, Question 8. Arsenal, Huntress, Hawkgirl 9. Catman 10.Robin, Shrike, Batgirl (Barbara Gordon) Given that some of these have "daisy chained" victories over one another (Mr. Terrific beat Kobra, Kobra beat Batman...) it's a little tough to get these into a satisfactory order, especially near the top. Potential ability (vs. demostrated ability) plays a tricky role as well. Hawkman and Hawkgirl both use Nth metal, which has been shown to enhance their abilities, but not necessarily their skill, and if Batman gets to keep this utility belt, then the Hawks are in, right? Catman got a nice power up in Villains United- he can be "creatively ruthless" when he needs to- but I don't feel he has the straight up moves to take say... Wildcat. I'd also argue that a full grown Tim Drake could mop the floor with Arsenal, but right now he doesn't have the skill to overcome the limitations of his size the way Cassandra does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist yes, I kept the list to the mortals. I know Wonderwoman's Martial Arts score is higher than just about any of these guys; but to get her to spar with them she has to power down and so many restrictions must be put upon her that it is unweildy. Black Canary can easily forego her "Canary Cry" and just kick ***. As a matter of fact, she usually does. Early Silver Age Wonder Woman spent a few years as the depowered martial arts student of a Chinese master named (with comic book logic) I Ching. Thanks to Hypertime, I must accept that those horrible stories, in some universe, did actually happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted January 8, 2006 Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Oh, and Squirrel Girl would kick all the DC Martial Artists' butts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Oh' date=' and Squirrel Girl would kick all the DC Martial Artists' butts.[/quote'] Now now. That's our little secret! after all only the two of us bought that comic right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Okay everyone let's get our picks in. Using a sliding vote scale (1st place =10 pts, 2nd =9, etc.) Lady Shiva is narrowly ahead of Richard Dragon despite placing first once to his perfect score, however, she was on the one ballot he was not and therefore has some extra points. Suprise? The Top ten are: 1 Lady Shiva (54pts) 2 Richard Dragon (50 pts) 3 Batman (49 pts) 4 Batgirl (Cassandra) (41) 5 Black Canary (40) 6 Bronze Tiger (36) 7 Conner Hawke (34) 8 Nightwing (32) 9 Wildcat (21) 10 Mr. Terrific II (20) of course this also depends heavily on whether Blue's vote for "Batgirl" is Barbara Gordon or Cassandra Cain. Let's get some more ballots in. I'm having fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2006 Re: DC's Best Martial Artist Oh and don't think a similar Marvel Ballot won't be forthcoming. Cause it will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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