Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

[Metaphysician]

While reading my copy of CU Update, and discussing it with friends, the matter came up of Nightwind.

 

Specifically, he lacks a CvK, and carries a pair of rather big pistols. The rest of the team, by comparison, are all full CvK people.

 

Wouldn't this contradict to an extent? Or, does Nightwind explicitly restrict how lethal his gunplay is? Or, is part of his membership the implied requirement that he restrict himself to nondeadly force? Or, do the Champions not actually expect other heroes to necessarily live up to a total refusal to take a life, they just follow such codes themselves ( which contradicts the book definition of Total CvK, though I don't hugely object )?

[MitchellS]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

It seems to me that the guns are a rather small part of Nightwind's overall arsenal. My copy of CU:NotW hasn't arrived yet so I don't know if Nightwind gets a new writeup but his MC writeup gives him a 30 point VPP for weapons, so it seems to me the guns are more of an afterthought then a first-choice weapon.

 

I also think there's a certain game disconnect required. Within the context of the game guns are often no more lethal then anything else when you take normals out of the equation [and even then a normal is going to be killed by a 12d6 eb more quickly then he is a 2d6+1 desert eagle]. So Nightwind is not any more lethal then Defender within the context of the game.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

I think it would also be fair to say that lack of a Code Versus Killing Disadvantage doesn't mean that the person is willing to use lethal force as a matter of course. Police carry guns and are prepared to use them if necessary, but that's usually their last resort. For the kind of foes superheroes face, guns often can't be considered lethal, anyway. Nightwind's original writeup pointed out that he carried them to help compensate for his lack of an innate ranged attack, but his HTH abilities are his first preference in combat.

[Steve]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

His unarmed attacks are pretty lethal to normals, but his write-up doesn't make me think he's the killing type even without a CvK. Since he's part of a four-color team, his lack of a CvK doesn't preclude having a 0-point "Reluctant to Kill" default psych.

 

I don't think he's a bad fit, and every team can use someone who is more edgy than the rest.

[Balabanto]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

Look. Time for a reality check. Yes, lethal force is not an only option. Yes, a 12d6 EB stands a better chance of killing a normal than a 2d6+1 RKA.

 

BUT....

 

A killing attack is STILL a KILLING attack. It is obvious that it is a KILLING attack. The villains know you are trying to kill them. YOU know you are trying to kill them.

 

But these aren't the only situations in the game.

 

Last night, I was playing in an online game, where someone informed me that a DINER WINDOW (Somehow made bulletproof) was DEF 12, BODY 1. Now, I was like...holy !@#$$%!. A DINER WINDOW? So, yes, my character could do 16d6 of move through damage TO HEROICALLY CRASH THROUGH THE WINDOW IN A DRAMATICALLY APPROPRIATE MANNER!

 

There are a lot of things in the game that don't always make sense, and yes, my character took 15 stun for crashing through the window. That was stupid too. But please don't bash the game designers for the design before reading the background in conjunction with the sheet, and immediately assume he's going to resort to the KA as the first option.

 

When it comes to mechanics and presentation, I disagree with Steve and Darren a lot. Sometimes too much. But for god's sake let them present the material and read it THOROUGHLY before you make a judgement.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

Um. . . huh?

 

I'm pretty sure everybody here, myself included, *has* read the Nightwind writeup. And the writeup does, in fact, leave it ambiguous over how often he uses lethal force ( distinct from intentionally nonlethal uses of his pistols, note ).

 

This doesn't automatically disqualify him from being a superhero, anymore than it did Green Arrow or Hawkeye ( who carry plenty of sharp pointy things ). It just makes him look a tad odd next to the rest of his new teammates. Hence the question for discussion.

 

( though frankly, given his martial arts skills, he could probably ditch the pistols and make little difference in his fighting ability. . . )

[MitchellS]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

Look. Time for a reality check. Yes, lethal force is not an only option. Yes, a 12d6 EB stands a better chance of killing a normal than a 2d6+1 RKA.

 

BUT....

 

A killing attack is STILL a KILLING attack. It is obvious that it is a KILLING attack. The villains know you are trying to kill them. YOU know you are trying to kill them.

A killing attack doesn't mean anything if it can't really injure someone, so there's no intent to kill in most cases. For example, CKC has 78 characters with 8 resistant defense or higher [8 being the average on 2d6+1], 10 characters with resistant defenses below 8, and only 1 character with none at all. That basically means 88% of the characters don't care if you're trying to kill them or not. Sometimes intent and mechanics don't coexist.

 

Last night, I was playing in an online game, where someone informed me that a DINER WINDOW (Somehow made bulletproof) was DEF 12, BODY 1. Now, I was like...holy !@#$$%!. A DINER WINDOW? So, yes, my character could do 16d6 of move through damage TO HEROICALLY CRASH THROUGH THE WINDOW IN A DRAMATICALLY APPROPRIATE MANNER!

Considering the book lists glass as 1/1 and reinforced glass as 2/1 I'd say your GM hosed you.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

Yeah. Even bulletproof glass probably doesn't have a defense higher than 8, unless its a distinctly obvious and thick quartz crystal barrier ( which isn't glass by any stretch ).

[MitchellS]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

I'm pretty sure everybody here' date=' myself included, *has* read the Nightwind writeup. And the writeup does, in fact, leave it ambiguous over how often he uses lethal force ( distinct from intentionally nonlethal uses of his pistols, note ).[/quote']

I don't think it's ambiguous at all. There's nothing in the writeup that suggests he's out prowling the streets with guns in hand taking down badguys. The writeup even states he won't use weapons unless someone else does and that he always fights honorably. There's nothing to suggest he has ever killed anyone or wanted to.

[Balabanto]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

Mitchell, this is yet another case where you have this thing called assault with intent.

 

Yes. Clearly players do not believe that the attempt to kill them can succeed, and you as a GM might not either. But quite frankly, it annoys me greatly that a killing attack in some games is not immediately recognizable as such.

 

Can the PC or NPC LAUGH at the weak KA? Sure.

 

But the point, I guess is that maybe that NPC's reaction might be different. He or she now knows that someone attempted to end his life. So let the consequences begin.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

Point, but it also doesn't contain the usual elements for non-killer weapon users, like Targetting Skill Levels. And technically, "unless they use them first" includes the vast majority of thug and mook opposition, who are also the ones most likely to end up dead if shot.

 

I don't think your reading is impossible, or even unlikely. I just wish they were a little more specific.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

Mitchell, this is yet another case where you have this thing called assault with intent.

 

Yes. Clearly players do not believe that the attempt to kill them can succeed, and you as a GM might not either. But quite frankly, it annoys me greatly that a killing attack in some games is not immediately recognizable as such.

 

Can the PC or NPC LAUGH at the weak KA? Sure.

 

But the point, I guess is that maybe that NPC's reaction might be different. He or she now knows that someone attempted to end his life. So let the consequences begin.

 

If they have 8/8 resistant defense of a persistent variety? It'd take a big stretch for them to argue someone just tried to end their life by shooting handguns at them.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

Mmm... though I still wonder about that, at least for some folks.

 

Binder might recognize it as an attempt to kill him and call foul, so to speak. Grond might just try to squish you more for making a loud noise. But Ogre's going to laugh at you and not care that you just pulled out a gun - not because of his psych lims, but because *he* knows, just the way the rest of the world does, that the gun is going to be utterly useless against him 99% of the time. Heck, against any decent brick, you could almost consider standard firearms, as written, non-lethal stunning weapons more effective than the fists of another brick. O_o

 

And that's not just the 'metagaming' aspect of 'can't do enough body' - that's the 'any brick worth his salt is bulletproof and everybody knows it.' So if you're pulling a gun out to try and shoot one, you're probably *not* trying to kill them, because barring large amounts of luck, armor piercing bullets, and a nice high FW roll, it's going to bounce and *everybody* knows it.

 

So that varies from one to the next.

 

As for Nightwind... I think that, if he doesn't fit in on the team, it's less because of his weapon choice and willingness to kill than it is because of his general attitude and take on things. Nightwind's weakness on the Champions isn't that he's the team's "y'know, bodies aren't *always* a bad thing" member, it's that he's the brooding loner who's only really with the team because he knows that he needs the backup. He's a modern Batman on a team that's about one step removed from the classic Justice League... and *that* is what makes me wonder if he's a proper fit for the team.

 

Of course, I also preferred Jaguar, so I'm maybe a *little* biased.

[MitchellS]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

But the point' date=' I guess is that maybe that NPC's reaction might be different. He or she now knows that someone attempted to end his life. So let the consequences begin.[/quote']

I think you're putting too much emphasis on the special effects of the killing attack rather than the mechanic itself. If I'm one of the 88% of the resistant foes I don't care if I'm getting shot with Nightwind's desert eagle, stabbed with Nighthawk's throwing knives, or blasted by Sapphire. None of them will physically injure me unless a fluke roll occurs [and that can occur with normal damage too].

 

I'd guess that 90% of the time when a player chooses to use a killing attack against another person he's doing it for the mechanical reason of "stun lotto." There's no intent to do body or kill [because even with killing attacks it's very hard to kill superpowered people]. The player's trying to KO them quicker. If you remove stun lotto from the game and use the fixed 3 stun per you'd see people using their 12d6 eb over their 4d6 rka most of the time.

 

No matter how much you want to discuss the intent you can't do that without removing the mechanics of the game. In M&M there's a clear difference between trying to kill and just doing damage. There's no such difference in Champs, IMO.

[MitchellS]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

Point, but it also doesn't contain the usual elements for non-killer weapon users, like Targetting Skill Levels. And technically, "unless they use them first" includes the vast majority of thug and mook opposition, who are also the ones most likely to end up dead if shot.

 

I don't think your reading is impossible, or even unlikely. I just wish they were a little more specific.

I don't believe Nightwind considered thugs to be a threat to him. He can walk through thugs without ever needing to pull his guns. There's no challenge for him there. Mechassassin would be a gun-drawing reason [but again, the guns will be unable to harm him due to rPD].

[MitchellS]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

As for Nightwind... I think that' date=' if he doesn't fit in on the team, it's less because of his weapon choice and willingness to kill than it is because of his general attitude and take on things. Nightwind's weakness on the Champions isn't that he's the team's "y'know, bodies aren't *always* a bad thing" member, it's that he's the brooding loner who's only really with the team because he knows that he needs the backup. He's a modern Batman on a team that's about one step removed from the classic Justice League... and *that* is what makes me wonder if he's a proper fit for the team.[/quote']

There's nothing in Nightwind's writeup to suggest he's a brooding loner. I'd say the opposite, in fact. His only real weakness is that he's an adrenaline junkie who can't deal with insults. Nightwind reminds me of Seeker. I can easily envision him on the cover of a Champions comic singlehandedly taking on Dr. Destroyer simply because he was insulted.

[jkwleisemann]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

*blinks*

 

I think I'm remembering the wrong writeup then. I seem to remember that he was the one who was disfigured and started taking his frustrations out on thugs and low-grade supervillains? Computer company, horribly scarred face, and the team's official attitude problem?

[MitchellS]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

*blinks*

 

I think I'm remembering the wrong writeup then. I seem to remember that he was the one who was disfigured and started taking his frustrations out on thugs and low-grade supervillains? Computer company, horribly scarred face, and the team's official attitude problem?

That's Nighthawk. He's the one who was replaced by Nightwind. Nightwind's the guy who studied at the Yengtao Temple. He has the multipower of different martial arts maneuvers: Hiragoyoshi’s Waltzing Butterfly, the Sublime Whirlwind Of Cheng-Hwan, etc.

[Darren Watts]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

Yeah, that was kind of the point for me. While Nighthawk was important as a sample "beginning character" writeup of a popular superheroic archetype, once you advanced the team along it became clear that he didn't really fit in with the group. So I decided to give him a new proactive setting that I thought was a bit fresher while also nodding to the old Batman/Outsiders-type storyline. Without him, the Champs still did need a Martial Artist/street hero guy, and Nightwind was already in Millennium City, so he got the nod. dw

[Enforcer84]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

Yeah, Nightwind is a better fit IMO, he reminds me more of a precrisis Batman, or Nightwing for today. I can see the "he packs heat" arguments to an extent, but this guy is far more martial artist than anything else. The text even states as much. He's having trouble filling in Nighthawk's shoes detective-wise. In combat, I'd have to say he's an upgrade.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

Just cause be packs heat does not mean he has to carry lethal ammunition.

 

 

LOL

 

 

QM

[freakboy6117]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

swap his gun for pulson blaster pistols if necessary. The advantage of doing that is you can add more powers with vari-blaster type guns rapid fire armour piercing entangle etc

[ghost-angel]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

Just cause be packs heat does not mean he has to carry lethal ammunition.

 

 

LOL

 

 

QM

 

This is fact.

 

My current Supermage carries a .38 Pistol. Sure, it's a gun, but the bullets are magic and nonlethal. Against normals, the threat it there - which is the intent. If a demonstration is in order, no worres - it'll hurt but no kill.

[MitchellS]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

Yeah' date=' Nightwind is a better fit IMO, he reminds me more of a precrisis Batman, or Nightwing for today.[/quote']

I always assumed he was an Ironfist homage myself.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Nightwind: A Proper Fit for the Champions?

 

Given his background, I think that's a reasonable assumption. So we just have to wait for Ironclad to start exclaiming, "Christmas!"