All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

[Nucleon]

Nucleon apologize, mortals, for the steam he is about to let out.

 

You see, He is in the elaboration of a campaign that He will start as a player -a rarity- before taking the helm later. And all the players are playing some kind of martial brick.

 

It is even more frustrating that the last campaign had been a strategic failure because all of the players in it (almost all the same ones) were... martial bricks.

 

Bricks with CSLs, Strong martial artists, beings of fire that stretches and hit hard, Animalistic bricks, pure brick with martial trainings... Thou name them. It felt like the DC universe. Nucleon (as a GM) used to regularly mop the floor with them, even with mediocre opposition, as soon as said opposition could fly and hurl some juice, the whole bunch'o' marbricks were out.

 

We had to re-boot the past campaign as a super hero academy (where players played one veteran martial brick and one younger other) to finally get a decent palette of powers.

 

Are martial bricks as common in every other super-campaigns? Why?

 

How to deal with PCs that end up all the same?

 

And how come Nucleon put some sense into His playing circle? After all, it looks like it is what they want to play, in spite of all the past ineptitude.

 

 

[Hermit]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

It's an effective combo, but I don't normally care for playing them myself, though I do have a few.

[Kirby]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

When you're the GM, you can simply state "No bricks."

 

Martial Bricks aren't all that common in the games I've played in. In FtF games, it was generally martial artists, but not the brick type.

 

Although, I was in one campaign where everyone was a brick but my character - and THEY had a bad rep for property damage! (Which was funny because the ONE time my character did property damage on a large scale, he leveled an entire building and damaged neighboring ones. Fortunately, no one ever found out that it was his fault.)

 

When the other PCs end up all the same, you might trying playing a smart alec who pokes fun at their common-ness. Just try doing it in a light-hearted way instead of an insulting way.

[JmOz]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

It's an effective combo' date=' but I don't normally care for playing them myself, though I do have a few.[/quote']

 

Well it depends on your definition of terms, I see alot of MA with Str in the 25-30 range, and 15 DEF or so, also many strait bricks use MA package (but not the dex/speed common to a MArtist) as an extra umph to there combat abilities. But in my game almost all heroes have some MA package (Blasters have ranged MA's, etc...)

[Hermit]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

Well it depends on your definition of terms' date=' I see alot of MA with Str in the 25-30 range, and 15 DEF or so, also many strait bricks use MA package (but not the dex/speed common to a MArtist) as an extra umph to there combat abilities. But in my game almost all heroes have some MA package (Blasters have ranged MA's, etc...)[/quote']

 

Yeah, my TT games are usually the opposite. The Bricks may have Brick tricks, but not usually Martial Arts (be they a real martial art, or 'brick fu'). The Energy Projectors often have skill levels (Be it CSLs, or PSLs vs range) but none of my players have gotten a range martial art style with it. Which is fine by me really.

[Enforcer84]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

It's the same players? That's what they like.

I like bricks too.

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

Whenever I design any character with a couple of years of experience as a superhero under their belt, I usually give 'em 2-3 MA maneuvers and 1-2 CSL's. This is mainly me answering my own question of "If they're going to go out and fight crime, wouldn't they get some training on how to do it?" I also tend to give such characters 10-15 points in some sort of gadget pool.

 

EDIT - thus, yeah - my current 250-point Brick (Icon) has 2 MA maneuvers: Flying Dodge and Flying Throw. She'll probably pick up Flying Grapple, plus maybe a Strike. However, she's got a CV of 5, and a SPD of 4. That's more in the "I went down to the dojo and I'm almost a black-belt", rather than "I've studied in the Mountains of Tibet".

[Nucleon]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

By "Martial Brick" (or marbricks), Nucleon means anything wich has;

 

-Over 45 STR, and about 90 active points of hth damage in any given strike.

-Between 10 and 15 CV with CSLs. DEXes around 20-29.

-About 40 active points in PD defenses, usually some combination of Damage reduction and mundane stuff.

-No or few ranged attacks, marginalized by insane amounts of limitations.

-Some M-arts moves, the barest bones; Dodge. Punch. Throw.

-And an Attitude. Hopefully.

 

From there, there are the usual variations, but in game terms, they're all treated with the same medication; What topples one usually topple them all. They get in the way of one another rushing the ennemy, that they either blast easily or all fall victims of.

 

(When thy only tool is a hammer, did thou noticed how much all problems appear as nails?)

 

Ironically, most PCs are kinda "brickish", due the the largesses du systeme, yet few players are true "heavyweight" bricks; When these appear, with their speeds and CVs of 5, and their absorption, and their huges defenses, and their AEs, down goes the erzatz bricks.

[/rant]

 

Nucleon guesses He is kinda peeved right now. He'll tell you why:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He intended to play one Himself.

 

Bah, Just a minor setback.

 

[Comic]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

I generally don't put martial arts and Brick attributes in the same character. Dunno why. It just seems.. not to my tastes, I guess.

 

If I do use martial arts at all, it's typically something like 'hockey' or 'rhythmic gymnastics' and included in a package for background and flavor, and often not used in actual game combat. Great justification for high dex, or good way to put the high dex to use in fun pastimes.

 

I also seldom make my Bricks movement deficient, in any case. And they're usually scaredy cats who take cover when shot at.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

I can think of a few reasons.

 

One, they're reasonably effective for the points. 45 STR and 15 points in Martial Maneuvers gives you more flexibility, cuts your END costs a bit, and gives you a lot more STUN than a straight 20 STR Martial Artists.

 

Two, they're often more fun than straight bricks, because you don't have to worry about 'Hulk Smash' syndrome, where you feel like you just stand there and swing at things. More variety in actions (even though that's a false comparison because you can just make a Brick Tricks multipower, some players often get rooted in stereotypes).

 

Three, as you say, it's a popular archetype in comics, thus tends to copy over to comics fans playing superhero RPGs.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

Yes, I've noticed a decided tendency over the years for a good number of Champions characters to take on "brick" like and "ma" like characteristics...or both.

 

Like most imbalances in the game, it comes down to the old saw that STR is too cheap, thus making all characters that take advantage of that efficiency very effective. Martial arts are also an efficient way to do something very similar (do damage in HtH). The two are combinable, thus granting even greater synergy. Natural selection handles it from there.

 

Basically, if you don't like demi-bricks you just need to ride herd on characters having more STR than their concepts justify. Of course, if you are a player and everyone else is playing one, then you're just screwed.

 

On the plus side, it should be really easy to make a character that truly stands out from that sea of sameness. Just make sure your character is demi-brick resistant (but be subtle about it) in addition to whatever their actual shtick is, and you're golden.

[Trebuchet]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

We have no martial bricks in our campaign. Our sole brick is unabashedly slow (SPD 4) and not particularly dexterous (DEX 23). We do have a demi-brick, but he's really more of a brick/EB.

 

I was unaware this archetype was so popular.

[bwdemon]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

Your players have all gone the power gaming route...

 

1. High STR, because it's really efficient! (downside: no range)

 

2. Martial Arts, because it's really efficient and stacks with STR! (downside: no range)

 

3. Damage Reduction, because it's insanely efficient! (downside: none, which is why I don't allow it in any game unless absolutely appropriate - usually with a -2 limitation like "only vs. fire")

 

4. Hole-Filling Limited Ranged Attacks, because why pay full price for something you aren't going to use all the time? (downside: that dirty feeling that just doesn't go away, no matter how much you wash)

 

I honestly wouldn't play in the game, but that's me.

[Bloodstone]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

Last campaign I was in we had a full on brick that used Suai-Jaio. He initially had a 70 STR, 18 DEX and a 4 SPD. He reduced that STR to 50 since he was busting the 14DC damage cap. Then we had the demi brick that used Capoeira. He had a 40 STR, 30 DEX and 6 SPD. Then there was the strong martial artist that used Savate. She had 25 STR, 30 DEX and 6 SPD.

 

We also had a gun toting shaman that normally had a 20 STR but could buff it up to 40 when he needed via his spells. He had a fictional jungle fighting martial art too.

 

Of course, this isn't all that odd based on the source material. There were times where just about everyone on the Avengers knew martial arts, including the Bricks. For example, our team would be similar to playing on a team that included Hercules, Beast and Captain America.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

By "Martial Brick" (or marbricks), Nucleon means anything wich has;

 

-Over 45 STR, and about 90 active points of hth damage in any given strike.

-Between 10 and 15 CV with CSLs. DEXes around 20-29.

-About 40 active points in PD defenses, usually some combination of Damage reduction and mundane stuff.

-No or few ranged attacks, marginalized by insane amounts of limitations.

-Some M-arts moves, the barest bones; Dodge. Punch. Throw.

-And an Attitude. Hopefully.

 

The first thing I note is the rather high power level. Would a different archetype (say an energy projector) end up with the same combat effectiveness, or would they be marginalized while the MarBricks get all the glory? Would a more standard Brick be allowed a 90 STR to be competetive in damage, and a straight 40 PD, plus enough levels to be in the same CV range? Or, alternatively, be allowed to take even higher damage and defenses as a tradeoff for a lower CV?

 

If the MarBrick is allowed to be "the most effective", then getting someone to play something else becomes old 1st Ed D&D "Who gets to play the Cleric and heal everyone while the rest of us take all the glory".

 

Given your descriptions, it sounds like this is not the issue, since the opposition is clearly effective using other archetypes, but sometimes the rules for PC's and NPC's are different.

 

From there' date=' there are the usual variations, but in game terms, they're all treated with the same medication; What topples one usually topple them all. They get in the way of one another rushing the ennemy, that they either blast easily or all fall victims of.[/quote']

 

In most mature groups, I find the problem is solved by mutual agreement to play characters of different schticks. The problem here may be that the players don't respect the idea that each character should have their own schtick and avoid stepping on the other players' toes, or that the MarBrick is the most effective archetype due to the way the GM restricts various characters. I'd say "campaign style", but your comments make it clear that the campaign style isn't catering to the archetype.

 

He intended to play one Himself.

 

Perhaps the answer is to play an archetype as far away from MarBrick as possible and show how effective this is. Don't forget to brag as your character gets all the glory - since every challenge he's best suited for facing will be his alone and the challenges the MarBricks excel at are shared with everyone else.

 

Your players have all gone the power gaming route...

 

Except Nucleon's comments make it pretty clear that it's not working out as "efficient" in game. They get their heads handed to them

 

1. High STR, because it's really efficient! (downside: no range)

 

2. Martial Arts, because it's really efficient and stacks with STR! (downside: no range)

 

That downside is costing them. Is it really powergaming when you stick with an archetype that consistently loses?

 

3. Damage Reduction' date=' because it's insanely efficient! (downside: none, which is why I don't allow it in any game unless absolutely appropriate - usually with a -2 limitation like "only vs. fire")[/quote']

 

koffsputterkoff

 

In most games I've seen, having, say a 10rPD/40 PD is a lot more efficient than buying a 10 rPD PD and 50% damage reduction. At average damage before defenses of 70, the two are even on Stun (both targets take 30 Stun). At lower average damage levels, the 40 PD comes out ahead. The Dam Red character wins at higher damage levels. And he's still taking BOD. A 20d6 attack averages 70 Stun, so it's a pretty high end campaign where damage reduction is superior, point for point.

 

4. Hole-Filling Limited Ranged Attacks' date=' because why pay full price for something you aren't going to use all the time? (downside: that dirty feeling that just doesn't go away, no matter how much you wash)[/quote']

 

But it's not filling the hole. From Nucleon's descriptions, their lack of readily available ranged attacks is impeding them considerably.

 

Maybe they expected that their shortcomings wouldn't be used against them, but it sounds like they are. Sticking to a plan that doesn't work doesn't sttrike me as powergaming.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

I don't have the same problem, but for awhile I had a similar team, where everyone was either a MA of some stripe or a brick. Very little ranged capability. Indoors, they could roll over opposition. Out in the open, problems.

 

Martial Bricks are cool. Martial Bricks are 'efficient'. Martial Bricks are patterned after Spider-Man, the most awesomest awesome to ever awe...some.

 

But I think people often forget they need the whole package to get to that level of awesome. Spider-Man's fast, agile, and strong. Check. OK, got yer basic martial brick there. But if that's all he had, would he be nearly as cool? No way. Add in his attitude, webshooters, wallcrawling, spider-sense, science skills etc. and you get the well rounded cool character. If the martial bricks are that well rounded, sounds fine to me. Everyone in the Legion of Super-Heroes has a Flight Ring, so flying is no big deal, focus on the other things. If everyone is strong and can chop-sockey it's no big deal, focus on the other things.

 

If ALL they can do is be strong and chop-sockey, with nothing significant to differentiate them, problem.

 

For example, my group above had:

 

MA who could dish out several high-dice attacks via charges but then didn't do as much damage as the other MAs. Noble soul seeking redemption.

 

MA who had much higher defenses than the other MAs. Flashy gloryhound.

 

MA who had trick shuriken and AP attacks. Sneaky ninja.

 

Sure, they were all martial artists, with their 20/25 Str, package of martial arts, and 30Dexes/6SPDs. But they all played very differently.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

I don't see it a lot in players. The only one I can think of that is close was one of my wife's characters who was a standard brick, and during play helped develop brick-fu and bought that package.

 

I have a Heinz-57 that could qualify. Ballistic - He's a super-suit with a 60 STR, martial arts pacakges (Boxing and Kung fu - long story), among the highest defenses in the game, and a 75 pt spell VPP. Structurally he is a DC sport model brick - Energy projection, flight, high Strength, and sundry other abilities.

[caris]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

You know, maybe, just maybe this has nothing to do with power gaming. Maybe it happens to be that this group of players just happen to like playing Martial Bricks. It does happen on occasion. You get a group of players that like to play similar characters. At least I assume that the possiblity exists. I know that in certain games, that I tend to play the same type of character, and I've known some players that always play characters that were a variation on a theme.

 

It sounds like that is the situation here, you happen to have a group that everyone likes to play variations on the same theme.

 

I would suggest go with it. Rather than trying to convince them how "wrong" they are. Have fun playing out the differences that can be achieved within that limited theme.

[Certified]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

He intended to play one Himself.

 

Bah, Just a minor setback.

 

 

 

Is what you had in mind that similar to what everyone else is playing? Can you tweak the concept to maybe compensate for the others shortcomings? If they are all strong melee types maybe look at the defenses of a Brick but other things you can do as well, maybe Stretching you can still pump out the Brick Damage and take a hit but instead of close range you hit from a distance, this could also lead into forms of travel since you mentioned they have a problem with that as well.

 

To put a martial slant on it the character's powers could be a manifestation of Chi manipulation. Stretching as invisible power effects and the explanation of striking with his force of will, Leaping with the same concept of focusing your Chi to archive crazy Kung-Fu movie jumos.

 

I hope you enjoy your upcoming game and hopefully are not overshadowed by the abundance of Martial Bricks.

[bwdemon]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

In most mature groups' date=' I find the problem is solved by mutual agreement to play characters of different schticks. The problem here may be that the players don't respect the idea that each character should have their own schtick and avoid stepping on the other players' toes, or that the MarBrick is the most effective archetype due to the way the GM restricts various characters. I'd say "campaign style", but your comments make it clear that the campaign style isn't catering to the archetype.[/quote']

 

This is a pretty big issue for me. I'm all about the sacred schtick, so seeing characters stepping all over each other to make martial brick builds says something either about the restrictions elsewhere or the benefits to being a martial brick in the game. Talking straight point efficiency, ignoring the ability to project damage and the decisions the GM makes regarding opponents, the Martial Brick is a fantastic point-efficient build.

 

They chose minimal martial arts, just to get the cheap benefits They chose STR, because it has long been regarded as overly efficient. This doesn't mean they have the best character for all occasions, just that they've spent their points very efficiently from a one-sided perspective. That's the heart of powergaming.

 

Except Nucleon's comments make it pretty clear that it's not working out as "efficient" in game. They get their heads handed to them

 

It's the equivalent of making a character who is absolutely amazing with a chosen weapon. As long as the character has that weapon and is faced with challenges solvable by application of that weapon, then they're an unbeatable force of nature. As soon as the character loses the weapon or faces a challenge outside their realm of expertise, they become incompetent.

 

The Martial Brick Squad gets their heads handed to them when aren't allowed to use their weapons. In this case, flying ranged attackers pretty much neuter their offensive capabilities. Is this a big deal? Maybe.

 

If the GM ran for a group of characters with low ECVs and no Mental Defense, then proceeded to send waves of bathroom mentalists at them, is the impending loss the players' fault or the GM's? The players knowingly went with limited, but point-efficient designs, choosing homogenous designs over gap-filling. The GM knows the characters, so he knew this would go against their weaknesses.

 

Now, what's the difference between mind-controlling enemies and flying/ranged enemies? Comics have generally taught us that the former are more rare than the latter, but that's meaningless really. What matters is that the players are facing threats they weren't designed to handle. Is it the players' fault or the GM's or is it just one of those things they're going to have to learn to deal with?

 

My solution to the whole mess is to say flat-out to the players, "You will face a wide variety of challenges - as wide as I can create given the tools offered by the HERO system - prepare your team accordingly." Then, I'd allow the players to discuss their character ideas amongst each other, before allowing everyone to rebuild/replace their current design.

 

Regarding Damage Reduction, it looks like Damage Reduction isn't figured into defensive AP in this game. So you hit max defensive AP (or just max defense in many games), then you add on Damage Reduction. If there isn't a max defensive AP, then I agree that DR isn't particularly efficient, but HERO players generally combine the two and I rarely see GMs put a leash on this.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

Your players have all gone the power gaming route...

3. Damage Reduction, because it's insanely efficient! (downside: none, which is why I don't allow it in any game unless absolutely appropriate - usually with a -2 limitation like "only vs. fire")

 

Damage Reduction does have downsides -- it's inefficient vs small attacks where an equal points worth of Armor would stop such attacks entirely. It is particularly vulnerable to Autofire. Also, having a flat cost, it represents a significant investment at lower point games (while correspondingly becoming a bargain in higher point higher DC games).

 

Damage Reduction is good, but it does have downsides, and is better in some contexts than others.

[wcw43921]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

--And all the players are playing some kind of martial brick.

 

[snip-snip]

 

Bricks with CSLs, Strong martial artists, beings of fire that stretches and hit hard, Animalistic bricks, pure brick with martial trainings... Thou name them.

 

 

So what does this group plan on calling themselves--by any chance, The Ripping Friends?

 

http://www.thq.com/gamesites/therippingfriends/

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ripping_Friends

 

"IT'S RIPPING TIME!!!"

 

 

[bwdemon]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

Damage Reduction does have downsides -- it's inefficient vs small attacks where an equal points worth of Armor would stop such attacks entirely. It is particularly vulnerable to Autofire. Also, having a flat cost, it represents a significant investment at lower point games (while correspondingly becoming a bargain in higher point higher DC games).

 

Damage Reduction is good, but it does have downsides, and is better in some contexts than others.

 

See my last sentence, just above your post...

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

If I were joining a game where everybody and their Follower was a Martial Brick, I would so play an ice generator with an Entangle and a 'Snowblind' Flash. Let them beat up on things, I'll just be the setup guy.

[JmOz]

Re: All Of Them Damn Martial Bricks

 

If I were joining a game where everybody and their Follower was a Martial Brick' date=' I would so play an ice generator with an Entangle and a 'Snowblind' Flash. Let them beat up on things, I'll just be the setup guy. [/quote']

 

Make sure you have a Phys Man Flight (Ice sleds)