Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

[Colossus]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I’ve yet to buy the book, but plan to do so.

 

From the description, I think Buzzsaw is useful. Buzzsaw or any underpowered villain is often able to catch the PC off guard. 1d6 RKA with an autofire is no real danger to most 350 PC, but it is to normals. If 4 blades hit a single normal (10 Body) they are most likely dead. Even if you play without hit location damage multipliers, as most of us do (I think), 2 1d6 can kill a person. PC tends to forget that they can ignore flying razor blades, but people on the street cannot.

 

A sample scenario. Buzzsaw become an Ultimate Shocker (good annlogy), Doctor Light, or Toad (back in the lacky days) to the PCs, they fight him 2 or 3 times and then he escapes (because they always escape). Here are 4 uses for the character after they know he is a “wimp”

1. PC do not respond (or respond quickly enough) to an emergency call because it’s just Buzzsaw, and a NPC (or DNPC) is killed, wounded, or kidnapped

2. Buzzsaw somehow gets a lucky shot it and actually wounds a PC, and they become a laughing stock.

3. Identity Crisis: Doctor Light clone. Buzzsaw becomes much more dangerous (new equipment) and still the PC will not take him seriously.

4. The League of Buzzsaws. One weak villain with a RKA nothing serious, 10 – a little more serious!

[MitchellS]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

From the description' date=' I think Buzzsaw is useful. Buzzsaw or any underpowered villain is often able to catch the PC off guard. 1d6 RKA with an autofire is no real danger to most 350 PC, but it is to normals. If 4 blades hit a single normal (10 Body) they are most likely dead. Even if you play without hit location damage multipliers, as most of us do (I think), 2 1d6 can kill a person. PC tends to forget that they can ignore flying razor blades, but people on the street cannot.[/quote']

A supervillain whose only threat scale to the players is endangering innocents doesn't need to be a "super"-villain at all. I can use Joe Chill with a .9mm to threaten normals and stymie the players just as easily.

 

My issue isn't with the fact that VVV included a low powered character in Buzzsaw. My issue is that VVV included many exceptionally low powered characters like Buzzsaw: Ambush, Arachne, Avant Guard, Lash, Lynx, Onslaught, and Vesper. And on top of that created more characters with normal or high damage who can't even take a single hit from a 10d6 attack without being stunned such as Blindside, Gauntlet, Grenadier, Mindgame, and Timelapse. And then there's another group of characters who can't resist the average 12d6 attack such as the Dreamwitch, Mantisman, Megavolt, Mirrors, Overbrain, Ricochet, and Technocrat.

 

My issues with the book aren't only about power levels but when 1/3 of the characters in the book are essentially one-hit wonders it does make a statement about the book.

[nexus]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

My issues with the book aren't only about power levels but when 1/3 of the characters in the book are essentially one-hit wonders it does make a statement about the book.

 

And that statement would be that the book isn't very useful for you without revision which is fair but not that its objectively bad. Personally, I'll have use for most of the characters in it for a couple of lower powered games I'm running.

[nexus]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

and hey, the name of the book is Villians, Vandals and Vermin which doesn't imply its going to be a roster of world beaters.

[MitchellS]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

And that statement would be that the book isn't very useful for you without revision which is fair but not that its objectively bad. Personally' date=' I'll have use for most of the characters in it for a couple of lower powered games I'm running.[/quote']

Well the other issues such as poorly constructed characters were covered farther up in the thread so there was no need to bring that up in my reply to Colossus.

 

IMO if Hero Games wanted to build a supervillain book that didn't conform to the standards they set forth in their own Champions Universe then they shouldn't have tied the characters into the CU. They could have produced a generic supervillain book without backdrop. As part of the CU many of these characters are vastly under powered, and that takes away from the continuity of the game universe, IMO.

[nexus]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I see it more as presenting a variety of characters for use across a wide spectrum. Not every character in a comic universe conforms to the standard, nor does every Champions game. Tying it to the Champions Universe is important because, without that, it would be rather difficult to create backgrounds and origins for the characters. It gives them some narrative center, IMO but YMM (and clearly does) V.

[MitchellS]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

Not every character in a comic universe conforms to the standard' date=' nor does every Champions game.[/quote']

IMO the purpose of official books shouldn't be to cater to those who choose to use the material in a non-standard way. If someone wants to play a 250 point CU game that is fine but the books shouldn't be written for those people. The books should be written for the CU standard and is someone wants to play lower or higher point games they should do the legwork themselves. It's far easier for the 10% of buyers who play at 250 points to make characters weaker then it is for the 90% who don't to be forced to make the adjustments, IMO.

[nexus]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

And there is nothing stopping you from using the lower powered characters in this book. Use more of them at once, use them in creative ways, use them for PC ego boosts or upgrade them a little. You can use the higher powered characters are normal and if you are running a lower powed game either in the CU or outside it, you can use the lower powered characters as is. More potential use, particularly for me as I find it much easier to power up than power down. But I don't think I'm going to change your mind and it hardly matters; you don't play Champions so you wouldn't be using these characters with some fairly extensive conversion even if they did meet with your approval.

[MitchellS]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

But I don't think I'm going to change your mind and it hardly matters; you don't play Champions so you wouldn't be using these characters with some fairly extensive conversion even if they did meet with your approval.

Just FYI, I'd say the same thing on the M&M forum I'm saying here if Green Ronin published a new book of villains for Freedom City and 1/3 of them were PL 8 or lower.

[nexus]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

And if I played mutants and masterminds I'd probably saying sometbing similar to you there

 

It just seemed odd to complain so vehmently about characters being unusable without alteration when you'd have to convert to use them anyway. If, for example, you were really really enthusiastic about Buzzsaw, you could make him any PL you wanted when you did his M and M character sheet.

 

Andthere's still the other 2/3rds of the book. I haven't used 2/3rds of the characters CKC yet.

[MitchellS]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

It just seemed odd to complain so vehmently about characters being unusable without alteration when you'd have to convert to use them anyway.

You're assuming that just because I play M&M that I have no interest in the CU as an entity unto itself. I see the CU as a living breathing world in much the same way I see Marvel or DC [i don't play in those worlds either but I can still complain when I see Captain American fighting Aunt May ]. Since Champions books are the only Hero books I buy I'm looking for expanded continuity and development. When I see things that make no sense I talk about it. You're also assuming that just because I'm playing M&M now that I'll never play Champions again [you're probably right there though ].

 

If, for example, you were really really enthusiastic about Buzzsaw, you could make him any PL you wanted when you did his M and M character sheet.

I already did his M&M conversion [i've already converted the whole books]. He came out to PL 6.

[name_tamer]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

It always seemed strange to me that there were relatively few low-powered superhumans in the CU. Clearly there's a range of power, and why would it arbitrarily stop at 350 points (or 10 DCs, or 12, or whatever) when the characters go far above that in power? So I was actually glad to see some "weaker" characters in the CU.

[MitchellS]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I don't believe most people find one-punch characters to be that entertaining in the game. Using said characters always ends up with the same storyline: One-punch must threaten something harm to keep from getting hit or One-punch gets one-punched.

[Theron]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I don't believe most people find one-punch characters to be that entertaining in the game. Using said characters always ends up with the same storyline: One-punch must threaten something harm to keep from getting hit or One-punch gets one-punched.

 

I used to play in a no point limit Champions game. I had a 500 pt martial artist with a rogues gallery made of 250 pt villains and they caused me no end of trouble. Look at the Flash and his Rogues Gallery, or even most of Batman's foes compared to what he brings to the table. I refuse to fault a product for requiring the GM to use the contents with a modicum of forethought and creativity.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

As someone who was around for quite a few of the old "CKC has too many high powered villains" arguments, I hope I'm not the only one laughing at the irony. . .

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

As the old adage goes, "Trying to please everyone means no one is completely happy."

[OddHat]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

As someone who was around for quite a few of the old "CKC has too many high powered villains" arguments' date=' I hope I'm not the only one laughing at the irony. . .[/quote']

 

Yup.

 

Has anyone yet complained that there aren't enough VVV characters who can successfully smash a tank?

[Sketchpad]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

I don't believe most people find one-punch characters to be that entertaining in the game. Using said characters always ends up with the same storyline: One-punch must threaten something harm to keep from getting hit or One-punch gets one-punched.

Yet, on the flip side ... people love reading about them in comics Just look at Spidey's villains

[nexus]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

You're assuming that just because I play M&M that I have no interest in the CU as an entity unto itself. I see the CU as a living breathing world in much the same way I see Marvel or DC [i don't play in those worlds either but I can still complain when I see Captain American fighting Aunt May ]. Since Champions books are the only Hero books I buy I'm looking for expanded continuity and development. When I see things that make no sense I talk about it. You're also assuming that just because I'm playing M&M now that I'll never play Champions again [you're probably right there though ].

 

Well no, if you had no interest in the CU, you wouldn't be here. I can't tell if you'll play Champions in the future or not, I'm not psychic, I don't see VV and V effects your future play one way or another, there's a few character you wouldn't use. And sure, you can complain about whatever you like, I'm certainly not trying to stop you. I don't get why you're so adamant about it but... *shrug*

[nexus]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

Yet' date=' on the flip side ... people love reading about them in comics Just look at Spidey's villains[/quote']

 

And inevitably the losers band together for the mandatory Rogue's Gallery gang up adventure.

 

Edit: Of course by that time the hero's gain enough exp from kicking their butts one at a time he can kick them their butts all at once with some effort but that's why being a villain sucks.

[nexus]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

As someone who was around for quite a few of the old "CKC has too many high powered villains" arguments' date=' I hope I'm not the only one laughing at the irony. . .[/quote']

 

That's one reason why I like book personally. It presents a range of opposition and possibilities particularly when combined with the other villian books.

[JmOz]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

any trick ammo characters?

[Enforcer84]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

IMO the purpose of official books shouldn't be to cater to those who choose to use the material in a non-standard way. If someone wants to play a 250 point CU game that is fine but the books shouldn't be written for those people. The books should be written for the CU standard and is someone wants to play lower or higher point games they should do the legwork themselves. It's far easier for the 10% of buyers who play at 250 points to make characters weaker then it is for the 90% who don't to be forced to make the adjustments' date=' IMO.[/quote']

You're picky.

[Loxly]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

As someone who was around for quite a few of the old "CKC has too many high powered villains" arguments' date=' I hope I'm not the only one laughing at the irony. . .[/quote']

 

I wasn't here for that, but I have thought that the CKC point totals where quite high. Then again, the point total for my group at the time was 250, making even the 350ish characters more powerfel than the PCs.

 

And it's one of the reasons I upped out points to 350 for starting characters.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Villains Vandals And Vermin (VVV)

 

any trick ammo characters?

 

no