CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

[Guest Goradin]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

I agree, Lord Liaden, but hopefully they will throw us a bone or ten in the revision.

[rjcurrie]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Just to remind people what Steve said in the first post of this thread:

 

Howdy folx! Time for another "consumer input" thread.

 

This past weekend, at DunDraCon, we sold pretty much the last copy of Champions we had in stock. That means we're considering doing a reprint in the near future. Since we're no longer working with the printer who printed it initially, that raises the possibility of making some changes. Primarily of course we'll update to 5ER page references and correct known typos and errata, but if we wanted to we might be able to add some material. So, we thought we'd ask what you might like to see in Champions that isn't already there, but with these caveats:

 

1. Whatever is added has to be added at the end of the book, as an appendix or the like. We're not going to rewrite text or change the layout of the book.

 

2. Whatever is added has to be relatively short. Adding a few dozen pages is a possibility, but we're not going to double the size of the book or any other such nonsense.

 

3. Whatever is added cannot invalidate existing books, or duplicate their coverage to such an extent that it makes it less likely that you'll buy them.

 

 

As I mentioned to a couple people at GenCon, one possibility that has occurred to me is adding a 40-page appendix, with each page containing say 6-12 sample powers from one of the special effects in the USPD (which has about 40 power categories). Or maybe it'd be 20 pages, each category getting a half page; I dunno yet. That's the sort of idea we're looking for.

 

So, with that in mind -- what do you think we should add? What would make Champions more useful to you?

 

 

Basically, the real purpose of a revised version would be to update it to match 5ER and correct typos since moving to a new printer would mean creating new masters. Now, of course, such an update wouldn't probably sell many copies to existing owners of the book, so the new material might tempt some of those into buying it. Of course, ideally such material would also be something that would make people who don't already own the book more tempted to buy it too.

[Balabanto]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Bring back the character creation checklist from 4th edition. That was the best half page EVER.

 

And bring back the campaign parameters sheet. You have no idea how valuble that thing is.

[ghost-angel]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Bring back the character creation checklist from 4th edition. That was the best half page EVER.

 

And bring back the campaign parameters sheet. You have no idea how valuble that thing is.

 

Both of those, or variants of them, are in the Resource Kit.

[Captain Liberty]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

What Resource Kit is that? Last time I checked, and that was some time ago, the Resource Kit was long out of print. And Steve was saying they were not going to reprint it. Of course, things may have changed in the 3 years or so I have not been able to access the Hero servers at work. What changed, by the way?

[Captain Liberty]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

What one of the core books really needs is a return of "Goodman Says."

[ghost-angel]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

What Resource Kit is that? Last time I checked' date=' and that was some time ago, the Resource Kit was long out of print. And Steve was saying they were not going to reprint it. Of course, things may have changed in the 3 years or so I have not been able to access the Hero servers at work. What changed, by the way?[/quote']

 

The Hero System Resource Kit was reprinted somewhere around 2005, early on I think too. Or maybe late 2004.

 

Either way - it's in the online store as both hardcopy and PDF.

[The Main Man]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Another thing that I would like is perhaps further elaboration on each comic age.

Why not a hero and a villain example each for them?

I have frequently read about how the current age is often called Steel, and it would be interesting if it was detailed in this new book.

[Steve Long]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

The Hero System Resource Kit was reprinted somewhere around 2005, early on I think too. Or maybe late 2004.

 

No, we didn't reprint it. We found a few extra boxes of it squirrelled away in the printer's warehouse -- an overage the printer had forgotten about, apparently, since they sent us all that we ordered and we sold all of 'em.

 

When the contents of those few boxes run out, it's gone for good -- so get it while you can!

[ghost-angel]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

No, we didn't reprint it. We found a few extra boxes of it squirrelled away in the printer's warehouse -- an overage the printer had forgotten about, apparently, since they sent us all that we ordered and we sold all of 'em.

 

When the contents of those few boxes run out, it's gone for good -- so get it while you can!

 

Ah, OK. I just remembered it reappearing after I'd failed to get one. Thought it was a second printing.

 

Well, then everyone should go get one because it's a dang useful playing aid.

 

So, I suppose that makes two titles officially out of print. Of course that there are still Kits left says something about its sales. . .

[BNakagawa]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

A revised credits page, I guess.

[Captain Liberty]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Having settled that (1) the new pages should not duplicate anything in print and (2) the Resource Kit is essentially out of print except for the copies found at the printers.

 

The obvious thing is to put the resource kit material, or at least the Champions-pertinent material, in the new version of Champions.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Mind you, the Resource Kit is and presumably will continue to be available in PDF form.

[ghost-angel]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Having settled that (1) the new pages should not duplicate anything in print and (2) the Resource Kit is essentially out of print except for the copies found at the printers.

 

The obvious thing is to put the resource kit material, or at least the Champions-pertinent material, in the new version of Champions.

 

There wasn't much in the way of Champions Material in the RSK. Mostly the RSK is all the point costs of Skills/Perks/Talents/Powers from 5th, and some generic maps.

[zakueins]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Add a "life cycle of the Superhero" from the early days to when he retires-shouldn't take up more than about 4-5 pages, with a few character sheets thrown in to make us know what it looks like as a character "grows up".

[Captain Liberty]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

I like the life cycle idea.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Add a "life cycle of the Superhero" from the early days to when he retires-shouldn't take up more than about 4-5 pages' date=' with a few character sheets thrown in to make us know what it looks like as a character "grows up".[/quote']

Brilliant Idea Sir!

 

 

I like it alot!!!

 

 

QM

[BobGreenwade]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Add a "life cycle of the Superhero" from the early days to when he retires-shouldn't take up more than about 4-5 pages' date=' with a few character sheets thrown in to make us know what it looks like as a character "grows up".[/quote']

 

I'll add my voice to the chorus of approval for this idea.

[Scott Baker]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Add a "life cycle of the Superhero" from the early days to when he retires-shouldn't take up more than about 4-5 pages' date=' with a few character sheets thrown in to make us know what it looks like as a character "grows up".[/quote']

 

That does sound like a good idea. It has my vote for inclusion.

 

Scott Baker

[ghost-angel]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Throw my two pennies in of the Life Cycle idea - that is pretty sweet.

[wylodmayer]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

I'd like to see some charts showing the attribute and power distributions, in very general form, within the CU.

 

I don't mean for you guys to have to index every single character in the CU, but it would be helpful to me to have some idea of the comparitive power levels in the "official" continuity, such as it is. For instance, starting characters can easily afford obscene amounts of, say, Martial Arts only skill levels. Holding constant for DEX, though, it would be helpful to know that (let's say) a character who is described in one supplement as "one of the greatest martial artists to ever live" might have only, say, ten skill levels applicable to his MA. That gives me - and my players - some context for purchasing MA skill levels.

 

It goes back to a discussion I had elsewhere on these boards about minmaxing. While I have no trouble with optimized character builds, I like for there to be some non-mechanical content attached to the various numbers; it gives players motivation other than particular levels of efficiency to buy (or not buy!) certain things. It's certainly made a difference in my campaigns.

 

One of the most outstanding examples of this I can think of would be STR in my Marvel campaign. Marvel has established, through the OHATMU, that folks who can lift about 100 tons are at the upper end of strength in their universe. But a Champions character can easily afford to start stronger than that. Now, I have no problem with letting a PC be "the strongest," but it's a choice that would need to be made in context, and it would have serious implications for the status of that character in the game-world. It was thus important for my players to know if their planned purchases would send them sailing past Thor in terms of Strength, or Mr Fantastic in terms of Intelligence, etc.

 

Basically, I'd like some idea of where these "benchmarks" are in the CU - a couple of charts, a la MSHRPG or Mayfair's DC Heroes, would be easy to produce. Heck, I cobbled together some for my Marvel game, benchmarking not only stats but attacks and movement as well. I'd be happy to share them... or even do the research and write them for the CU myself!

 

Either way, it would give me a little more of a "feel" for the CU. I've been reading Marvel comics - and playing Marvel RPGs! - for so long, I instinctively know who's smarter than whom, who's stronger and faster than whom. I don't have such a feel for the CU, in part because I don't have thirty years of reading CU comics to fall back on when making those kinds of judgments. Charts like the kind I'm talking about would really help me feel as comfy in "eyeballing" things for the CU as I am in "established" universes like DC and Marvel, which would make my campaigns a lot better.

 

Thanks.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

While the above might have been helpful in CU:NotW, I don't know how appropriate it would be for an updated Champions genre book. Maybe something on power distributions in general for a superhero world, with the CU as a sample?

[wylodmayer]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

Sorry, I thought we were talking about Champions Universe. Brain fuzzy. My bad.

 

Although... it could still make a decent example, in abbreviated form, of how to do that kind of thing, and the importance it might have to setting up your campaign.

[JimLotFP]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

About Champions...

 

There is a fundamental disconnect in that the book talks about adapting comic book traits for gaming, but it barely actually talks about comic books. Also, sometimes the text will mention specific things from comic books (Gwen Stacy's death stood out) yet most of the time it'll reference things in a sly, "you know what we're talking about" *wink wink nudge nudge* kind of way. While I understand that it's probably a bad idea to come out and say "This is Green Goblin's glider" or "This is Rogue's absorption power" in things like USPD and Gadgets and Gear, it really makes an explanatory text like Champions come across as snarky and leaves a me wondering how many references are in there that I didn't recognize.

 

My suggestion is to add an appendix talking about comic books themselves. Create a massive bibliography/reading/viewing list with an eye towards creating a resource that nails down specific runs (with issue numbers and year of release) and describes what comic book themes they created or at least best represent, in order to tie all of the talk of those themes in the main text to their source material.

 

It's not unreasonable to assume that a Champions player is already a comic book fan, but it is unreasonable to assume that they have encyclopedic knowledge on the matter, or aren't up for seeing a new, well-educated take on things.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: CHAMPIONS REVISED -- If We Do It, What Would You Like To See?

 

....

 

My suggestion is to add an appendix talking about comic books themselves. Create a massive bibliography/reading/viewing list with an eye towards creating a resource that nails down specific runs (with issue numbers and year of release) and describes what comic book themes they created or at least best represent, in order to tie all of the talk of those themes in the main text to their source material.

 

...

 

The likely reason for the lack of specific citing is that HERO/DOJ does not currently have the license to publish Hero System writeups of DC, Marvel or any other comic publisher's character's or their items (like Thor's hammer or Captain America's shield). To do anything more specific than they already have would probably open them up to lawsuit. Remember, Steve Long has a law degree.