Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'm not QM, but... The Straight Dope has a page on how long the power is expected to last after the zombie apocalypse. Probably works for other kinds of apocalypsi...apocalypseses...whatever.

 

Steve, you gotta make sure we get the plural of apocalypse in that book.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Crap, I remember that link Bill was talking about, but I can't find it.

 

It had an estimate for how long asphalt roads would last and how long it would take buildings built of various materials to deteriorate enough to lose their weatherproofing, and how long it would take them to collapse. If I'm not mistaken, it also had info about natural reforestation, ozone rebalancing, all that kind of stuff.

 

It was an awesome link too. I can't believe I didn't save it as a PDF or something.

[Labrat]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

There was an interesting and poignant scene in the novel Alas Babylon:

 

The protagonist comes across a corpse outside a jewelry store. The man had obviously been looting the place; he's loaded down with gold. The protagonist stops to examine the corpse to see how he died, figures it out fairly quickly, and gets away fast.

 

Metals, especially dense metals like gold, have absorbed massive quantities of radiation that was released when the nuclear weapons went off; and are likely to remain dangerously radioactive for a long time. From being precious and sought after, gold and silver have become dangerous substances that should be avoided at all costs.

 

If you're running a realistic post nuclear war game, gold isn't one of the treasures; it's one of the deadliest traps.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

What need have I of gold, more than the palindromedary here?

And all the silver I treasure, is moonlight bright and clear.

 

I absolutely love that. Now that, Alanis, is ironic.

[Doug Limmer]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Crap' date=' I remember that link Bill was talking about, but I can't find it.[/quote']I think I might have found it. Or, something like it, anyway.

 

Here's the (London?) Times article link:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article668846.ece

 

And here's a link to a graphic that doesn't seem to be linkable from the article any more (or, at least, any easy way I could find):

http://images.thetimes.co.uk/TGD/picture/0,,351113,00.jpg

 

This may not be the article/picture people are thinking of, but it might be useful anyway.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

That's it.

 

The info in this graphic is worth putting into a PA genre book, Steve. Most definitely.

 

Maybe we fanboys should look up other info about shelf lives and stuff. Like Twinkies, bullets, and gasoline. Then Steve can't say he doesn't have time to research it.

 

Edit: according to Snopes, Twinkies have a shelf life of 25 days. Even given a Post-Apoc'er's willingness to eat stale or semi-rancid food, they won't be lasting long. Still worth mentioning in a sidebar though....

 

Gasoline: 10 years - http://www.alpharubicon.com/altenergy/gaslifepal.htm

As little as a month - http://theepicenter.com/tow021799.html

 

Ammo: 20-30 years or more - http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/ammo_life.html

"virtually forever" - http://ak-47.net/ammo/corrosive1.html

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Crap, I remember that link Bill was talking about, but I can't find it.

 

It had an estimate for how long asphalt roads would last and how long it would take buildings built of various materials to deteriorate enough to lose their weatherproofing, and how long it would take them to collapse. If I'm not mistaken, it also had info about natural reforestation, ozone rebalancing, all that kind of stuff.

 

It was an awesome link too. I can't believe I didn't save it as a PDF or something.

 

I remembered it too; the asphalt roads part was the part I remembered most. I'm glad it's been found.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

That's it.

 

The info in this graphic is worth putting into a PA genre book, Steve. Most definitely.

 

Maybe we fanboys should look up other info about shelf lives and stuff. Like Twinkies, bullets, and gasoline. Then Steve can't say he doesn't have time to research it.

 

Edit: according to Snopes, Twinkies have a shelf life of 25 days. Even given a Post-Apoc'er's willingness to eat stale or semi-rancid food, they won't be lasting long. Still worth mentioning in a sidebar though....

 

Gasoline: 10 years - http://www.alpharubicon.com/altenergy/gaslifepal.htm

As little as a month - http://theepicenter.com/tow021799.html

 

Ammo: 20-30 years or more - http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/ammo_life.html

"virtually forever" - http://ak-47.net/ammo/corrosive1.html

 

That is the low end for ammo unless it is unprotected. WW2 vintage ammo (60+ years old) is still widely available and reliable. WW2 ammo was made with resource rationing as a consideration, modern stuff made without these shortages should hold up even better.

 

Something else to consider is restoring old stuff, petrolium products may become contaminated over the years to the point of not being useful for their original purpose but I bet it could be re-refined to its former self.

 

Along with that a little info on the tech required for some critical items, ammunition manufacturing, electricity production, petrolium refining, metal forging etc. Many of these technologies have been available since the 1800's so it shouldn't be that hard to at least get primative versions up and running. The importance of them would definately make their return a high priority.

 

Also ways older tech might return and take the place of high tech. The Soviets continued to develop transistor technology long after the west moved onto circuit boards.They managed to make their transistor tech compete pretty well with more "modern" methods.

 

I can just picture the end of the road warrior with diesel fueled steam engine war chariots instead of cars.

 

 

Reading your earlier post I should say, I don't expect detailed instructions on how various technologies work, just how much infrastructure is required to run them, stand alone vs lots of supporting tech. Even a time line of when various technologies became practical would be nice for comparison, when did electrical generation become viable as a power source, first practical steam engines, when did metal cartridge ammunition replace cap and ball, steel replace iron, iron replace bronze etc. Just something to help a GM create a "realistic" society rebuilding itself. Some interesting tangents on tech would be nice, Tesla's broadcast electricity or the Soviet use of transistors I mention above. Real world places where the current tech could have taken another turn under different circumstances.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

That is the low end for ammo unless it is unprotected. WW2 vintage ammo (60+ years old) is still widely available and reliable. WW2 ammo was made with resource rationing as a consideration, modern stuff made without these shortages should hold up even better.

 

Something else to consider is restoring old stuff, petrolium products may become contaminated over the years to the point of not being useful for their original purpose but I bet it could be re-refined to its former self.

 

Along with that a little info on the tech required for some critical items, ammunition manufacturing, electricity production, petrolium refining, metal forging etc. Many of these technologies have been available since the 1800's so it shouldn't be that hard to at least get primative versions up and running. The importance of them would definately make their return a high priority.

 

Also ways older tech might return and take the place of high tech. The Soviets continued to develop transistor technology long after the west moved onto circuit boards.They managed to make their transistor tech compete pretty well with more "modern" methods.

 

I can just picture the end of the road warrior with diesel fueled steam engine war chariots instead of cars.

 

 

Reading your earlier post I should say, I don't expect detailed instructions on how various technologies work, just how much infrastructure is required to run them, stand alone vs lots of supporting tech. Even a time line of when various technologies became practical would be nice for comparison, when did electrical generation become viable as a power source, first practical steam engines, when did metal cartridge ammunition replace cap and ball, steel replace iron, iron replace bronze etc. Just something to help a GM create a "realistic" society rebuilding itself. Some interesting tangents on tech would be nice, Tesla's broadcast electricity or the Soviet use of transistors I mention above. Real world places where the current tech could have taken another turn under different circumstances.

Some good points here.

My old Morrow Project games usually defaulted to a fairly stable 19th century tech level with a few twists created by pockets of surviving knowledge. Black power muzzleloaders were cheap and common, mechanical action guns were often handmade by gunsmiths or their journeymen, along with the occasional heavy machine gun or light cannon. Generators running on locally produced bio-diesel, wind farms or water wheels (p'rhaps feeding large numbers of properlly wired deep cycle marine batteries) to provide some community power, mainly for shop tools, cold storage, defenses and some lights. Night soil collectors harvesting potassium nitrate for ammunition and explosives (as well as fertilizer).

 

Hmmm.... I wonder if you can make ANFO explosives from biodiesel?

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Someone mentioned PA economies earlier' date=' but I can't recall if any mention was made about currency in particular. It might be fun to have a brief mention of different forms of currency that could come about in a PA world. For example, Fallout used bottle caps, I believe. [/quote']

 

For the annual "C'ptn MacAoidh's Travelling Saloon and Trading Post" themed costume party I used to throw the currency was "bits", inspired by the scene in "The Blood of Heroes" where the villagers are paying their way into a post game party with little useful hunks of metal... bolts, washers, cartridge casings and the like. Anything that could come in handy that's also a pain in the butt to make by hand. I'm reminded of the stories of ancient soldiers being paid in nails.

I used to have a lot of fun with those damn parties.

People had to barter their way in, and were given bits like tokens to use inside. Anything bartered went to the trade table, the bar, or were gaffled by the staff (I encouraged a small amount of graft and charity both... one of my guys who just lost his job got hisself a case of MRE's one year). The second year I added the wired off go-go cages and shadowbox, and promoted one of my guards to slave wrangler, as we discovered hordes of women (clad mainly in duct tape) who always wanted in for free... so we opened the option for indentured servitude:eg:

[Steve Long]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I tried 'urban neglect' 'building deterioration neglect' and 'urban deterioration' but only got what appeared to be very boring references that I wouldn't want to wish on anyone.

 

Yeah, that's generally been my experience with similar searches.

[Steve Long]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'm going to have to slow down my Machiavellian plans to start a nuclear war and carve myself a kingdom from the ruins of the Eastern seaboard. Apparently the guidebook I was hoping for is not in the works.

 

If you think I'm giving away any of my secrets for world conquest in this book, you are definitely mistaken.

[Steve Long]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Steve, you gotta make sure we get the plural of apocalypse in that book.

 

"Disasters."

 

Actually, the one solid piece of research I have on the "how long things last" is that very same Straight Dope column -- I clipped it from a newspaper years ago and have saved it ever since, awaiting this day.

[Steve Long]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Yup, that scene in Alas Babylon is great. Also the one where they realize they desperately need salt and have to find a way to get it.

[Steve Long]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Woot! Glad to see those links have been re-located. Definitely some useful information there. Fortunately, we can always ignore reality if we prefer and have buildings last however long we want them to. Given that the pyramids are several thousand years old, I wonder if some of that article's predictions are a little pessimistic.

 

Even a time line of when various technologies became practical would be nice for comparison, when did electrical generation become viable as a power source, first practical steam engines, when did metal cartridge ammunition replace cap and ball, steel replace iron, iron replace bronze etc. Just something to help a GM create a "realistic" society rebuilding itself. Some interesting tangents on tech would be nice, Tesla's broadcast electricity or the Soviet use of transistors I mention above. Real world places where the current tech could have taken another turn under different circumstances.

 

Even this I see as being largely beyond the scope of PAH. This is the sort of information I plan to include in The Ultimate Gadgeteer, at least insofar as it looks at how technologies evolve and what was available when.

[Steve Long]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Then Steve can't say he doesn't have time to research it.

 

Anything y'all happen to uncover definitely saves me time... assuming, of course, I don't have to spend time trying to verify it. Research on the web is always a tricky propostion. Fortunately, gaming supplements aren't held to the same rigorous standard as scientific publications.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Woot! Glad to see those links have been re-located. Definitely some useful information there. Fortunately' date=' we can always ignore reality if we prefer and have buildings last however long we want them to. [/quote']

 

I think this just highlights the need (as always) to list options that are seen in genre. In realistic PAH, we probably want to have a realistic rate of decay, but some games demand more realism than others.

 

Given that the pyramids are several thousand years old' date=' I wonder if some of that article's predictions are a little pessimistic.[/quote']

 

They just don't build 'em like they used to!

 

Of course, the problem with these threads is that I agree all this deterioration time, for example, would be useful. Unlike Steve, however, I don't have to research all the things that could be useful, write them up in a cohesive format, and come up with a book on a time schedule which will have a number of pages small enough to permit it to be published. I'm sure a book with everything that could conceivably be useful in a PAH setting would be thousands of pages long, which would be a great academic encyclopedia, but not a marketable RPG supplement.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I think I might have found it. Or, something like it, anyway.

 

Here's the (London?) Times article link:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article668846.ece

 

And here's a link to a graphic that doesn't seem to be linkable from the article any more (or, at least, any easy way I could find):

http://images.thetimes.co.uk/TGD/picture/0,,351113,00.jpg

 

Yup, that's the one! Just out of curiousity, what did you search on to find it?

[zornwil]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Woot! Glad to see those links have been re-located. Definitely some useful information there. Fortunately, we can always ignore reality if we prefer and have buildings last however long we want them to. Given that the pyramids are several thousand years old, I wonder if some of that article's predictions are a little pessimistic.

 

 

 

Even this I see as being largely beyond the scope of PAH. This is the sort of information I plan to include in The Ultimate Gadgeteer, at least insofar as it looks at how technologies evolve and what was available when.

I don't think so, just given that the pyramids were built to last with little care, and so many buildings today require ongoing maintenance, plus are built on seacoasts where storms and earthquakes occur more than for Egypt. But I do agree there would be notable exceptions, and I think the article even basically mentions that as it mentions the pyramids as well as an example of how some thigns stay. I think a lot will have to do with form factor and support (well, duh....).

 

As an aside, I wonder what the practical effect of space junk falling will be in an post-apoc scenario, since that stuff all won't be maintained?

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Steve' date=' you gotta make sure we get the plural of apocalypse in that book. [/quote']According to OpenDictionary, it's "apocalypses."

 

("The Plural of Apocalypse" also comes up in my searches as the title of an apparrently noteworthy fanfic story on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," but that has nothing to do with this discussion.)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Looking at the time line... I'm not sure it's all that accurate, or at least it's erring on the side of quickness.

 

Blacktop, outside the stresses of constant vehicle traffic, doesn't break down so easy. Neither does stone. Brick might, don't know much about concrete.

 

I don't think our buildings and roads would go away after only 1000 years.

 

As Steve said - look at the pyramids. Maybe 1,000-10,000 years depending on climate and other outside factors.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

According to OpenDictionary, it's "apocalypses."

 

("The Plural of Apocalypse" also comes up in my searches as the title of an apparrently noteworthy fanfic story on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," but that has nothing to do with this discussion.)

 

My post was a ref to a Buffy episode, so it probably does have at least a little bit to do with it.

[Scott Baker]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Looking at the time line... I'm not sure it's all that accurate, or at least it's erring on the side of quickness.

 

Blacktop, outside the stresses of constant vehicle traffic, doesn't break down so easy. Neither does stone. Brick might, don't know much about concrete.

 

I don't think our buildings and roads would go away after only 1000 years.

 

As Steve said - look at the pyramids. Maybe 1,000-10,000 years depending on climate and other outside factors.

 

There's definitely room for a range. Don't forget the amazing power of plants though. Roads may not wear out without traffic, but give the plants free run to grow when and where they want, and I'm sure you'll see a lot of deterioration. Modified by the rest of then environment this still gives you a lot of leeway in your breakdown timeline.

 

Scott Baker

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

My post was a ref to a Buffy episode' date=' so it probably does have at least a little bit to do with it. [/quote']It would be an interesting twist, though, to have an apocalypse happen just as the world is truly recovering from the last one....

 

Like I say, the bits of extreme weirdness and insanity, like Wilson's ant-based society or my pig-riding squirrel-people, are probably most at home in post-apocalypse.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

For the annual "C'ptn MacAoidh's Travelling Saloon and Trading Post" themed costume party I used to throw the currency was "bits", inspired by the scene in "The Blood of Heroes" where the villagers are paying their way into a post game party with little useful hunks of metal... bolts, washers, cartridge casings and the like. Anything that could come in handy that's also a pain in the butt to make by hand. I'm reminded of the stories of ancient soldiers being paid in nails.

I used to have a lot of fun with those damn parties.

People had to barter their way in, and were given bits like tokens to use inside. Anything bartered went to the trade table, the bar, or were gaffled by the staff (I encouraged a small amount of graft and charity both... one of my guys who just lost his job got hisself a case of MRE's one year). The second year I added the wired off go-go cages and shadowbox, and promoted one of my guards to slave wrangler, as we discovered hordes of women (clad mainly in duct tape) who always wanted in for free... so we opened the option for indentured servitude:eg:

 

 

You are an interesting person, you sure you don't want to move to Mariposa, no smog on cars here you know.

 

Actually Mariposa might never be the same if you moved in, just a little too much culture shock for the locals.

 

Your talk of Barter reminds me of the movie scene in A boy and his dog, Don Johnson buys his way into the theatre with a can of Beets he claims are Peaches "what can't you read it says Peaches" (the label clearly says BEETS). I've always had this image of the poor guy expecting to taste peaches getting a nice big bite of beets.

[Lucius]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Two quick points:

 

Mr. Long, while I may be misunderstanding your use of the terms "high" and "low" postapocolypse, I am not so sure that "high" postapocalypse is restricted to role playing games. For example, there is The Jerusalem Man by, if I recall correctly, David Gemmel (?) and I seem to recall that The Revelation of St. John had plenty of high weirdness - although I am not sure it's a viable background for a game.

 

 

Somewhere online (and maybe I'll get motivated and try to find it again) I have found some fascinating material on the area around Chernobyl - a region now called "Land of Wolves" because when it was evacuated, wolves, among other things, moved back in. The site I saw had a lot of photographs and some text describing the impressions of a person who dared venture into that forbidden territory.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary nods an acknowledgment to Labrat