Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[TonyTempest]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

If one wanted to continue to play in Planet of the Apes, however, one would need rules for mutated/intelligent animals. This is NOT a plea for such a setting in the book, only a "what I would like to see" and that is: rules for creating intelligent mutated animals...

 

this would be of use in both the high-rad apocalypse, and the shattered moon apocalypse if a GM wanted to allow them.

 

The lack of mutated/intelligent animals in the Sword and Sorcery version of Gamma World was a big disappointment to a great deal of GW fans.

 

david

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

If you look at the genre as a whole' date=' PotA really bears no relationship to it at all. It doesn't really have/follow any of the standard PA tropes, themes, elements, or story structures. It isn't until literally the very end of the movie that you even realize it's a PA setting. That's the basis of my assertion that it's really only tangentially PA.[/quote']The original movie is thus, and the original book isn't far off (it looks at first like a civilized planet of apes, and it isn't Earth, but as the story unfolds we learn that its story was much like the Earth of the movie). However, the overall movie series and the TV series both deserve some mention as a post-apoc setting -- and a fairly well-developed one, at least in the latter case, IMHO.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

The original movie is thus' date=' and the original book isn't far off (it looks at first like a civilized planet of apes, and it [i']isn't[/i] Earth, but as the story unfolds we learn that its story was much like the Earth of the movie). However, the overall movie series and the TV series both deserve some mention as a post-apoc setting -- and a fairly well-developed one, at least in the latter case, IMHO.

 

I was just about to post this very statement. In particular, Beneath the, Conquest of and Battle for are firmly supportive of the genre. The TV series very much so.

 

Keith "Looking at the larger pictures" Curtis

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Publish already!

 

I've been looking at my copies of Redline and Death Valley Free Prison, and they're like a basket of crackers on the table when you're really hungry and waiting for the steak to come.

[Spidey88]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Lesse here...

 

Some of the best times I've had with roleplaying games have been in PA settings (and that's why there will always be a warm place in my heart for Road Hogs and Gamma World), so I've got a lot of desire to see PA Hero done well - that being said, I'm confident it's in good hands.

 

Some things I'd love to see:

 

1) concrete details on surviving the apocalypse, both pre and post. Quick blurbs about what precautions would need to be taken to survive a nuclear war (or one based on biological weapons, robots running amok, etc.), and how the survivors three generations later would get by from day to day. Some of this would no doubt be specific to the mini-setting involved (probably less need for NBC suits during or after the rapture, as opposed to a post-nuke world), but there'd be a lot of similar ground between them. For example - how long could one expect canned food to stay edible? How hard would it be to find? Could you ever expect to reload that ancient shotgun without making ammo from scratch, and how would you get started doing so? What supplies, skills, and labour would be needed to smelt metal? What crops would be the best bet to grow for long-term survival? How would roads hold up without regular maintenance, and could you expect any conventional car to be useful 100 years after the big kaboom?

 

2) Scavenging is a big part of any PA game I've been a part of, so having some detailed info on where to find item X, or some sort of random tables that could give you what schwack of thingamabobs could be found in a random medicenter, and what other sorts of things could be found in an average police staiton, would be super nifty. Random scavenging tables take up a lot of space, but having really detailed ones makes a huge difference, IMHO, when the players feel like exploring random buildings downtown. Having similar things for building types and condition would rock too. (The tables I made for our Gamma World campaign have seen near-constant use.) Whether or not random tables are involved or not, scavenging should have a lot of attention devoted to it (assuming there's anything left of the old society, the PC's will want to dig up goodies)!

 

 

I'll probably have more thoughts later, but right now I need sleep.

 

(sign me up for wacky mutants all over the place, by the way...)

[Labrat]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I think there should be a distinction between what constitutes a 'Post-Apocalypse' game and a game with a 'Post-Apocalypse Backdrop'.

 

I think that 'The Matrix' and 'Judge Dread' (in the MegaCities at least) fall into the latter. I wouldn't want to see good page space committed to this backdrop outside of a blurb or two. The two cited examples could easily be put into Cyberpunk/Dark Champions as is. Where the action takes place outside of the Matrix or the MegaCities could easily be adapted to the upcoming PAH rules.

 

I would think that the concensus for the genre would be a world where chaos rules the day, danger lurks everywhere (PC and NPC alike), the environment is the enemy (radiation, wild weather, crumbling cities), resources are limited, the strongest survive only as long as the smartest don't get the drop on them and the stand-by trope of 'everything new is old again' regarding technology. When the Apocalyptic Event is just the backdrop where only a fraction of the action occurs (even Zion proper could be considered DH/Cyberpunk) then it's not the true Post-Apocalyptic genre IMO. Of course I must stress that IMO part. At first blush I would certainly consider both Judge Dredd and the Matrix as Post-Apocalyptic genre, even other literature I read complies with this alignment, but for the book at hand we are talking about page space and personally I would like to see a differentiation with only a quick mention of what games only use PA as a plot device and not as a gaming environment.

[Steve Long]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

1) concrete details on surviving the apocalypse, both pre and post. Quick blurbs about what precautions would need to be taken to survive a nuclear war (or one based on biological weapons, robots running amok, etc.), and how the survivors three generations later would get by from day to day. Some of this would no doubt be specific to the mini-setting involved (probably less need for NBC suits during or after the rapture, as opposed to a post-nuke world), but there'd be a lot of similar ground between them. For example - how long could one expect canned food to stay edible? How hard would it be to find? Could you ever expect to reload that ancient shotgun without making ammo from scratch, and how would you get started doing so? What supplies, skills, and labour would be needed to smelt metal? What crops would be the best bet to grow for long-term survival? How would roads hold up without regular maintenance, and could you expect any conventional car to be useful 100 years after the big kaboom?

 

I wanted to touch on a couple of points here, to clarify a few things. Let me make it clear to begin with that I'm not pickin' on Spidey88 -- he just provided a good, thoughtful summary of some of these issues that I can address. In fact, I'll award him 1 XP for "volunteering."

 

A lot of what this post, and I think some other posts in this thread, is asking for is simply beyond the scope of PAH. Specifically...

 

--I'm not writing a "how to survive nuclear war" (or other holocaust of your choice ) guide. There are some expanded rules for the Survival Skill (most of which you've seen in TUS, some of which are new for the PA genre), and some brief discussions of related issues, but that's it. Anything more than that is either (a) unnecessary in light of the dramatic conventions of the genre and the common sense needs of the average gamer, and/or ( too setting-specific to cover generally.

 

--I'm not writing a book on how to make ammunition, smelt metal, what crops work best in what situations, or anything like that. That's way, way, way beyond the scope and purpose of the book and the needs of the average gamer. Make a Weaponsmith (or whatever) roll and go from there.

 

--as I've stated here and there elsewhere in the thread, since we've been fortunate enough not to have suffered through an apocalypse, I have no idea[/] how long canned foods, roads, Twinkies, buildings, cars, twenty-sided dice, or any other such thing would remain usable. Even assuming that information is out there somewhere, it's likely buried in engineering textbooks and not worth the time to look up. At best I can hazard guesses, and if that seems helpful, I'll give it a shot.

 

 

I think in most cases the GM simply resolves this stuff dramatically in some way, and I'll certainly discuss that, but more than that you're not likely to get.

[Steve Long]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I think there should be a distinction between what constitutes a 'Post-Apocalypse' game and a game with a 'Post-Apocalypse Backdrop'.

 

In fact, I already have a sidebar written on more or less this same subject.

[Labrat]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

At best I can hazard guesses, and if that seems helpful, I'll give it a shot.

 

 

I think in most cases the GM simply resolves this stuff dramatically in some way, and I'll certainly discuss that, but more than that you're not likely to get.

 

I think that we'd all appreciate you giving this a shot. Certainly you have a pile of books around you that will get you into the 'loosely informed' mode and us GMs would certainly appreciate any help we can get on the matter. Certainly a table or two based on relative consumable logevity would go a long way in order to play the genre up to its fullest potential. It really is a big part of the genre and worthy of mention. Didn't we all gasp when Mad Max's shotgun shell fizzled out at the dramatic apex of 'Road Warrior'???

 

So thanks for considering adding these things!

[zornwil]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I wanted to touch on a couple of points here, to clarify a few things. Let me make it clear to begin with that I'm not pickin' on Spidey88 -- he just provided a good, thoughtful summary of some of these issues that I can address. In fact, I'll award him 1 XP for "volunteering."

 

A lot of what this post, and I think some other posts in this thread, is asking for is simply beyond the scope of PAH. Specifically...

 

--I'm not writing a "how to survive nuclear war" (or other holocaust of your choice ) guide. There are some expanded rules for the Survival Skill (most of which you've seen in TUS, some of which are new for the PA genre), and some brief discussions of related issues, but that's it. Anything more than that is either (a) unnecessary in light of the dramatic conventions of the genre and the common sense needs of the average gamer, and/or ( too setting-specific to cover generally.

 

--I'm not writing a book on how to make ammunition, smelt metal, what crops work best in what situations, or anything like that. That's way, way, way beyond the scope and purpose of the book and the needs of the average gamer. Make a Weaponsmith (or whatever) roll and go from there.

 

--as I've stated here and there elsewhere in the thread, since we've been fortunate enough not to have suffered through an apocalypse, I have no idea[/] how long canned foods, roads, Twinkies, buildings, cars, twenty-sided dice, or any other such thing would remain usable. Even assuming that information is out there somewhere, it's likely buried in engineering textbooks and not worth the time to look up. At best I can hazard guesses, and if that seems helpful, I'll give it a shot.

 

 

I think in most cases the GM simply resolves this stuff dramatically in some way, and I'll certainly discuss that, but more than that you're not likely to get.

I think the speculative literature is good enough for PA "technology," some of it is fairly credible and hits the high points without specifically-rubber (but untested) science.

 

I would like to clarify at least my own expectation regarding this stuff, which I have no clue if it reflects on Spidey's or others. I am not looking for hard data on how long cans last or details of recreating ammuntion. What I would be more interested in is just basic info such as "assuming that people can only reconstruct technology based on examples being left over and assuming no actual design information, our best guesses are it would be 10-50 years for bullets and guns to be manufactured, 25-100 years for the likes of tanks, and 100-500 years before nuclear energy is recreated." For existing technology, some pointers on what kinds of things would work on batteries or on fuel packs versus what kinds of tech just would not work at all would be useful. Stuff that would keep it reasonably realistic for those groups that care about that, which I think is something other source books have (generally, such as Dark Champions and Pulp Hero) done a good job at for groups concerned with "reailsm." I stress realism as being just in the context of "good enough for a cinematic game so that suspension of disbelief is reasonable." Of course, no one ever agrees on that line exactly; I'm thinking just enough info so that it's not absurd or fantastic against the expectations of a reasonably-informed layman. The kind of thing that passes muster for "The Day After" type films, even though some items are debatable, it passes muster among all but hard science quarters.

 

Anyway, Steve, if you would, would you define what fits into the PA genre from your perspective in terms of theme? I mean in terms of whether it's basically the same as Labrat's definition ("a world where chaos rules the day, danger lurks everywhere (PC and NPC alike), the environment is the enemy (radiation, wild weather, crumbling cities), resources are limited, the strongest survive only as long as the smartest don't get the drop on them and the stand-by trope of 'everything new is old again' regarding technology") or whether you see it as something somewhat or substantially different?

[Labrat]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Anyway' date=' Steve, if you would, would you define what fits into the PA genre from your perspective in terms of theme? I mean in terms of whether it's basically the same as Labrat's definition ("a world where chaos rules the day, danger lurks everywhere (PC and NPC alike), the environment is the enemy (radiation, wild weather, crumbling cities), resources are limited, the strongest survive only as long as the smartest don't get the drop on them and the stand-by trope of 'everything new is old again' regarding technology") or whether you see it as something somewhat or substantially different?[/quote']

 

Or better yet, what constitutes a campaign 'soon after the Apocalypse' (Mad Max, Lucifer's Hammer) vs. 'generation(s) after the Apocalypse' (The Earth Abides, Battle Circle). And how to emphasize things. Zornwil is right, I'm biased towards the former and that's why my comments are of much interest to me... but that probably isn't universal.

[Steve Long]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Anyway, Steve, if you would, would you define what fits into the PA genre from your perspective in terms of theme? I mean in terms of whether it's basically the same as Labrat's definition ("a world where chaos rules the day, danger lurks everywhere (PC and NPC alike), the environment is the enemy (radiation, wild weather, crumbling cities), resources are limited, the strongest survive only as long as the smartest don't get the drop on them and the stand-by trope of 'everything new is old again' regarding technology") or whether you see it as something somewhat or substantially different?

 

Well, in a lot of ways, what I think isn't really all that relevant; any GM can shoehorn whatever he likes into the genre. I think a full answer to this question generally would have to wait on the book itself, but I will (a) hit a few high points, and ( quickly list some of what I think the best PA literature and films are from a gaming perspective.

 

I think the key elements of the genre tend to be:

 

--an apocalypse occurs/occurred at some point and is an important element of the story/setting. On some level it affects the world, how the characters think about things, and the resources available to the characters. The apocalypse isn't just window dressing or story background; it matters.

 

--some or all of the story's action takes place after the apocalypse (hence *post*-apocalyptic)

 

--the environment (starvation, plague zones, irradiated zones, etc., etc., depending on setting and story) is a more important element than it tends to be in most genres/stories

 

--leftover/salvaged tech, ruins, and a scarcity of resources tend to play into the story on some level

 

--in many (but by no means all) PA stories, the "quest to reach a place of safety" is a major plot (perhas the only plot, really)

 

 

I don't necessarily agree that PA settings are "chaotic." Many are, but some are not; one of the best and most gameable, that of the Pelbar Cycle novels, isn't any more chaotic than a typical Fantasy setting, I'd say.

 

Now, on to a list of PA books and films that I think are particularly good for gaming the genre. Note that this leaves off a lot of "classics" of the genre that don't necessarily have much to offer from a gaming perspective IMO. Also, the list is off the top of my head, so it's in no particular order.

 

The Pelbar Cycle novels

The Road Warrior

Hiero's Journey

Lucifer's Hammer

Battle Circle

Empire of the East

Eternity Road

Thundarr the Barbarian

 

Intriguingly, almost all of these fall into what I call the "Low PA" subgenre. The "High PA" subgenre, characterized by lots of mutant powers, or sci-fi tech, or magic, or what have you, as we (as gamers) envision it is mostly a product of RPGs like Gamma World.

[zornwil]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Thanks, Steve.

[zornwil]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

By the way, I've always wanted to run a PA campaign where there are no humans, and the characters are all somewhat-evolved ants. Still very low intellect individually, but enough that each character can perform basic things and the group is always more effective in combination.

 

I am NOT expecting this from PA! It's just a side comment. It's likely a game I'd need to develop based on input from a pretty cool tactical insect game I saw a while back and using HERO or some other system as a basis to tack onto (or just something new). But because it's a solid bit of work and because it's not THAT much of a passion to me, don't know when/if I would get around to such a thing.

[Labrat]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I don't necessarily agree that PA settings are "chaotic." Many are' date=' but some are not; one of the best and most gameable, that of the Pelbar Cycle novels, isn't any more chaotic than a typical Fantasy setting, I'd say.[/quote']

 

Allow me to qualify what I mean by 'chaotic'. Of course, as I previously stated, I'm operating under my own biases for how I have run the genre in the past so I'm open to some new light being shed on other avenues of adventure.

 

By 'chaotic' I mean the absence of law and order as we know it. Certainly some organizations will rise up quickly out of the ashes. Mostly you could count on some forceful legion of those who see the Apocalypse as a golden opportunity to strike down any strong competition and oppress the weak. Sure one could envision some kind of 'return to normalcy' occurring... but would this last? How long before raiders came to try to take the homestead? I use 'chaotic' to describe the inevitable struggle for resources when many others will be trying to obtain those same resources. Theft, deceit, backstabbing, embezzling, and murder would surely have it's time before any order was restored and trading based on honesty would resume. A straight-up fair-trade barter would be the exception to the rule in the new lawless world IMO. Of course, too, this 'chaotic' world might be a function of the population that survives. Rural America might do better, but urban America might do worse. Ten survivors might do better but one thousand might do worse.

 

Anyway that's my take on what I mean by 'chaotic'.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

By the way, I've always wanted to run a PA campaign where there are no humans, and the characters are all somewhat-evolved ants. Still very low intellect individually, but enough that each character can perform basic things and the group is always more effective in combination.

 

I am NOT expecting this from PA! It's just a side comment. It's likely a game I'd need to develop based on input from a pretty cool tactical insect game I saw a while back and using HERO or some other system as a basis to tack onto (or just something new). But because it's a solid bit of work and because it's not THAT much of a passion to me, don't know when/if I would get around to such a thing.

This sounds to me like something that could deserve a passing mention in the Introduction....

[zornwil]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

This sounds to me like something that could deserve a passing mention in the Introduction....

Thank you very much, but I don't think that the notion adds anything to a straight PA book, personally, I just couldn't contain myself - as my post count attests to, that quality is both virtue and vice!

[teh bunneh]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I found a website once, a year or two ago, that gave a timeline on how long it would take for our infrastructure to decay if we all suddenly went away and stopped taking care of it. How long it would take for houses to collapse, how long before bridges fell down, how long before our highways were overgrown.

 

But my Google-fu is weak and I can't seem to find that site anymore.

[Steve Long]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

If you can find that site again, Bill, please send me a link. It would be worth taking a look at to see if it's sufficiently well-researched and presented to be a reliable source for that sort of information.

 

In fact, to encourage you to find it, I will award you 2 XP if you succeed.

[Steve]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Someone mentioned PA economies earlier, but I can't recall if any mention was made about currency in particular. It might be fun to have a brief mention of different forms of currency that could come about in a PA world. For example, Fallout used bottle caps, I believe.

[Steve]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I wonder, would the TV series Lost be something of a miniature PA setting?

[Labrat]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I found a website once, a year or two ago, that gave a timeline on how long it would take for our infrastructure to decay if we all suddenly went away and stopped taking care of it. How long it would take for houses to collapse, how long before bridges fell down, how long before our highways were overgrown.

 

But my Google-fu is weak and I can't seem to find that site anymore.

 

This looks like a job for QuestionMan! IM him and see if he can find something. I tried 'urban neglect' 'building deterioration neglect' and 'urban deterioration' but only got what appeared to be very boring references that I wouldn't want to wish on anyone.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I too have been looking for "how long stuff lasts" info. So far, most all I've come up with has been pretty speculative, with few solid references. But I did find this page on the US Dept of Agriculture's website that talks about how long canned foods and such last:

 

“In general, high-acid canned foods such as tomatoes, grapefruit and pineapple can be stored on the shelf 12 to 18 months; low-acid canned foods such as meat, poultry, fish and most vegetables will keep 2 to 5 years — if the can remains in good condition and has been stored in a cool, clean, dry place.”

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

--I'm not writing a "how to survive nuclear war" (or other holocaust of your choice ) guide. There are some expanded rules for the Survival Skill (most of which you've seen in TUS, some of which are new for the PA genre), and some brief discussions of related issues, but that's it. Anything more than that is either (a) unnecessary in light of the dramatic conventions of the genre and the common sense needs of the average gamer, and/or ( too setting-specific to cover generally.

 

--I'm not writing a book on how to make ammunition, smelt metal, what crops work best in what situations, or anything like that. That's way, way, way beyond the scope and purpose of the book and the needs of the average gamer. Make a Weaponsmith (or whatever) roll and go from there.

 

Whoa whoa whoa...time out here!

 

I'm going to have to slow down my Machiavellian plans to start a nuclear war and carve myself a kingdom from the ruins of the Eastern seaboard. Apparently the guidebook I was hoping for is not in the works.

[Lucius]

Re: Post-Apocalyptic Hero -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Someone mentioned PA economies earlier' date=' but I can't recall if any mention was made about currency in particular. It might be fun to have a brief mention of different forms of currency that could come about in a PA world. For example, Fallout used bottle caps, I believe. [/quote']

 

There was an interesting and poignant scene in the novel Alas Babylon:

 

The protagonist comes across a corpse outside a jewelry store. The man had obviously been looting the place; he's loaded down with gold. The protagonist stops to examine the corpse to see how he died, figures it out fairly quickly, and gets away fast.

 

Metals, especially dense metals like gold, have absorbed massive quantities of radiation that was released when the nuclear weapons went off; and are likely to remain dangerously radioactive for a long time. From being precious and sought after, gold and silver have become dangerous substances that should be avoided at all costs.

 

If you're running a realistic post nuclear war game, gold isn't one of the treasures; it's one of the deadliest traps.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

What need have I of gold, more than the palindromedary here?

And all the silver I treasure, is moonlight bright and clear.