Polaris Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 I have been looking forward to the coming release of FH. Yesterday, I was talking to a member of our group (the longest running player of the Hero system in our group... he has been playing since first edition). I asked him if he would like to carpool out to the FLGS (our store is a bit of a drive from here, but worth the drive... they never fail to get Hero products in quickly) when FH gets in. He said that he wasn't going to be picking it up. Basically, he (keep in mind, he is not one to bash Hero, so this is not a case of someone that is just cynical) said that the old version of FH is just as good for helping run a FH game as the new book will be, and we should save our money for actual new products. Although he did not make the comparrison, it kind of reminded me of the 3.5 discussion in another thread (I do know that the two are NOT the same... the time between 3.0 and 3.5 was VERY short, and WoTC has put out a pamphlet that helps update the 3.0 books to 3.5, and is not planning on redoing those other books, etc). I have the ebook FH of the last version. I started playing Hero system shortly before FREd came out, so I am more accustomed to Fifth Ed. Even if the updates are somewhat minor (updating stuff from fourth to fifth edition), I would still be buying it. So, this question is not so much for me, as for people that have been playing Hero for a while, and has the older version of FH. Do you plan on getting the new FH? If so, what are you hoping it will have that will be different then what you already have from the older/'classical' version? As people with DoJ think about future update books for FREd, this might help them with some ideas of what people are hoping to get with the new editions. Even if not, I think it would be interesting and could convince some to buy it. Take care, Polaris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 I would say it will definitely be worth it. I've got first and second, and I'll be getting third (that's the new one) when I can. Besides, third will be in print. The others won't. And it'll all be for fifth edition Hero, while the others aren't. Having seen the playtest document, I can say that there's nothing that is just an update. It's all new material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 Well, I can tell you this much: Your friend is wrong. This is not a reprint, this is a new product from the ground up. Its light years beyond the 4e FH, which I always found to be an inferior product myself. Not only that, its gigantic. The playtest document was over 700 pages frex. I think its final formated length is nearly 400 pages. Its chock-full of suggestions, rules clarifications, and coverage of genre tropes. It also has copious advice for how to design magic systems for your campaigns and has IIRC no fewer than 12 example/sample systems that you can use as inspiration or take wholesale. Its packed to the gills with sample prestige classes for race, "classes", culture, and more that you can either use as is, take as inspiration, or modify. Its IMO one of the best books ever released for HERO Games in any of its permutations under any of its owners. The playtest document alone was amazing; I cant wait to get my grubby little hands on a cleaned up, formatted, and illustrated version. Let your friend know, this is not a retread Fantasy HERO designed to gouge your pocket; its a massive (I almost daresay definitive) tome of time-saving tips and creativity vitalizers. He will want a copy once he sees it in person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 Basically, he (keep in mind, he is not one to bash Hero, so this is not a case of someone that is just cynical) said that the old version of FH is just as good for helping run a FH game as the new book will be, and we should save our money for actual new products. Unless he was a playtester, I don't see how he could possibly make that judgment until the product is out. If he's proceeding on the assumption that one version of a genre book is just as good as any other version, well, he should remember what happens when one assumes. Certainly any fan is welcome to his or her opinion, good or bad, about any of our books. But in the interest of fairness, people ought to at least wait until the book is out and they can compare the two products before leaping to a conclusion. FYI, the final length of FH: 416 pages. Given that the 4th Ed. FH was only 256 pages, much of which was devoted to a campaign setting, that should tell you right off the bat that the new FH has a lot more material and info for running Fantasy games with the HERO System than the 4th Ed. version did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 Try this as an experiment. Do you have a copy of 3rd Edition Champions? If you do, hold that book up and compare it to what Aaron Allston wrote in last year's tome. That should give a general basis of comparison for what the new Fantasy Hero will be like, compared to the first one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 I'm in wait-and-see mode on the new FH. That it contains many pages will only be a good thing if I like what's on those pages. If Star Hero is any indication FH will be okay but nothing to write home about. If FREd is any indication then 5th ed FH could actually ruin FH. But again, I'm waiting to see the final book. Then judgement will be swift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 Huh, thats odd Old Man; up til now Id only heard glowing reviews of Star HERO. I thumbed thru my copy but dont have enough interest in the genre to read it closely, and thus dont have my own opinion on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 I'll take a look at it, but I don't know. I tend to aim for mechanical simplicity and minimal mechanical design time (as opposed to world building) when doing non-supers genres and have another system I've been using for fantasy. If I like the execution and it cuts down on the work I have to do to run fantasy in hero I might consider buying it. We'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 I'll be getting it because I've been infected with the FH bug. Nobody I know is running SH, and nobody I know will be doing so in the near future so I probably will not be getting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Rotwang! Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Well, lessee: I loves me some fantasy. I loves me some HERO. Whuzzat? Fantasy HERO with lotsa stuff in it that my 2nd Ed FH hasn't? Steve sez he can't hold a copy for me at GenCon, but he sure as heck won't mind signing it 'cause I'm gettin some! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgaptte Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 I am a long time HERO player (~20 years). I've owned all editions of the FH rules. This will be the best yet and I cannot wait for it...it's so close! _And_, this time there will actually be decent support for the genre (Grimoire, Worldbooks etc). I have 5 copies on order from my FLGS. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Originally posted by tgaptte I have 5 copies on order from my FLGS. Tim Damn. Thats hardcore. You can keep one by each toilet, the bed, the game table, and your desk. Well done. Wall to wall Fantasy HERO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 I'm hoping that, if FH5 does not suck, there will be published modules for it. There are a lot of GMs out there that just don't have the time or energy to come up with good adventures once a week. Converting D&D modules, like we used to have to do, has some obvious and serious drawbacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Well, I am planning on getting it: I am a fantasy Fan and a Hero Fan. However, I am also a long time Hero GM, more than capable of making up my own stuff on the fly and I never buy stuff (any stuff) "just because". I can say straight up that I will buy FH, because if there is one thing Steve excels at, it is "compilation" volumes. I have never run a Dark Champions game, but I bought Dark Champions because it had a lot of neat "stuff" -weapons, gadgets, character ideas that could be adapted to things I DID want to run. Likewise, UMA - one of my essential gaming reference items. I expect FH to be the same - only more so, hopefully :-) cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herolover Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Another playtester speaks. As another playtester let me tell you this is in no way a reprint. If you are interested in doing Fantasy with the HERO system you will love this book. If you aren't interested in Fantasy...then why are you in this forum? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbarron Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Originally posted by Old Man I'm in wait-and-see mode on the new FH. That it contains many pages will only be a good thing if I like what's on those pages. If Star Hero is any indication FH will be okay but nothing to write home about. If FREd is any indication then 5th ed FH could actually ruin FH. But again, I'm waiting to see the final book. Then judgement will be swift. "Getting tired, old man?" Sorry, I always wanted to say that. What is it that you are looking for from these genre books, Old Man? I think Star Hero is excellent, and I suspect FH will be very similar in style and content. What is it that SH lacks or has too much of that makes you think it is only of passing quality/usefulness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Originally posted by Steve Long Unless he was a playtester, I don't see how he could possibly make that judgment until the product is out. And if he is a playtester...same thing. Anyone who's seen the manuscript would never make that judgment. The only part of 4th Edition FH that holds a candle up to the new one is the "creating a magic system" section. Aaron's writing is (as always excellent); but Steve has gone way beyond Aaron in terms of the types of systems discussed and suggested. Plus, no spell colleges. Yay! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris Posted July 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Herolover, I do like Fantasy, and definitely intend on buying it. It seems that most people here are certainly interested in buying it. There are a few that are wanting to see it before buying it (definitely a good idea... look before buying, so that people don't buy it thinking it is something it isn't). Thanks for the feedback and comments on my question. Polaris... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seenar Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Originally posted by Geoff Speare And if he is a playtester...same thing. Anyone who's seen the manuscript would never make that judgment. The only part of 4th Edition FH that holds a candle up to the new one is the "creating a magic system" section. Aaron's writing is (as always excellent); but Steve has gone way beyond Aaron in terms of the types of systems discussed and suggested. Plus, no spell colleges. Yay! See I like Spell Collages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 Originally posted by Old Man I'm in wait-and-see mode on the new FH. That it contains many pages will only be a good thing if I like what's on those pages. If Star Hero is any indication FH will be okay but nothing to write home about. If FREd is any indication then 5th ed FH could actually ruin FH. But again, I'm waiting to see the final book. Then judgement will be swift. Do I understand that you dislike Fred? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherSkip Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! to be Old Man! His judgement is Swift!!!!! His judgement is Final. His judgement is.............. Terrible? Realisitically IMNSHO his(old man's) Opinion expressed on these boards is over the non-balance of weapons. heck Old Man, Steve _Even_ provides options for rebalancing the weapons list...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaddakim Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 I plan on buying it for several reasons: 1) Every edition so far had had something I could use in it. Even the spell colleges had a useful limitation (Must have x points in y college) - poorly executed, but useful none-the-less. 2) I am currently running a long-standing FH game and can use all the source material I can get. Not having to translate it from a different game system is a major bonus. 3) I enjoy seeing how different people do the same thing I do in my fantasy game, but differently. Several of the examples in FREd were very cool ways of doing things and I expect to see the same in the new edition of FH. Heck, even the explanations of what not to do lead to interesting ideas. 4) To poke a stick in the eye of those insulting bastards at Guardians of Order. Have you seen the ads they have been running in Game Trader magazine? I will never buy another product of theirs, ever, and I had been planning to until I saw those ads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 Re: the Guardians Of Order ads -- relax, it's not an insult. It was something we jointly agreed to. They did three ads poking fun at us, we did three ads poking fun at them. We all had a great time. It's nothing to get upset about at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 Originally posted by AnotherSkip heck Old Man, Steve _Even_ provides options for rebalancing the weapons list...... So I'm supposed to drop thirty bucks on a book and then rewrite parts of it? Realisitically IMNSHO his(old man's) Opinion expressed on these boards is over the non-balance of weapons. My larger issues with FREd have to do with the way it nearly ignores heroic level games. Heroic support is limited to a couple of off-the-cuff chapters on weapons and armor; if you're lucky you can find where it mentions that you don't have to pay points for weapons (a huge complaint about FH for people who don't know the difference between it and Champions). As for Star Hero, it was okay, don't get me wrong--but it could have been better. SH is great for folks who already know how the system works but I pity the new GM who's trying to piece together the details of his campaign. Things that are specific to campaign flavor are strewn throughout the book, rather than being collected in the "Creating a Campaign" section. Using psionics as an example, there is far too much "depending on the kind of campaign you want, you know, you might or might not want to allow teleportation, and you'll have to decide whether to allow power frameworks..." while there is not enough "Low-Psi campaign: no frameworks, 20 AP limit, no teleport. High-Psi campaign: elemental controls, 60 AP limit, teleport OK." IOW each section should have had multiple-guess power level or flavor choices, and then "standard" campaign types (such as Retro SF) could have been assembled from these. That would make it easier for new GMs to get started. Experienced players have no problem futzing with the frameworks to get the exact campaign they want, but even they could benefit from this approach as it would save them a lot of work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightshade Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 I'm definately going to get it. I pretty much only run Fantasy HERO games and have my own world, so a lot of it may not be necessarily useful, but hey, if it was half as good as I have read from the playtesters, I will be more than happy to spend some cash on it. Plus it keeps HERO healthy, which makes them publish more books, which gives us more potential for even better quality stuff. Nightshade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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