The artwork drives me nuts

[Hermit]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

I don't have VVV yet, but the art even before that lately has been a bit disappointing. It's either rehashed art from other products I already have, or just not as good as stuff that came before (In My Opinion.. that is). The attempts at the more anime-cartoonish art really turn me off because, well, that's not my thing. Others differ, I know.

 

I'm not sure what the answer is. DoJ/Hero is trying to keep its budget under control, and competition for good artists by various RPG companies/comic book companies, etc seems fierce. If DoJ/Hero tries to compete, they might have to raise the prices on their books, and risk losing further fans who can no longer fit it in THEIR budget.

 

I think the best solution is for Darren or Steve to win the lottery, but I'm not sure how to make that happen yet.

[Tech]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

I've seen the art since Champions I to Hero 5th. I was first attracted to the Hero Games system when I saw Champions first edition because of.. the art, not the system. However, it was the system that solidified my staying with Hero Games, including that dark period of time when no Hero Games material was being produced. I am glad that Hero Games is coming out with new material despite some of the art. I will continue to buy Hero Games material despite the art.

 

However..

 

I don't have any facts or figures to back me up and I hope I'm wrong (certainly Steve and the other employees of Hero Games are aware of these things) but I am concerned about how well the Hero Games system is growing among those who aren't part of the the fans of the system already. Is the system expanding into new players slowly or quickly? If slowly, it is the art or is it that the rules are now overly complicated; perhaps it might be the economy. I doubt these questions will be answered or can be answered easily.

 

On the art aspect, I greatly prefer good art in a Hero Games book if we can get it over mediocre art but I'd also prefer some art of modest level rather than large amount of bad art. By the same reason, I prefer color art over black & white but color art is restrictive in it's cost. Still, when using black & white art, I'd like to see Hero Games use good art; I saw the pdf version of Villains, Vandals & Vermin, I rolled my eyes at Mantis Man thinking it reminded me of the art from Villains & Vigilantes.

 

Will I still buy it? Most likely yes since I can ignore bad art (for the most part) and am more interested in the stats, backgrounds and uses.

[MitchellS]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

The presentation value for the M&M books is general outstanding and I fail to understand why HERO cannot do the same for the Champions line.

If you're talking about a little flashier presentation then yes, that's easily possible. Hero Games has just decided they prefer the newsprint format. If you're talking about full-color then no, that's not possible. Hero Games does'nt print in the type of volume that would make full-color printing viable.

 

Then again, the use of the one standard Champions universe is silly. It stopped or delayed a number great projects such as a Protectors sourcebook, Scott Bennie's Gestalt and Aaron Allston's Stike Force. The current Champions universe just does not strike me as a comic book reality and the artwork really stops me even more so.

I don't believe publishing the CU has anything to do with not wanting to publish the other books you've mentioned. If you remember Hero was going to publish Psych Wars before Allen left the company. That book had no connection to the CU. There could be many other reasons why the above projects were not considered for publication by Hero Games [and personally, outside of Gestalt, I have no interest in seeing Hero keep republishing the same things over and over anyway]. On top of that Aaron's not some poor dishwasher at McDonalds. If he really wanted to publish Strike Force I'm sure he could get the money together and do it himself. Hero seems quite willing to license out to anyone.

[SAVeira]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

If you are talking about a little flashier presentation then yes' date=' that is easily possible. Hero Games has just decided they prefer the newsprint formate. If you're talking about full-color then no, that is not possible. Hero Games does not print in the type of volume that would make full-color printing viable.[/quote']

No, I am not talking about full-color, am talking about the presentation. Just look the M&M adventure Time of Vengeance. It was in B&W, but it still look amazing and easy to read.

[MitchellS]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

No' date=' I am not talking about full-color, am talking about the presentation. Just look the M&M adventure Time of Vengeance. It was in B&W, but it still look amazing and easy to read.[/quote']

Yes, I agree with you then. I've long said there was no reason for the simple layout in the Champions books. IMO the Champs line shouldn't look like the other genre lines. Each genre should have some defining layout characteristics that make them unique. Champions is a genre suited to higher presentation value whereas. I don't think Hero is going to want to change now though.

[zen_hydra]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

I will be very sad if I have to wait for Champions/Hero to change ownership again before the production quality goes up.

 

I was very impressed with the 5ed books when they first came out. Unfortunately, it seems that there has been a steady degradation of the art quality ever since then.

 

Perhaps this is just another sign of the forthcoming tabletop-rpg apocalypse.

[bwdemon]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

I bought VVV at Origins and, for the first time I can remember, I felt like my joy for the system and its products had died a bit. I don't think it was the subject matter, since I've always loved books filled with characters and have bought and enjoyed similar products for other games recently. The art might have something to do with it, but I can't say for sure. If not the art, then I have no idea what it could be. All I know is that I give the book a resounding "meh"

 

I plan to give NOTW a shot to see if it's still got any pull for me, but if VVV is any indication...

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

No' date=' I am not talking about full-color, am talking about the presentation. Just look the M&M adventure Time of Vengeance. It was in B&W, but it still look amazing and easy to read.[/quote']

 

Don't have that one, so I can't compare directly.

 

I could see a little snazzying things up, so long as it doesn't start looking all annoying and cluttered like Champs: New Millineium, D&D 3.x (The worst laid out books I have ever seen, they are flat out hard to read), or White Wolf's stuff (thinking Abberrant here - that was just a mess).

 

No broken columns bleeding around character artwork, no huge amount of offset boxes with text, no "trying to look like a webpage".

 

These are books dang it, and quite often reference books. They should be easy to read, and easy to find things in; but I can see that there is such a thing as too simplistic as well.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

I bought VVV at Origins and' date=' for the first time I can remember, I felt like my joy for the system and its products had died a bit. [/quote']

 

I didn't have quite the same reaction, but I understand it. I just mock the artwork, and I feel better.

[HeroGM]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

Ok, I'm going to put my head up my butt here for a minute.

 

A lot of what I've seen in this thread is stuff I commented on back when Hero did the clip art covers and (to me) declining artwork when Combat and Equipment Guide. Apparently I'm not as crazy as people seem to keep telling me I am.

 

And I've probably said this before. I got into Hero by accident. I started into rpg'ing while in Italy, small Navy base, not much to do at the time. One of the G.I's started a super-hero game right before I came back to the states (so soon that I couldn't join in ). From what I could remember Champion's fit the bill (it wasn't though, it was actually Superworld from Worlds of Wonder) and liked it. After awhile it seemed like the Hero stuff had died out and while in a game shop in Dallas someone pointed out that Champion's had come out with a 4th Edition (witih a nice 4 color cover by George Perez!). After that I've stuck with Hero through the good times and bad (ICE, Bell, C;NM).

 

I've seen super hero games come and go, DC Heroes, Marvel (what 2-3 of them now?), V&V, etc...the closest that could topple Hero was always the Marvel game, now it seems that Mutants & Masterminds could. Their message board has a number of threads of people leaving Hero to "something better" (and yes, a few coming back to Hero or switching to it). In my mind this is Hero's major competition at the moment and they seem to be handling it badly. That's my opinion on how I see things. Real or not I'm not going to debate.

 

After all, I've said such things before, got blasted because of my opinion (and quite a few red dots on my reputation). Personally I'd rather say something and be called a fool then just sit in the corner and watch it all go to heck. Helps me sleep better at night.

 

Then again, according to quite a number on here, I'm not in my right mind either.

[Lemurion]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

I started playing Champions almost 20 years ago, back around the beginning of 1988. It's always been my favorite RPG, but the art is becoming more and more of a problem. I tend to divide things into threes-- positive, neutral, or negative. I don't need a positive on the art, but I do need that it not be a negative. Too much of the art is moving to the negative and VVV is the worst example I've seen. Reprint books having reprint art is fine. But no art is better than ugly amateurish art.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

O

A lot of what I've seen in this thread is stuff I commented on back when Hero did the clip art covers and (to me) declining artwork when Combat and Equipment Guide. Apparently I'm not as crazy as people seem to keep telling me I am.

 

I saw it then, but I had hoped it was a temporary thing. When VVV came out, the art was among the worst (with the DC enemies book), but we have seen some with better. I was just hoping that we had hit bottom and were going to come back up. That hasn't materialized.

 

Edit - Now the art will never keep me from buying the books, I'm in it for the content, but it would be nice to have some better artwork.

[Zephrosyne]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

Put me in the category of someone who doesn't really care that much about the art. I prefer substance over style and I feel that you get a lot from Hero products for what they charge. If I want art, I'll go to a museum. I've seen a good number of "pretty" books with lousy substance. The only roleplaying game that I have seen where the art truly disturbed me was Blood of Heroes (the first edition). That actually scared the living hell out of me!

[Enforcer84]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

I buy game books for both. I appreciate good art. It will make me remember the book better.

[HeroGM]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

While I'll go with the substance over flash, at the same time a good cover will pull a buyer to pick it up. Strong artwork on the inside can tempt a person to scan the book.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

I've never met anyone who has picked up a gaming book and gone "Woah, wait, can't play this - artwork is bad."

 

Ever.

 

And personally - I think the crap WotC is putting into their books is pure, complete, and utter garbage. They don't even color inside the lines most of the time. Frickin' kindergarten BS there. They sell more books than anyone else.

 

Yeah .... art alone sells the books. Not buying that line at all.

[Captain Liberty]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

As was pointed out above, artwork sells comic books, and it can help sell a game about comic book action.

 

I haven't seen VVV (and probably won't) but I picked up Champions Worldwide at DunDraCon and finally got around to looking at it a month or so ago - my loot bag got buried in my office. Some of the artwork puts my teeth on edge. Some of it directly contradicts the descriptions of the characters, some of it might tie in with the descriptions but is too amorphous to be sure, and almost all of it (except for some re-used pieces) is just not superhero comic book art. Part of what makes you want to use a character in your game is a picture that gives you an idea what they are about. Mark Williams (called "the hack" mostly because of his speed and dependence on certain poses) gave you a drawing of a character that told you something about the character. A book full of "Lump Man" just isn't very inspiring.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

I've never met anyone who has picked up a gaming book and gone "Woah, wait, can't play this - artwork is bad."

 

Ever.

 

And personally - I think the crap WotC is putting into their books is pure, complete, and utter garbage. They don't even color inside the lines most of the time. Frickin' kindergarten BS there. They sell more books than anyone else.

 

Yeah .... art alone sells the books. Not buying that line at all.

Just to carry with this sentiment, I was getting royally pissed off with WOTC's stuff specifically because it was nothing by "pretty" pictures, graphic layouts, and other superfluous crap.

 

I hate that Profantasy is not using the WOTC style for CC3 maps. It's utter garbage IMO.

 

I also DO NOT purchase gaming books for the artwork.

 

The only thing that I feel Hero books lack are enough maps and floor plans. But I understand that cartography costs money and I'll take the content over pictures any day of the week.

 

TB

[FenrisUlf]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

All I can say is, if we're talking specific pieces of art, then the picture of Queen Mara in Hidden Worlds is just plain horrid. I apologize to the artist, but she was supposed to be an attractive woman, not some... misshapen lump.

[Enforcer84]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

I've never met anyone who has picked up a gaming book and gone "Woah, wait, can't play this - artwork is bad."

 

Ever.

 

And personally - I think the crap WotC is putting into their books is pure, complete, and utter garbage. They don't even color inside the lines most of the time. Frickin' kindergarten BS there. They sell more books than anyone else.

 

Yeah .... art alone sells the books. Not buying that line at all.

I've not purchased books if I don't like the art. Even for systems I like. The art in the book goes a long way towards me getting drawn into the setting.

 

Just me. If the art is bad that's what appears in my head. My early feel for D&D came from Errol Otis, Jeff Dee and it was good. Larry Elmore and Clyde Caldwell Later. For Champions the feel has always been Mark William's fluid brevity, followed by Pat Zircher and Storn Cook's more modern feel. It really does make a difference to me. I had almost all the Mutants & Masterminds stuff because the production and setting feel was so good. Pity I hate the actual system...Once we started playing, I was left unimpressed and went back to HERO. But the pretty package can get me to give things a try.

[BNakagawa]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

Art in RPGs is a lot like Attractiveness in Pop Stars.

 

Theoretically, they don't have anything to do with the principal reason for liking them, but when you crunch the numbers...

[MitchellS]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

I've never met anyone who has picked up a gaming book and gone "Woah, wait, can't play this - artwork is bad."

 

Ever.

 

And personally - I think the crap WotC is putting into their books is pure, complete, and utter garbage. They don't even color inside the lines most of the time. Frickin' kindergarten BS there. They sell more books than anyone else.

 

Yeah .... art alone sells the books. Not buying that line at all.

I have literally put down dozens of books because the interior presentation was terrible. On the flip side I have purchased many books for systems I did not like simply because of the production values of the book. I purchased the entire M&M 1e line based on nothing but presentation.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

I've never met anyone who has picked up a gaming book and gone "Woah, wait, can't play this - artwork is bad."

 

Ever.

 

I did once, and I was completely flabbergasted. I was working in a game/comic shop, early in D&D3rd's lifespan. We had a number of d20 books, and they sold solidly. We had the creature collection in, and one guy picked it up, and flipped through it, and the guy with him said "Man, it's not in color, that sucks" and the first said "Yeah, the art is horrible" and they put it down, and looked through other books, and finally bought a WotC book.

 

:eek:

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

I've not purchased books if I don't like the art. Even for systems I like. The art in the book goes a long way towards me getting drawn into the setting.

 

That is a good point.

 

Something I realized in a similar discussion - I have never in my life used a published setting, so artwork that is used to give a setting it's feel is wasted on me. I actively ignore art in game books half the time for this reason, to me it is just wasted space. But I have never been a visually driven person. I've always been a words driven person.

[Enforcer84]

Re: The artwork drives me nuts

 

And we've seen the evolution of some good artists here at HERO. Storn has gone from "Gamer Artist" to "ARTIST" IMO

 

I still check out the wbsites of some of my favorites. Ingiri, Davenpoe, Eric, BNakagawa , Greg Smith, Nato, Chris Stevens...some I miss, Mark Williams, Bill Willoughby, Glenn Johnson, Patrick Zircher (Marvel's got at least one thing going for them in my book)...ah nostolgia sorry what were we talking about?