Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

[Hugh Neilson]

From another thread, but not directly related.

 

It's pretty common to see a bunch of attacks in a Multipower to pick the most effective one for any given circumstances, and I don't often see any stigma attached to these.. But similar MP's for defensice powers are quite rare, and often viewed negatively.

 

If we're OK with characters commonly having several attack powers in a multipower so they can select the best one for any given situation, why aren't we equally OK with a character having multiple defensive powers, maybe one normal and with higher defenses and one slightly lower with hardened defenses, so he too can select whichever is preferable at any given point in time?

 

As an example, why is it generally OK conceptually to have a Fire Blast that's a normal attack, a Concentrated Fire Blast that's a KA, and a Very Concentrated Fire Blast that's an AP KA, but it's rarely or never OK conceptually to have a Force Screen (+20/+20 Force Field) and a Copncentrated Force Screen (+16/16 Hardened Force Field)?

 

Both are metagaming to some effect, using basically the same conceptual SFX for various different mechanics. But, for some reason, we're generally OK with players choosing between various attacks to get the best one for a specific opponent, but much less open to allowing them to customize their defensive powers on the fly.

 

As a much more direct example, most of us would think nothing of a 2 slot Multipower with a 12d6 EB and an 8d6 AP EB, but would probably balk at the Force Field MP above, which is precisely the same thing from a defensive perspective.

[braincraft]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

I never heard of this problem. It's fine if you want two similar but different powers in a multipower. It almost seems like it was designed for such a thing.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

I think that the few cases where I have seen this occur it has been with GM's who were wary of the added complexity that characters with variable defenses might pose. I can see where it makes setting the power level of the villains a little more complex. I personally like having some variability in my brick character's defenses. Here are a couple of examples:

 

Hyper-Man

Mega-Mistress

 

In both cases I purposely did not buy the maximum or most efficient defensive power(s) for the characters. Hyper-Man has a multipower with a Self-Only 12/12 Force Wall slot and a Costs End Damage Reduction slot but NOT a 30/30 Force Field (which he could easily afford). Mega-Mistress has a 60 Reserve Multipower but the Force Field can only use up to 40 Reserve. Both characters were designed to give their player several choices on how to use them in combat. It would not suprise me at all for some GM's to veto these characters without some modifications to those defensive options (and other abilities).

[Karmakaze]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

I think some of it is the 'no 0-end powers in a framework' rule. That cuts down on the defensive abilities available for the multipower. I think also a lot of players are hesitant to have a situation where they have no defenses.

 

I'm running a character right now with about half her defenses in her multipower. I pulled the minimum amount of defense I'd be willing to be in combat with and called it Armor and kept it out of the framework (same SFX as the MP though, it's not standalone OIF armor). Inside the MP she has a force wall and a force field (so she can extend her defenses to others, or drop defenses to push attacks, as needed). With XP, it would be well within concept to buy a FF with Hardened as an additional slot, although I'm looking at Life Support (usable by others within 1 hex) first.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

I think some of it is the 'no 0-end powers in a framework' rule. That cuts down on the defensive abilities available for the multipower.

 

There's a "no 0 END powers in an EC" rule. There's no similar rule I'm aware of for other frameworks. The general rule is "no special powers in a framework".

[Karmakaze]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

There's a "no 0 END powers in an EC" rule. There's no similar rule I'm aware of for other frameworks. The general rule is "no special powers in a framework".

 

Ah. Right. Didn't make a difference in my example above, though, as the armor was pulled out to simplify my in-game math...

[jtelson]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

Part of what you're seeing may be based on standards for the Superhero genre. You often have energy projectors in the comics use their attacks in a variety of ways, but how common are characters whose defenses are visibly adjustable?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

Part of what you're seeing may be based on standards for the Superhero genre. You often have energy projectors in the comics use their attacks in a variety of ways' date=' but how common are characters whose defenses are visibly adjustable?[/quote']

 

That depends on what your definition of adjustable is. Superman and many other bricks have been shown standing in the way of a moving vehicle and not budging one bit. Later when fighting another brick who swings a similarly sized vehicle as a weapon they might go flying. This is most commonly handled by maneuvers in HERO but powers can be used as well. My namesake character's Force Wall is intended to be used this way since it provides 12" of KB resistance by default.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

We've allowed this for several characters, including a Power Armor user, a Psychic and a Metamorph/Brick. The first character was an NPC's, but the latter two were both PCs (on the same team might I add).

 

I occasionally frustrated the GM, who was prone to forgetting just how powerful my character could be against a target that didn't have multiple different damage types. Many Bricks and Blasters were utterly useless against me... mages, not so much. Of course, it was also nice to be able to pump up the PD before doing a terminal velocity Move Through on rampaging giant monsters...

 

The Psychic was slightly less potent in terms of standard defenses, but had more exotic defenses in his MP slots, several of which came up rarely enough that it wasn't considered a big deal (I'm not sure if he ever used his FF that had Mental Flash Defense).

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

I've done a split FF in a multipower.

 

Each slot being a multislot, and each having double what was "normal" for the FF... so if it was basically a 15/15 FF, each slot has 30. Then depending on my opponent, I'd adjust the size of the FF (a 25/5 one phase, 10/20 the next).

[John Desmarais]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

I've never had any problem with multiple defenses in a Multipower - so long as the powers make some type of conceptual sense relative to the character (how else would you build the Invisible Woman from the Fantasic Four?).

 

Character's with variable defenses don't bother me in the least (as opposed to say, variable Speeds - lord I hates it when people try to muck up my speed chart).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

From another thread, but not directly related.

 

It's pretty common to see a bunch of attacks in a Multipower to pick the most effective one for any given circumstances, and I don't often see any stigma attached to these.. But similar MP's for defensice powers are quite rare, and often viewed negatively.

 

If we're OK with characters commonly having several attack powers in a multipower so they can select the best one for any given situation, why aren't we equally OK with a character having multiple defensive powers, maybe one normal and with higher defenses and one slightly lower with hardened defenses, so he too can select whichever is preferable at any given point in time?

 

As an example, why is it generally OK conceptually to have a Fire Blast that's a normal attack, a Concentrated Fire Blast that's a KA, and a Very Concentrated Fire Blast that's an AP KA, but it's rarely or never OK conceptually to have a Force Screen (+20/+20 Force Field) and a Copncentrated Force Screen (+16/16 Hardened Force Field)?

 

Both are metagaming to some effect, using basically the same conceptual SFX for various different mechanics. But, for some reason, we're generally OK with players choosing between various attacks to get the best one for a specific opponent, but much less open to allowing them to customize their defensive powers on the fly.

 

As a much more direct example, most of us would think nothing of a 2 slot Multipower with a 12d6 EB and an 8d6 AP EB, but would probably balk at the Force Field MP above, which is precisely the same thing from a defensive perspective.

 

I wouldnt balk. I've even designed characters with similar effects. Never realized this was an issue for some people.

 

It all boils down to SFX and "fun" to me -- if the SFX cover the mechanics and its not "unfun", then its all good.

[pinecone]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

I've done a split FF in a multipower.

 

Each slot being a multislot, and each having double what was "normal" for the FF... so if it was basically a 15/15 FF, each slot has 30. Then depending on my opponent, I'd adjust the size of the FF (a 25/5 one phase, 10/20 the next).

 

Yeah,I've seen that more than once...I think any dislike is more style than substance...

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

Character's with variable defenses don't bother me in the least (as opposed to say, variable Speeds - lord I hates it when people try to much up my speed chart).

 

Yeah.

 

we've pretty much houseruled that speed changes only hit at post 12 (aside from Speed Drains).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

SPD changes are easy...just synch them up on the next segment in which both SPD's go.

[JmOz]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

My world's superman type character has a MP of defenses in it are

 

Hardened x1 armor

Hardened x2 armor

FF with carry others (hardened IIRC)

Desolid with "Stays Physical" as a lim (Basicaly the F/X is that if he wantts to he can avoid all damage but he is really not going desolid, things just bounce)

[SableWyvern]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

SPD changes are easy...just synch them up on the next segment in which both SPD's go.

 

As per the official optional rule?

 

That option has struck me as rather harsh. Go from SPD 4 to 5 on segment 6, and you don't act again until segment 12, giving you a total of only 3 phases for the turn -- worse than either of your speeds. Do it in segment 3 and you lose another phase.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

I think he means "you follow the old Speed until a phase that both Speeds act on, and then switch."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

As per the official optional rule?

 

That option has struck me as rather harsh. Go from SPD 4 to 5 on segment 6, and you don't act again until segment 12, giving you a total of only 3 phases for the turn -- worse than either of your speeds. Do it in segment 3 and you lose another phase.

 

I prefer "act next on the later of the next phase of your old SPD and your new SPD, then follow your new SPD". Go from 4 to 5 on Seg 6 and you will move next on the later of 8 or 9, so 9, and will then move on 10 and 12.

 

Change on Seg 3 and move next on phase 5 or 6, so 6, then on 8, 10, 12.

[Adventus]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

In the campaign I am playing in I have the following multipoer:

54 point Force wall MP

5 Forcewall 12PD/8ED lenght 3" height 1"

5 ForceField 23PD/20Ed 1/2 end

5 Running +18"(total 24") Usable as a second mode of movement: Flight Physical Manifestation i.e. Force Filed Slide.

 

This means that if I am using me Force Slide, I have no forcefield to protect me. I have nearly ded 5 times playing this character. Lucky for me one of the other PC's has healing.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

As per the official optional rule?

 

That option has struck me as rather harsh. Go from SPD 4 to 5 on segment 6, and you don't act again until segment 12, giving you a total of only 3 phases for the turn -- worse than either of your speeds. Do it in segment 3 and you lose another phase.

 

Obviously "common sense" applies...Hold 6 till 8, change over and go 8, 10, 12, which granted is 4 total actions and not really any better than a 4 SPD other than taking segments earlier which is marginal.

 

But, one up one down SPD changes halfway into a turn shouldnt be that big of a deal anyway.

[Gary]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

Defensive multipowers or vpps are more of a game problem than attacks when facing 1 foe. Consider the following multipower:

 

15 Multipower

1u +15 PD FF

1u +15 ED FF

1u +7/8 FF

 

The same total cost as +9/+9 FF bought straight.

 

Let's assume the character has 15/15 def base. Against a mix of foes, the character has 22/23. Against Ogre, he has +30/+15. Against Thunderbolt, he has +15/+30. His defense is slightly weaker vs a general foe, but MUCH stronger vs 1 foe.

 

The example becomes worse if the character starts throwing in 1 pt Power, Mental, and Flash Defense slots that give +15 of the relevant defense.

[Vondy]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

Before the characters evolved into VPPs we had a character in my game who had an array of force-fields and force-walls with different options on them in a multi-power.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

Let's assume the character has 15/15 def base. Against a mix of foes, the character has 22/23. Against Ogre, he has +30/+15. Against Thunderbolt, he has +15/+30. His defense is slightly weaker vs a general foe, but MUCH stronger vs 1 foe.

 

The example becomes worse if the character starts throwing in 1 pt Power, Mental, and Flash Defense slots that give +15 of the relevant defense.

 

This is true to some extent. Of course, Thunderbolt could do knockback into a wall, in which case you'll be wishing that Field had some PD, and Ogre (well, a smarter Ogre...) could rip out a high tension power line to attack you with.

 

And we have no issue with multiple attack MP's, which can swap between various defense types they affect with ease.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Attacks OK Defenses No Way?

 

The Mystic World features a couple of defensive spell Multipowers with varying slots. "Deflecting Disk" has a Force Field slot and a Missile Deflection slot. "Wizard Walls" features several Force Wall slots mixing various proportions of Physical, Energy, Mental and Power Defense.