House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

[Trained Chicken]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

Actually, even among the characters you name, few of them really demand a power framework- and the GM hasn't yet banned VPPs, has he? Or did I miss that one? Many of those characters can be built with a limited VPP more efficiently than with an EC or Multipower- and the rest can be built fairly well with a VPP or in certain cases, without a framework entirely.

 

 

Again though, without power frameworks, you're looking at very straightforward characters, many of whom will be straight-up hand to handers or superskill chars.

[actingkeith]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

I don't have a problem with a GM banning anything from a game, necessarily. I think the GM in this case is a bit daft and probably a simpleton, but that's not what concerns me.

 

Here's what would concern me in a game where Frameworks are banned... I would be pissed as hell if the GM's NPC were built with lots of Villain Bonus points to make up for the 'lack of efficiency' that Frameworks provide.

 

Other than that, as long as no one has Frameworks, I would feel that the game should be pretty balanced. I agree with the observations of others on this thread that there would be a prevalance of bricks, martial artists, and one-tricks, but that's not so bad as long as you can think in those terms (which is where I came of with the 'simpleton' comment above).

 

Personally, I wouldn't play with a GM like that. I'd have a hard time playing with a player who bad-mouthed Frameworks, let alone a GM who banned them for emotional reasons (ie he just doesn't like them).

 

Those are just my thoughts,

 

-Keith

[Kristopher]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

Well overall it should balance out. As long as he doesn't use power frameworks and the pc's dont use them the overall power level should equal out.

 

One thing I think needs to be pointed out is that the issue isn't balance between the NPCs and the PCs, because that's always up to the GM anyways...it's not as if the GM can't spend more points on NPCs to get the things that banning MPs and ECs denies to the PCs at their restricted point totals.

 

My main disagreement with the GM's decision is like many others who voiced their opinions, he isnt taking time out to truly understand how they work, their benefits, and limitations. The only way a person can possibly remain ignorant is if they choose not to learn.

 

He should be made aware though that his decision will make constructing certain character concepts more difficult. You'll end up with character who represent the Original X-men very well. But if someone is trying to create a character with a more complicated skills set such as {The Human Torch, Dr. Strange, Reed Richards (with his engineering genius), Super Skrull, HawkEye, Green Arrow, Batman, Iceman, Swampthing, Ultra Boy (Jo Nah), Green Lantern, Metamorpho, Animal Man, Inspector Gadget, Judge Dredd's Gun, The Mask, Storm, Zatanna, or Macguyvers swiss army knife} he would require alot more points. Even them some of the character concepts wouldnt be made as well outside of power frmawork.

[cutsleeve]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

Well the original poster said the GM banned all Power frameworks.

 

A friend of mine who runs Champions for our group has never hidden his dislike of multipowers and elemental controls (and VPPs too). At first he said that he never really fully grapsed how they worked (specifically MP's) but after we spent an hour explaining them to him his reasoning now is that he thinks that they are just "ways of munchkining points out of your character". He recently told us that he is considering starting up a new Champs game but not allowing any Power Frameworks of any kind to be used in the building of our characters. Several of us in the group aren't too thrilled about this idea and have told him so but he doesn't seem to care. We haven't abused the power frameworks. He just doesn't like them.

 

I think that he doesn't like for our PCs to have power frameworks because he doesn't use them when he creates his villains because of his dislike for them. This friend of mine also argues that Elemental Controls are supposed to be based on ELEMENTS, i.e. earth, air, fire, water or derivations thereof. In the recent past he has relented to allow things like cosmic energy or atomic energy.

Fazhoul

 

I took that to mean All Power frameworks EC's, Mp's, and VPP's.

Without any form of power frameworks all of those characters I mentioned would take quite a bit more effort to model decently.

[Badger]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

I still dont have quite the knack yet for creating them but doing without power frameworks?

 

Note: Though I dont particularly like VPPs myself, I know there several character types that need them to work properly. And I am all for a properly working game. And with diverse character types too.

[caris]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

The active cap was 90 points. And Brainwave did OK in combat. I never overwhelmed but I managed to avoid getting my a$s kicked too. The last campaign didn't last but a couple of months so he didn't get a long test of his effectiveness.

 

Ok, so you had six different attack powers all at the campaign's maximum active point limit. It is possible that is the whole of your GMs problem right there. Perhaps, your GM has an issue with some one being both that versatile and that powerful at the same time.

 

If I tried to build the mentalist whose powers I posted on page 2 of this thread without frameworks then I would have to cut his powers back to half their current strength. Either that or just start loading on limitations that really don't fit the character concept and in MY mind that is even more munchkiny. I could just as easily say that Brainwave gets his mental powers from an Independent (-2) IIF (-1/2) rather than his powers being inate but that's not the character concept I had. It's not like I'm wanting to play Superman or the Spectre and I'm cheesing their powers into the 350 limit by using frameworks. While Brainwave might not have exactly been a "starting level" character (in superhero terms' date=' not game terms) he was far from an overpowering character.[/quote']

 

I bolded part of your post for emphasis. You do realize that from in terms of the points that you paid you have the equivalent discount of over -4 worth of limitations on the powers in your MP? Why is -4 worth of limitations OK as a framework discount, but piling on other limitations is munchkiny?

[caris]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

Speaking of active caps, does anyone use different caps for frameworks vs "straight" powers? If the concern is that frameworks are too munchkiney, maybe one solution would be to allow non-frame characters an extra DC or two? Just thinking out loud...

 

 

bigdamnhero

 

I've tried on a couple of occasions, because I like the idea that the more versatile character shouldn't be hitting as hard as the more limited character, but I've found PC resistance to the idea to be too great.

[Dust Raven]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

While I agree that MPs are valuable' date=' they also can cause headaches. Invariably someone comes up with Dr. Every-Power-In-My-Multipower PC. We had one PC that had Flash, Drain, Energy Blast, Entangle, Teleport, TK, and several other powers in his MP. At some point it does turn into munchkin's paradise. I have wondered if there was a way to limit MPs somewhat, a certain number of powers available, and then required an adder or advantage to go over the set cap.[/quote']

 

There is. The GM can say "no". If for some reason that doesn't work, the GM can ask the rest of the players to throw stale cheese puffs at him until he surrenders.

[Dust Raven]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

Speaking of active caps, does anyone use different caps for frameworks vs "straight" powers? If the concern is that frameworks are too munchkiney, maybe one solution would be to allow non-frame characters an extra DC or two? Just thinking out loud...

 

 

bigdamnhero

 

Gary proposed just such an idea a while ago. I don't remember if there was every a general concensus, but I for one didn't like it. Caps asside, a character with a Multipower is already spending more points for the versitility, and there isn't any logical way to limit what caps should be on Powers should a character have more than one of them with or without a Framework.

 

Of course, I'm completely against the idea of Caps and Maximums in general...

[bigdamnhero]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

Gary proposed just such an idea a while ago. I don't remember if there was every a general concensus' date=' but I for one didn't like it. Caps asside, a character with a Multipower is already spending more points for the versitility, and there isn't any logical way to limit what caps should be on Powers should a character have more than one of them with or without a Framework.[/quote']

I would've been surprised if someone hadn't thought of it before. I'm not sure it's something I would want to do either, as I usually try to encourage versatility (within limits). But I thought some GMs may feel that players deserve some sort of bonus for "specializing."

[John Desmarais]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

I would've been surprised if someone hadn't thought of it before. I'm not sure it's something I would want to do either' date=' as I usually try to encourage versatility (within limits). But I thought some GMs may feel that players deserve some sort of bonus for "specializing."[/quote']

 

They're getting a bonus - more points to spend "somewhere" - Multipowers aren't free after all.

 

Two energy projectors, one with a 12d6 Energy Blast and another with a 60 point Multipower with five Energy powers in it (all ultra slots). Assuming no limitations, the specialized character spent 60 points, the versatile one spent 90 points. That leaves 30 points for the specialist to spend on other things (like SPD, DEX, REC, END, Levels, etc, etc) that could make him better at his one trick.

 

Now, admittedly, "no limitations" is probably not entirely realistic, but even with them it's safe to assume for the sake of argument that each character has approximately the same value in limitations (or, if anything, specialist concepts usually lend themselves to slightly more limitations) which still means that the specialist will have spend few total points on his Energy Blast than Multipower-Boy did. Even if the total difference ends up being less than the idealized 30 points, there is still going to be a difference that favors the specialist more often than not. This is his bonus for specializing and not using a multipower.

[Zephrosyne]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

I just started my campaign, actually, just converted the characters from 2nd Edition Mutants and Masterminds. While I don't have a problem with Elemental Control or Mulitpower Frameworks, I did ban Variable Power Pools outright. I don't like Variable Power Pools because I don't like anything that is that open-ended nor do I like the fact that they can slow the game down to a crawl. I do realize that certain concepts are virtually impossible without them and I am fine with that. In fairness, I don't create NPC's with them either, so it balances out.

 

This is my first time gming Hero System 5th Edition. I have three players: my best friend who is a munchkin from hell, his girlfriend (wannabe munchkin in training), and a guy who has never roleplayed before. My best friend is a very experienced roleplayer and his girlfriend has only been doing it for a few months. The last guy is totally new. The new guy's character I don't really have a problem with. It is a Wolverine knockoff (his favorite character) but not badly built. The girlfriend's character is a rather oddly built mentalist. My best friend's character makes me want to scream. Every time I see that character sheet, I get disgusted. I think he is an example of the reason that a gm would feel the way some feel about Frameworks. I don't know. Maybe I am a total neurotic. Whenever I build a character I have always made the background/concept first and then made the character. Roleplaying the character always game me so much more than kicking some bad guy's ***. Please, don't get me wrong. I am not some moronic fascist who thinks that everyone should roleplay the way I do. My best friend's character though, I would love to just butcher! Of course I won't do it and I hide my contempt because the character is built legally. He didn't violate any rules in the game and he didn't violate any of the few House Rules that I had established but I detest that character.

[Kristopher]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

I just started my campaign, actually, just converted the characters from 2nd Edition Mutants and Masterminds. While I don't have a problem with Elemental Control or Mulitpower Frameworks, I did ban Variable Power Pools outright. I don't like Variable Power Pools because I don't like anything that is that open-ended nor do I like the fact that they can slow the game down to a crawl. I do realize that certain concepts are virtually impossible without them and I am fine with that. In fairness, I don't create NPC's with them either, so it balances out.

 

This is my first time gming Hero System 5th Edition. I have three players: my best friend who is a munchkin from hell, his girlfriend (wannabe munchkin in training), and a guy who has never roleplayed before. My best friend is a very experienced roleplayer and his girlfriend has only been doing it for a few months. The last guy is totally new. The new guy's character I don't really have a problem with. It is a Wolverine knockoff (his favorite character) but not badly built. The girlfriend's character is a rather oddly built mentalist. My best friend's character makes me want to scream. Every time I see that character sheet, I get disgusted. I think he is an example of the reason that a gm would feel the way some feel about Frameworks. I don't know. Maybe I am a total neurotic. Whenever I build a character I have always made the background/concept first and then made the character. Roleplaying the character always game me so much more than kicking some bad guy's ***. Please, don't get me wrong. I am not some moronic fascist who thinks that everyone should roleplay the way I do. My best friend's character though, I would love to just butcher! Of course I won't do it and I hide my contempt because the character is built legally. He didn't violate any rules in the game and he didn't violate any of the few House Rules that I had established but I detest that character.

 

Examples. Give us examples. What makes you hate that character?

[Zephrosyne]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

First of all, like I said, I allowed the character and let them have total control over what they made (with the exception of my own House Rules, which are few) so I am to blame and I accept that. I just gave advice here and there when asked. Gming this system is new to me to and I am still learning the ropes myself. I work hard at it but it is a lot to digest. The only reason the character isn't worse is because he doesn't understand the system well enough to effectively min/max it. My problem is that I can see the blatant attempts at it. They are just piss poor.

 

The character has no Skills with the exception of Everyman Skills, Breakfall, Analyze, and Combat Skill Levels. I mean zilch for Background Skills. His powers are based on his ability to control darkness. Ironically enough, he can't even create an area of darkness. In other words, he doesn't even have the Darkness power. His reasoning is that it is too expensive. He has a Multipower that includes Energy Blast, Drain Speed, Entangle, Darkness (sight, hearing, combat sense)Usable as Attack w/Uncontrolled (I put my foot down at No Endurance), Healing (I put my foot down again when he tried for Resurrect), Flash (sight/mental sense groups). He has an Elemental Control that includes a Force Field, Teleportation, and a Force Wall. He also had the unmitigated gall to try to get me to accept "Hates Ham" and "Hates Wearing a Tuxedo" as legitimate Disadvantages. I was deemed unreasonable when I said "hell no."

 

It isn't that the build is so tough or too difficult to challenge or anything like that, it is just insulting. For god sakes, I'm the gm and I have the whole 600 page rulebook at my disposal to stomp a mud hole into his character if I was some insecure idiot who needed an ego stroke. The artist in me will accept a lot for a concept. I honestly can but "Mending Shadows" (the lame name for the Healing slot) was a lot to swallow. This thing or construct doesn't even look like a character to me. It looks like a mediocre attempt at min/maxing. I just know that when the next campaign comes around, I will assert myself more. I took a leap of faith and fell flat on my ***!

[John Desmarais]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

Drain Speed

 

Jut out of curiosity, what's the special effect for the Speed Drain?

[Sean Waters]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

Considering the total cost of a MP as the active points is one way to limit the damn things, so you could have a multipower with three ultra slots:

 

10d6 Flash

5d6 NND

5d6 AP explosion

 

OR

 

you could have a 13d6 EB

 

Same cost - is it the same utility?

 

Don't know, it depends.

 

On the face of it 13d6 guy should rule in a straight fight, but against agents and heavy armour, the other guy has the edge. Even in a straight fight, 13d6 guy is going to feel it if he doesn't have flash defence and the right defences for the NND.

 

Personally I kinda like this: it means that everyone in the damn game doesn't end up with a main attack that does the same damage.

[dbcowboy]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

He also had the unmitigated gall to try to get me to accept "Hates Ham" and "Hates Wearing a Tuxedo" as legitimate Disadvantages. I was deemed unreasonable when I said "hell no."

 

lol

 

A disadvantage that's not a disadvantage is NOT a disadvantage.

 

If it's not something that would ever come up in the game, no points. (now if his character is around pigs often or forced to wear a tuxedo often, okay maybe, I'd be entertained by the rationalization) He probably won't understand. You have my sympathies.

 

I'd let him leave them on there, fine roleplaying reminder for the character, but I'd make him either pick different disadvantages or give up the points to balance out the character.

 

Hates ham, hehe

[Kristopher]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

First of all, like I said, I allowed the character and let them have total control over what they made (with the exception of my own House Rules, which are few) so I am to blame and I accept that. I just gave advice here and there when asked. Gming this system is new to me to and I am still learning the ropes myself. I work hard at it but it is a lot to digest. The only reason the character isn't worse is because he doesn't understand the system well enough to effectively min/max it. My problem is that I can see the blatant attempts at it. They are just piss poor.

 

The character has no Skills with the exception of Everyman Skills, Breakfall, Analyze, and Combat Skill Levels. I mean zilch for Background Skills. His powers are based on his ability to control darkness. Ironically enough, he can't even create an area of darkness. In other words, he doesn't even have the Darkness power. His reasoning is that it is too expensive. He has a Multipower that includes Energy Blast, Drain Speed, Entangle, Darkness (sight, hearing, combat sense)Usable as Attack w/Uncontrolled (I put my foot down at No Endurance), Healing (I put my foot down again when he tried for Resurrect), Flash (sight/mental sense groups). He has an Elemental Control that includes a Force Field, Teleportation, and a Force Wall. He also had the unmitigated gall to try to get me to accept "Hates Ham" and "Hates Wearing a Tuxedo" as legitimate Disadvantages. I was deemed unreasonable when I said "hell no."

 

It isn't that the build is so tough or too difficult to challenge or anything like that, it is just insulting. For god sakes, I'm the gm and I have the whole 600 page rulebook at my disposal to stomp a mud hole into his character if I was some insecure idiot who needed an ego stroke. The artist in me will accept a lot for a concept. I honestly can but "Mending Shadows" (the lame name for the Healing slot) was a lot to swallow. This thing or construct doesn't even look like a character to me. It looks like a mediocre attempt at min/maxing. I just know that when the next campaign comes around, I will assert myself more. I took a leap of faith and fell flat on my ***!

 

It almost sounds like he was trying to build a dark/dark corrupter from City of Villains.

[Zephrosyne]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

Some nonsense about the shadows leeching the speed..er..energy out of the character blah, blah, blah. I asked him is this thing (I still refuse to acknowledge it as a character) really his concept. He said "yes." I said "fine." He is the one stuck playing it, not me.

[Vondy]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

I hate elemental controls.

 

I just wanted to say that.

 

I do, however, allow EC's. I'm notoriously picky when I review them, and I'm a rules tyrant as well, but for some concepts its the best solution when faced with hero's mechanical realities. I think, due to the point savings they allow, that they are way over-used.

 

I don't mind multi-powers, but then, there's an active point cap involved in their use, which seems to balance them out. I do, however, require that they be used for a conceptually related set of abilities that are fairly narrow (no grab bag multipowers).

 

I love Variable Power Pools. Its my preferred build method for characters who have a heavy SFX bent to their powers, or would otherwise end up with an EC, or an EC and an MP. I just write them up with a list of pre-set powers that fall within the campaign norms - since the VPP's are often big enough to run several powers at one time. This also allows the players to do "power tricks" by fiddling with advantages, or to pull out the "nova blast" (with pre-set limitations like extra-time and massive endurance cost). It also means we don't have to worry about the mechanics (in terms of XPs) for power suite growth, but can rely on Power Skills and story reasons instead.

[Sean Waters]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

lol

 

A disadvantage that's not a disadvantage is NOT a disadvantage.

 

If it's not something that would ever come up in the game, no points. (now if his character is around pigs often or forced to wear a tuxedo often, okay maybe, I'd be entertained by the rationalization) He probably won't understand. You have my sympathies.

 

I'd let him leave them on there, fine roleplaying reminder for the character, but I'd make him either pick different disadvantages or give up the points to balance out the character.

 

Hates ham, hehe

 

 

My preferred method of dealing with this kiind of infantile abuse is to allow it.

 

If a disadvantage is on the character sheet and you have received points for it, it WILL be a disadvantage.

 

Half way through a major battle with the villains, Our Hero will suddenly notice a carnival parade going by, and on one of the floats there is a mock-up of the Three Little Pigs nursery rhyme, featuring three pigs in evening wear.

 

He'll find himself abandoning the battle and his team mates to go and terrify children by eviscerating the three jolly porkers. He loses the battle, gets his team crippled and garners more bad publicity in one turn than most can manage in an entire campaign.

 

He can hardly complain: he put it there....and you can drop hints that this sort of thing is not uncommon in the campaign city....

 

He certainly will hate ham and tuxedos by the end of the game

[bigdamnhero]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

Half way through a major battle with the villains' date=' Our Hero will suddenly notice a carnival parade going by, and on one of the floats there is a mock-up of the Three Little Pigs nursery rhyme, featuring three pigs in evening wear.[/quote']

 

Zephrosyne, you have my sympathies. There are players who regard character creation as an opportunity to develop a unique and interesting fictional person, and there are those who regard it simply as an exercise in getting the most bang for their buck. While I hesitate to say the latter are "wrong", I don't generally enjoy gaming with them.

 

The way I've handled similar (`tho less eggregious, thank god) situations in the past is to let it slide... for now. Then after a couple sessions, sit down with the player and say "Dude, do you have some ideas for how I can work your disads into the game? Because I've got nothing." Admit defeat and put the burden on the player to give you some examples of how he thinks this will come up in game play. If he can't come up with anything, then present him with Sean's scenario and ask if that's the kind of campaign he wants to play in. Tell him you think those are fine as personality quirks, but "Frequency: Hardly Ever" just isn't worth any points.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

The character has no Skills with the exception of Everyman Skills' date=' Breakfall, Analyze, and Combat Skill Levels. I mean zilch for Background Skills. [/quote']

For just about every Hero campaign I've ever run I've required a minimum of 10 points worth of Background Skill. It also helps serve as an early warning system: if a player gives me grief over it or can't come up with a measly 10 points of non-munchkin skills, then I know he's probably not someone I want to game with.

[Enforcer84]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

I require my players to put the EC into Mutlipowers. It speeds up my insanity.

[John Desmarais]

Re: House Rule: Banning Multipowers & Elemental Controls?

 

I require my players to put the EC into Mutlipowers. It speeds up my insanity.

 

That's silly. All right thinking people put VPPs inside of Multipowers. ECs are only for characteristics.