Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

[Herolover]

Hello all,

 

I am gamemastering a new teen champions campaign and the above situation could actually occur and I am wondering how other GM's handle situations as this. Let me explain.

 

Teen PCs have lower point totals and lower active points than normal. I don't have a problem with this, in fact, I think it is right. I also don't have a problem coming up with foes or adjusting existing characters to be their allies or foes.

 

However, in this situation I hesitate to "adjust" a Minuteman since it is standard of the Champions Universe. It would be, to me, much like me adjusting Dr. Destroyer so my PCs could take him on. He is meant to be a real baddy that gives normal heroes a hesitation.

 

Now, I know some tricks to allow my teens to fight this baddy and live, maybe even, with luck, beat it. However, I was wondering how others would handle such a thing....

 

a) adjust the Minuteman anyway and just forget about the fact that the other adult supers are supposed to have trouble with these.

 

or

 

run the Minuteman as it and just hope your players are smart enough to run and let what happens happen.

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

If you are just starting your campaign, I see no reason to assume the MM are the latest and greatest. When I began a couple of decades ago, MM were at the Mk5 level and supers were 250 points. As the power of my players increased, Genocide simply upgraded to the Mk6, Mk7 and so on. Also as a particular hero's weaknesses where determined the MM were refitted to affect that hero i.e. for War Eagle in my campaign there was a MM Mk7a that used cold powers. Start your MM as MK1 and build them up as your PCs grow.

[Alric]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

You can adjust the minuteman without messing with any continuity. Have the minuteman be damaged or maybe partially disassembled before the fight starts. Perhaps this particular minuteman had been damaged and waiting for repair when the teens showed up.

 

Perhaps the techs were planning on upgrading the minuteman's armor but only got as far as removing some of the components when the minuteman was suddenly needed. But since the targets are a bunch of kids the minuteman should still have no problem....

 

Finally it could be an early prototype. "They're just a bunch of kids, let's save the big guns for the real threats."

 

All of these options preserve the "badass" status of the minutemen and still give the PCs a fighting chance.

[Herolover]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

I agree with all that was said. I know the tricks of making the minuteman work. In fact, the minuteman they are fighting, is going to be very experimental and therefore have some activation rolls, some weakness, and it will even loose a couple of actions due to "computer errors."

 

If, there were no other supers in the world I would agree that starting out at MkI is the way to go. However, how would you justify the fact that your teen pc's can just handle a MK I while the big bad Champions super team can't? Do you ignore it? Do you say Minuteman or only a threat to low level supers? If you then want to run a high level normal campaign in the same universe how do you justify using minutemen?

[Zed-F]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

Aside from the computer issues and so forth to make it fight less effectively, there are other options as well. Perhaps its mission isn't actually to go after the kids, but to go after someone else. The kids are just a distraction, and not something the MM will expend its full attention on -- it wants to swat them out of the way so it can go after the real target. Or perhaps the kids can get expert advice on some of the design differences between this MM and a standard MM that will give them a chance to disable it in some fashion that's more readily achievable than what would normally be required to destroy the thing outright.

[Kenn]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

The question I have, are there other groups of PCs, using your specific copy of the Champions Universe? Lots of people use the Champions Universe setting, but your Champions Universe has your group of PCs on it. That makes it unique. Unless there are other groups of PCs who could, theoretically meet this group of PCs.

 

If you alter the Minute Man, in a contained universe, it shouldn't matter. Unless you're afraid your players will say "boy on a good day, Defender wouldn't do as well as I just did" or something similar, it shouldn't matter becaus ethey'r ethe only ones who might know.

 

If you share this specific world with anyone, then you should discuss the situation with them, as you probably don't want to alter the tone of his game.

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

Genocide, like every other 'company' has a bottom line. Sometimes ya just can't afford to upgrade every piece of equipment ya got in the warehouse. And why send a state-of-the-art MM Mk10 after a couple of low level mutant kids? You know how much it costs to build a new one? Send out a couple of the older models to take care of the light-weights. They are just some kids, right?

 

Heck, I work for the government and I JUST got rid of my NT computer . . . the P1, 300 meg with 128 meg of RAM . . . now I have Windows 2000 and a 750 mhz cpu!

[Herolover]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

Genocide, like every other 'company' has a bottom line. Sometimes ya just can't afford to upgrade every piece of equipment ya got in the warehouse. And why send a state-of-the-art MM Mk10 after a couple of low level mutant kids? You know how much it costs to build a new one? Send out a couple of the older models to take care of the light-weights. They are just some kids, right?

 

Heck, I work for the government and I JUST got rid of my NT computer . . . the P1, 300 meg with 128 meg of RAM . . . now I have Windows 2000 and a 750 mhz cpu!

 

lol Yep that is is the way to go. I love it actually. I still may go through with the way I have it, but this is a good way of doing things.

 

 

I was thinking more in the lines of how do you handle a situation when your teen PCs run into someone that should be obviously out of their leauge. Do you adjust them, or just run them?

[Ghost Archer]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

Depends on what kind of result you want. I used a villain, always a single villain, that was obviously way more powerful to try to instill in my new players the concept of TEAM work. I never actually worried about cutting back my villains since I liked using that big stick to beat a point into their collective heads. It never really worked, sadly.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

lol Yep that is is the way to go. I love it actually. I still may go through with the way I have it, but this is a good way of doing things.

 

 

I was thinking more in the lines of how do you handle a situation when your teen PCs run into someone that should be obviously out of their leauge. Do you adjust them, or just run them?

 

Find a way for them to live. Then apply hammer.

[Powerhouse]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

Good suggestions all around. Partly, I think it depends on what the scenario is and why the MM is being used. If it's being sent to grab a single low powered super (like one of the PC's), a single basic model without enhancments works well. The PC's are simply something that wasn't anticipated and this gives them a chance.

 

Also, perhaps the MM wants to capture a target. In that case, it's kill orders have been disabled and this applies to unintentional targets as well. Again, a way to let the PC's survive.

 

Finally, have there be stuff around to help the PC's out like a truck full of gasoline to smash the MM into or a huge wrecking ball. Also, it's a great time for them to learn teamwork. Just be sure that you instill some fear into the PC's since they are SUPPOSED to be terrified of the MM's. Play up that this thing is a killer and a real threat (maybe have one remember how a MM killed a famous hero). When the team wins, at cleanup have someone note that it was an older model and then let the team quake a bit.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

You could always make a stripped-down, non-giant version called a Midgetman?

[KA.]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

One thing to remember is that it is often not the opponent that is deadly, it is the situation.

 

If the PC's are given to believe that the Minuteman is going to hunt them down and kill them, or kill innocents in an attempt to kill them, then they have little choice but to fight to the death, most likely their own, unless you tone it way down.

 

If you set up the situation so that all they need to do is delay it for a certain amount of time (it is actively chasing another mutant and will only really smash them if it must do so to complete its mission), they should be okay.

 

Also, if you aren't running an Iron Age campaign, there is no reason for it to even attempt to destroy them on sight.

 

Minutemen could easily have orders to capture all previously unknown mutants for study.

Perhaps they are looking for an "anti-mutant" that cancels powers, or a telepathic mutant that could help round up other mutants, etc.

In which case they would need to make sure they didn't "kill the goose that lays the golden eggs" by snuffing such a mutant out before they were able to study and use it.

 

I would hesitate to put underpowered heroes in a situation where they face an enemy that can, and has cause to, obliterate them with a single attack, because that is just the same as creating a D&D style deathtrap.

 

But, I have no problem with having the players encounter something that they just have to run away from, for the time being.

 

As long as you don't set up a situation where running away is going to get innocent people killed, or have other unacceptable side effects, other than bruised egos, I don't see a problem.

 

KA.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

You could always make a stripped-down' date=' non-giant version called a Midgetman? [/quote']

Do I need to break out the rolled up newspaper?

 

Personally, I'd just adjust the Minuteman. If necessary, as others have suggested, they shipped out a model that wasn't quite up to snuff. Alternately, it's a threat to other supers because it has their data analyzed, knows the tactics to use, and has its weapons fine-tuned to work against each individual super. Your heroes, being newbies, have an advantage in that they're not in the database, so it doesn't have a freakin' clue what to do about the guy throwing these particular fireballs at it. Sure, standard tactics can work, but they're not as good as something fine-tuned to work against, say, Feuermacher.

[Freebooter]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

You know, this is the exact problem I was having for my campaign. I couldn't think of how to 'strip down' the MM's to adjust for Teen Champions power levels.

[Herolover]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

This question was meant to be more philosophical about how different GM'S run their campaigns. Do you strip down every villain, or do you run villains as is.

 

As far as stripping down a villain there are many ways of doing it. The main thing to remember is there are more ways of doing things than just changing the character sheet.

 

Look at the environment the fight is going on in.

Perhaps the foe has already been in a fight and is hurt.

Perhaps his power supply is low...imagine a villain that has just fought battle, after battle, after battle and their endurance (per LTE) is low.

 

D&D gives a lot of examples on how to take a power foe and let them fight a low power hero.

 

Another way to think of it is you say that you have a problem lowering the minuteman to fight. The real question is do you lower minuteman across the board therefore weakening their power for the entire campaign world or do you just come up reasons why this particular one is limited?

[HeroGM]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

Do what they originaly did. Make them fight in/around a mall.

[Mushroom1972]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

Alternately' date=' it's a threat to other supers because it has their data analyzed, knows the tactics to use, and has its weapons fine-tuned to work against each individual super. [/quote']

 

Which (assuming they aren't just a one-off) also allows the classic bit where they learn from every encounter: the first Minuteman they meet is blindsided to the point of ineffectiveness, but the next one's just a wee bit better....

 

I've used that one before, and it's amusing how hard the players will work to stop the effect, once they're aware of it. As I recall, my version required at least one of the robots to survive, to get the files back to HQ. Once the team found that out, they got absolutely brutal.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

I've used that one before' date=' and it's amusing how hard the players will work to stop the effect, once they're aware of it. As I recall, my version required at least one of the robots to survive, to get the files back to HQ. Once the team found that out, they got absolutely [i']brutal[/i].

Hmm... sounds like the designers needed to figure out radio transmitters.

[wagnern]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

to me the hardest part of going aganst a highlevel baddies is that the activepoints of your attacks may not beable to overcome the defences of the baddie. So to me the easiest way to make them defeatable but by not weakining them is reduce their flat defences, but give them some damage reduction. This way the teens can knickle and dime them down.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

Assuming we're talking about the Minuteman writeup from Champions Universe, there's a very interesting element to it. Even though it's described as having "subroutines so advanced it almost seems like a living human" (CU p. 146), that's not how it's written. The robot has the full suite of Automaton Powers, meaning that it's immune to Mental Powers, but normally can only follow a number of simple commands equal to its INT score. More flexible, sophisticated responses would require a Computer brain, but the Minuteman writeup doesn't have one. (I once asked Steve Long about this, and he said that he intended to include one, but just forgot.) Essentially, then, you'd already have to modify this writeup to make the robot as capable as its background describes it.

 

However, as others have pointed out, there's no reason why the IHA has to use the most sophisticated version of this robot available (of which they may have limited numbers), especially against a bunch of kids. So you have justification to play the Minuteman "stupid." A few logical extensions of that:

 

The robot has been given a less sophisticated Computer brain, rather than a full Artificial Intelligence device;

 

The robot is being given orders remotely via radio link. If the teen supers can detect the transmission and jam it (Flash, Darkness etc.), the robot will either stop functioning while awaiting orders, or blindly follow its last command;

 

There are IHA operatives nearby commanding the robot. Taking them out would give the same results as above.

 

Of course, if the youngsters prove capable enough to take down this more limited Minuteman, the next one the IHA sends after them will be top of the line and smart as a whip.

[starblaze]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

Maybe the anti-mutant people that they run into, whether it be Genocide or IHA (I personally prefer the latter) are just a small chapter of the organization and they simply don't have the really expensive state of the art stuff available. They may only have later models to work with instead of the really scary stuff. Then as the heroes because a greater threat, higher-ups within the organization will start noticing them and when they have the appropriate experience they will then be able to take on the big guns.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

One idea I just thought of for a stripped-down Minuteman would be to simply not give it a top-of-the-line weapons system. That modular multicannon thingy can be nasty.

 

I ran a variant of these guys once where each one had a VPP, but it only changed at the base; they were modular, but not adaptable on the fly. Each recieved a weapons system designed for a particular PC (they were a high-profile Avengers/JLA team) that completely hosed the designated target; the key, of course, was to mix and match your opponents and keep the robots away from their 'designated prey'.

[JmOz]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

I would go with that they use last years model (or actualy a few years out of date) because they are expensive and basicaly a bunch of newbs should be easy pickings =)

[Mushroom1972]

Re: Teen Champions PCs vs Minuteman.

 

Hmm... sounds like the designers needed to figure out radio transmitters.

 

The hand-wave was that they wanted to maintain radio silence, rather than potentially attract attention from opponents other than the target. Plus a side helping of arrogance: if everything goes according to plan, the target's dead, so why bother processing all that data?

 

(The real reason, of course, was to give the PCs a way to affect the outcome... Sometimes, they astonish me with their resourcefulness; other times, I'm amazed they can find their way out of bed in the morning...)