SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

[palaskar]

I vaguely recall someone mentioning somewhere that SPD 4 was in line for a superheroic character who "had taken a few lessons at the dojo, but was not black belt level."

 

This seems really wrong to me, as in a heroic campaign, SPD 4 is master-level. OTOH, your average superhero martial artist seems to have 6 to 8 SPD.

 

Could we come out for a belt/time spent learning table that assigns the "proper' DEX and SPD dependig on belt rank and time spent learning the martial arts for a superhero setting?

[Spidey88]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

So much of this is entirely subjective to the campaign world and point totals - in a 250-point game, a SPD of 5 is "incredibly fast, quicker than anything you've ever seen", whereas in a 500-point game, that SPD 5 is probably going to seem a little on the slow side.

 

There's also the issue of "metas" vs. "norms" - there's sort of a different grading system for the regular people in the world vs. the superheroes. An olympic-level gymnast or martial artist probably has a DEX of around the NCM (20 or so), but a superhero of the martial artist/trained normal variety can easily be much higher than that, even though he has no actual superpowers - it's sort of their schtick to be fairly fast in combat.

 

My advice? Set benchmarks for your own game. If you think Bruce Lee was, say, the greatest martial artist ever, but still a mostly normal guy, you could say he'd have a SPD of 5 (or even 6). If you figure he would still stand out even in a world of superheroes, maybe bump that up slightly. Fit everyone else without superpowers in along that range. Speedsters and such may go past that range.

[gojira]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

My understanding was that for "realism" SPD 4 was as fast as humanly possible. SPD 3 was experienced fight/combatant and SPD 2 was everybody else.

 

For not quite a black belt, I'd probably go with SPD 2. Black belt is pretty much the entry level martial arts competence. SPD 3 is probably around 8 or 9 dan. SPD 4 is Bruce Lee, on a good day.

 

Now if we're talking superheroes and your supermartial artist is SPD 6 or SPD 8, great, no worries. Bruce Lee can even be SPD 8 in the same campaign. I just don't think it's "realism" to do so, but by and large we don't play realistic genres here, we play comic books and action movies. And his movies, Bruce Lee was probably at least SPD 6.

[Bloodstone]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

If your looking for any degree of realism, then belt rank has pretty much nothing to do with SPD and DEX...

[JmOz]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

My understanding was that for "realism" SPD 4 was as fast as humanly possible. SPD 3 was experienced fight/combatant and SPD 2 was everybody else.

 

For not quite a black belt, I'd probably go with SPD 2. Black belt is pretty much the entry level martial arts competence. SPD 3 is probably around 8 or 9 dan. SPD 4 is Bruce Lee, on a good day.

 

Now if we're talking superheroes and your supermartial artist is SPD 6 or SPD 8, great, no worries. Bruce Lee can even be SPD 8 in the same campaign. I just don't think it's "realism" to do so, but by and large we don't play realistic genres here, we play comic books and action movies. And his movies, Bruce Lee was probably at least SPD 6.

 

 

This is a mistake, speed 4, even in heroic games (or with NCM), is only the point of diminishing gain, anyone with the points can go above speed 4 at double the cost. The suggested max for humans is 7 IIRC

[OddHat]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

In the CU, SPD 7 is possible for humans. A SPD 6 or 7 for a "One of the World's Best" human martial artist type isn't inappropriate. Rapid Attack, Two Weapon Fighting, and levels with Sweep can also add up for those real world types who can throw a dozen meaningful punches before even a competent opponent can react.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

I think you have to be liberal when trying to extrapolate superheroic stats from heroic or real world examples, especially DEX and SPD. Remeber, the most competent heroic charachters ore only fit to be agents or competent DNPCS in a superheroic world.

 

Someone with a 20 DEX and 4 SPD is a combat monster. He/she is a highly trained martial artist, athlete or soldier. However, superheroes go up to eleven. It's just the nature of pajama boys to be over the top.

 

Daredevil, Wolverine and others have taken on large groups of Hand ninjas. Think about it, each of those ninjas is a fully fledged "heroic level" character in his own right with DEX of 15 or18 or so, and SPD 3 depending on how you want to write it up. DD has around a 27 DEX, and a SPD of 6 or so, in my mind

 

If you look at the current crop of write ups, 20 DEX and 5 SPD seems to be the default for superheroes, even those who are not martial artists. They aren't often slower than that. A good martial artist is going to start at 25 DEX with a 5 or 6 SPD depending on how many other things they have to pay for and how pure the character concept is. That's the entry level to me. I've only seen a few official writes ups that vary from that.

[pinecone]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

From a pure mechanical view a MA's Speed should be 1 higher than the games "normal" Speed, so he can abort a phase every turn, but still fight effectively.... so in a game where 5 is typical a MA should have speed 5.

 

Heroic level is a little differant, but even there I used to play a master swordsman with a speed of 5...it's just a matter of burning points.

He had plenty of shortcommings, but his speed was truely legendary..

 

I have to second the opinion that "Belts" and personal ability should have No linkage at all Bruce was an amazingly coordinated person...his skill with Wu shu was a seperate matter.

As manny a coach as said..."Ya can't coach height (size, speed etc....)"

[palaskar]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Yes, I know about the thing with the belts. It's just a convinient (sp!) way of converting people. Frex character X has studied for 10, 38, 50 years, so he's probably at (X) SPD and DEX.

 

Or to put it another way, it breaks things down into student/serious student/master/grandmaster, frex. Bruce, Morihei Ueshiba, and the like would probably come out on the top end of the list. Then you have your modern "masters" -- the guys who you meet at conventions and have spent 30-50 years on the martial arts. Then these guys' students -- the guys who run a local school (10 years seems to be the average for this, though there are people who, again, put the system out of whack who have studied for 20-30 years -- like my Taiji teacher), then these guys' serious students, and finally people who are just average students -- not fresh off the street, but not serious about the martial arts.

 

Whew! That's a lot. But that's how I picture the chart going. And as you've said, the people may move up and down the chart. IMHO, a McDojo person is not going to be on the same level as a guy who's studied for 10 years with a "master."

 

Thanks for reassurring things about the 4 SPD. I thought it was a little out of whack.

 

As for SPD/DEX vs. point total, I was talking about the new, base 350-pt. scale. I totally agree that Daredevil would have about 27 DEX -- the CU version of him in the FRed is 6 SPD, 26 DEX.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

palaskar,

 

It sounds like you've already got most of you're system figured out.

 

Student/Serious Student/Master/Grandmaster benchmarks. Don't forget the effects Combat Skill Levels and Martial Maneuvers, as well.

 

Ultimately, the best way (IMO) is to figure out the average *results* you want from the system, and work from that.

 

Start with a Normal human: 8 in all Primary Stats. Does 2d6 Normal Damage, OCV 3, DCV 3.

 

How much better do you want the Student to be? For example, he may have improved his Characteristics, but not enough to make a difference in Damage or CV. But he has some training; enough for one CSL. Now instead of him and Normal hitting each other on 11-, the student chooses 12-/10- or 10-/12-. It's no guarantee of a win, but it tilts the field. Damage is still the same.

 

Now we have the Serious Student: maybe his DEX is 11, he has one CSL, and a Martial Maneuver that is +0 OCV, +2 DCV, +2d6 Damage. Now this guy is going to usually wipe the floor with Normal - he can put his CSL in OCV and be 13- to hit and 8- to be hit, plus he can take an average hit from Normal and keep going, but his normal hit is going to Stun Normal. Give him a 3 SPD and he'll beat Normal almost every time. He'd also pretty much wipe the floor with Student, too.

 

And so on. The ideas above are just examples; figure out how much better you want each 'level' to be than the one above it, and adust DEX, SPD, CSLs, and Maneuvers accordingly (don't forget PD and ED as well!).

 

A real-world example: one of the requirements for a certain belt in American Karate was 'able to hit lower belts at will'. Well, what does, 'at will' mean? Say, 90% of the time? If so, that's a OCV/DCV advantage of 3 (14- will hit about 90% of the time). Bingo! If you choose to apply that standard, make sure that belt can throw a technique that has a +3 OCV/DCV advantage over the next lower belt.

 

Hope that helps. The strength (and weakness) of Hero System is its flexibility. Strength in that you can set up your campaign to achieve the results you want, weakness in that you have to put in the effort to produce those results.

 

[bwdemon]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

The Champions Universe is built with significant DEX & SPD inflation. Characters with no reason to be out of the norm outpace NCM regularly in both DEX and SPD. If you want to build your martial artists for the Champions Universe setting, then you'll want a SPD of 6-7, with some rare few going as high as 8. It's the tax you have to pay to keep up with the rest of the setting. DEX could fall between 24 and 35, depending on the build.

 

If you want to build more realistically, then 3-4 SPD is what you want to look at, with some rare characters going up to 5. DEX could be between 15 and 24.

[Peregrine]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

The Champions Universe is built with significant DEX & SPD inflation. Characters with no reason to be out of the norm outpace NCM regularly in both DEX and SPD. If you want to build your martial artists for the Champions Universe setting, then you'll want a SPD of 6-7, with some rare few going as high as 8. It's the tax you have to pay to keep up with the rest of the setting. DEX could fall between 24 and 35, depending on the build.

 

If you want to build more realistically, then 3-4 SPD is what you want to look at, with some rare characters going up to 5. DEX could be between 15 and 24.

 

"Significant DEX and SPD inflation" and "more realistically" is your take on it. Many people agree with you, many people don't (on these boards and not). Share your opinion freely, and those of us who disagree will share ours equally freely. Vive la difference!

[dunion]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

To me this may miss the point. If you define that 'human max' in your campaign is 'x' (whatever that is, say 20 dex and 4 speed) then that's the best a non-super martial artist can get no matter how much training. To make a martial artist that can fight with the 'big boys' with that limitation you need perhaps 'lightening reflexes' and lots of levels, and that's what represents more 'skill' anyway.

 

The other thing is to create a set of powers to represent martial art strikes - some 'real' and some can push the boundaries (or be outright mystical martial arts abilities, as desired) depending on the campaign and the character desired.

 

Does the GM allow a martial artist to 'go beyond human norms' and still not be called a super-human or paranormal? That's up the the GM.

 

There have always been the 'high dex/speed' martial arts types. To some degree spiderman is that.. high dex/speed and reflexes, not so much stylized combat traing... then there are the batman or asian or occidental martial arts types that rely specifically on training and have human level stats.

 

One option is to decide that human 'peak' is a bit over 20 - but that normally only someone can sustain that with constant practice at the peak ages of their life... then for a few years, as long as the character plays the obsessive workout nut, they can be a bit higher than 'human norm'. The downside is they'll miss stuff sometimes because they're off working out, and it won't work for long-term campaigns barring the 'cosmic event' that suddenly gives them powers - or perhaps just extraordinary characteristics ... but this too is a common plotline...

[Peregrine]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

To me this may miss the point. If you define that 'human max' in your campaign is 'x' (whatever that is, say 20 dex and 4 speed) then that's the best a non-super martial artist can get no matter how much training. To make a martial artist that can fight with the 'big boys' with that limitation you need perhaps 'lightening reflexes' and lots of levels, and that's what represents more 'skill' anyway.

 

The other thing is to create a set of powers to represent martial art strikes - some 'real' and some can push the boundaries (or be outright mystical martial arts abilities, as desired) depending on the campaign and the character desired.

 

Does the GM allow a martial artist to 'go beyond human norms' and still not be called a super-human or paranormal? That's up the the GM.

 

There have always been the 'high dex/speed' martial arts types. To some degree spiderman is that.. high dex/speed and reflexes, not so much stylized combat traing... then there are the batman or asian or occidental martial arts types that rely specifically on training and have human level stats.

 

One option is to decide that human 'peak' is a bit over 20 - but that normally only someone can sustain that with constant practice at the peak ages of their life... then for a few years, as long as the character plays the obsessive workout nut, they can be a bit higher than 'human norm'. The downside is they'll miss stuff sometimes because they're off working out, and it won't work for long-term campaigns barring the 'cosmic event' that suddenly gives them powers - or perhaps just extraordinary characteristics ... but this too is a common plotline...

 

The problem I have with this is the assumption that a martial artist in a supers campaign cannot exceed human max. This is directly contrary to the comics themselves, as well as a large body of martial arts movies; in both, peak trained martial artists are clearly superhuman (generally speaking; I admit the existence of exceptions).

 

Thus, I would recommend that MA in a supers game should have the second-highest DEX and SPD, behind DEX/SPD based speedsters (as distinguished from movement-based speedsters, see Ult Speedster for further details). This, of course, would vary based on the benchmarks for your campaign, but I would definitely recommend (using CU terms) Legendary to Superheroic DEX/SPD (DEX>>20 and SPD>>4).

[JmOz]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

The Champions Universe is built with significant DEX & SPD inflation. Characters with no reason to be out of the norm outpace NCM regularly in both DEX and SPD. If you want to build your martial artists for the Champions Universe setting, then you'll want a SPD of 6-7, with some rare few going as high as 8. It's the tax you have to pay to keep up with the rest of the setting. DEX could fall between 24 and 35, depending on the build.

 

If you want to build more realistically, then 3-4 SPD is what you want to look at, with some rare characters going up to 5. DEX could be between 15 and 24.

 

Inflated from WHAT: 1st edition we had a Martial Artist w/ Dex 35 and Speed 7

[bwdemon]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

"Significant DEX and SPD inflation" and "more realistically" is your take on it. Many people agree with you' date=' many people don't (on these boards and not). Share your opinion freely, and those of us who disagree will share ours equally freely. [i']Vive la difference![/i]

 

When NCM says "20 DEX, 4 SPD" and the baseline character has "23 DEX, 5 SPD" then you're looking at inflation. It's artificially increased to make heroes faster and more combat-capable than agents and the like.

 

From the past threads, I can't recall too many people arguing that it wasn't inflation, only that they didn't mind it.

[bwdemon]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Inflated from WHAT: 1st edition we had a Martial Artist w/ Dex 35 and Speed 7

 

It wasn't inflation from edition to edition. It's institutionalized inflation from the very beginning.

 

As a side question, who was the 35/7 DEX character from 1st edition? I think I remember a 30/7 character, but not a 35 until the later editions?

[Trebuchet]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

f you want to build more realistically' date=' then 3-4 SPD is what you want to look at, with some rare characters going up to 5. DEX could be between 15 and 24.[/quote']He specifically asked for superheroic martial artists stats. Since trained normals such as cops and soldiers will likely have SPD 3 and elite normal humans such as SEALs, agents, "real world" class martial artists and the like will probably have SPD 4, then a super MA needs to be one or two SPD beyond that at minimum. The super MA should have a SPD at least one higher than the team average and possibly more. I wouldn't dream of building a PC MA for a 350 point Champions with less than SPD 6 and a DEX of at least 26 to 30. If a lot of team members have SPD 5, then even SPD 7 is not out of line.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

To me, it's not not stat inflation per se - again, it's how do you want the PCs to affect each other *AND* agents/normals?

 

If a 'normal' cop/soldier has 10 DEX, +1 CSL with his favored weapon, and a weapon that also has +1 OCV, he has a 5 OCV with no other modifiers.

 

How often should he hit a super/MA/whoever the target is (with no Range Modifier)? 1 in 2? The target should have a normal DCV of 6. 1 in 4? The target should have a normal DCV of 8. And so on.

 

Also take into account defenses. The brick gets hit often but ususlly shrugs it off? Lower DCV but high Defenes.

 

If the MA/super mows down agents like wheat, then give them the CV and damage advantages they need. If a group of five agents is a credible threat, scale the MA/super stats down.

 

IMO, the basis for stat generation should be how the 'normal' man affects the 'competent' man, and so on up to the top end of the hero scale. Ignoring the 'normal' man and his capabilities leads to out-of-whack upper end abilities.

 

IMO.

[Balabanto]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Yeah, my world has no SPD inflation. The range is 4-6. That's it. Everything else is done with skill levels and power design.

 

You may ask "Why did I do things this way?"

 

It's because that's what the ranges were when I started the game 20 years ago, and the numbers all work, so there's no need to change them.

 

So most martial artists have a SPD of 5 or 6. This may not work for your game, but it works in mine.

[JmOz]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

It wasn't inflation from edition to edition. It's institutionalized inflation from the very beginning.

 

As a side question, who was the 35/7 DEX character from 1st edition? I think I remember a 30/7 character, but not a 35 until the later editions?

 

second point first: Mongoose had 35/7 from Enemies I

 

Before I continue, I should state that I beleive in properly defining a problem before trying to resolve it, this is not an attack on bwdemon, who I do respect but rather a poor attemp to define the core issues (and a bit of a general rant near the bottom)

 

First point part one second: Then it is not inflation, it's an unreal* difference between normal characters and Supers. For it to be inflation it would have to be a constant increase, basicaly the difference between average Supers and average norms would have to be increasing in size, IME there is actualy a deflation currently.

 

I do feel that there has been some inflation, but the inflation is ALOT less than people realise, and as I said above there is currently a deflation IMO

 

First point part 2: As stated above, the actual issue most people complaining about inflation are talking about IME is something more akin to difference in power levels between normals and heroes (or villains). This is a defining element in a lot of comics (But definatly not all of them), that a super even with out his powers are just better than normals, the champs U imitates this. There is nothing wrong about changing the characters to fit your view, but to imply that it is not part of the genre, or that it is somehow wrong is short sighted IMO, different is not better or worse, it's just different. We should strive to respect the different styles of play, realising that a community is formed by different people who will have different views on things.

 

* I find it funny that unreal is used when talking about a game where people fly and shoot laser beams from there forheads...

[bwdemon]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

second point first: Mongoose had 35/7 from Enemies I

Been a long time since I last saw Enemies

 

Then it is not inflation, it's an unreal* difference between normal characters and Supers. For it to be inflation it would have to be a constant increase, basicaly the difference between average Supers and average norms would have to be increasing in size, IME there is actualy a deflation currently.

If I blow up a balloon, it's inflated. Whether or not I put more air into it, it's still inflated. Assuming no air escapes and the material holds up, it can remain inflated, at the same size, perpetually. It's still inflated.

 

In other words, inflation isn't something that has to continue increasing over time. It's something that can happen at some point and never go back down. SPD and DEX were inflated heavily early in the game's construction and they haven't gone down yet. They remain inflated to this day. If you want to build characters for the Champions setting, you have to pay a tax on your character equal to the degree of inflation or else you fall way behind the power curve of the game.

 

As stated above, the actual issue most people complaining about inflation are talking about IME is something more akin to difference in power levels between normals and heroes (or villains). This is a defining element in a lot of comics (But definatly not all of them), that a super even with out his powers are just better than normals, the champs U imitates this.

 

Think about someone like Cyclops. Outside of his eye-blasts, he's just a well-trained normal. He doesn't have physical abilities that put him above, say, a special forces soldier. He's no stronger or faster, no better trained. He should fit under NCM for everything other than his eye-blasts. I don't think the comics have ever (with any consistency, anyway) depicted this otherwise.

 

That isn't the only example, but it makes it very easy to illustrate the concept. Most characters who lack physical powers are no faster or more agile than their normal counterparts. An Olympic gymnast in the comics will be significantly more agile than the host of non-agility-based heroes. In DC Comics, Batman isn't someone who would shame Olympic gymnasts, he's an Olympic-level gymnast (even if gold medal level), and should be statted accordingly. At least one normal human lives who is better than him. He's phenomenal for a human, but he's still human.

 

Champions forgot about that in building its original setting and has maintained that forgetfulness over the years. Now it's an institution: the average non-physically-powered superhero is both faster than NCM and more agile than NCM. It was inflated early on and it remains inflated today. If you want to use the characters from the Champions Universe for your game, you have to inflate your characters similarly or they won't work out well.

 

If you don't want to go that route, you can do away with the inflation and save a ton of points on characters. Or you can accept that every superhero is agile and fast to a mind-boggling degree, regardless of their power set. Your game is your game and you should enjoy it.

[Shaft]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

In my game, I make all PCs SPD 4, except fopr Speedsters who I allow to be SPD 8. It's purely for convenience. My assumption is that every PC character finds the time to train themselves in a danger room, dojo or on-the-job traiing on patrol, or else that their powers bring them in line with what I've defined as "human max" without effort (a psionic who doesn't excercise may use his brain power to optimise his metablosim and reaction time".

 

If someone is a Martial Artist or a concept that requires extra "SPD", I usually have them take Two Weapon Fighting and Rapid HtH, and don't count any negative skill levels that they take with Sweeping or Rapid Fire to count against the OCV caps. The end result is a character who can do two "attacks" without penalty on 3, 6, 9 and 12.

 

I will make a tough villain SPD 5, or even SPD 6 if they are meant to take on an entire group, but most supervillains are the same SPD as the PCs.

 

Thug level mooks are usually SPD 2, thugs with a bit more training are SPD 3, and standout "normals" can be SPD 4.

 

Mind you, my games tend to be on the grittier side of things. I allow my PCs to take Normal Characteristic Maxima and don't count the 20 pts it gives against the disad cap (ie, you can take 150 pts in disads, or you can take Nor Char Max and have 170 pts in disads). On the other hand, my games are not the kinds where PCs swarm through crowds of mooks, though they can certainly take on 3, 4 or 5 to one odds with tactics and thinking.

 

This is just the way I run my games. YMMV.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

Before I continue, I should state that I beleive in properly defining a problem before trying to resolve it, this is not an attack on bwdemon, who I do respect but rather a poor attemp to define the core issues (and a bit of a general rant near the bottom)

 

First point part one second: Then it is not inflation, it's an unreal* difference between normal characters and Supers. For it to be inflation it would have to be a constant increase, basicaly the difference between average Supers and average norms would have to be increasing in size, IME there is actualy a deflation currently.

 

I tend to agree that it's not inflation. We had 35 DEX, 7 SPD MA's in 1st ED and we have 35 DEX 7 SPD MA's now.

 

First point part 2: As stated above' date=' the actual issue most people complaining about inflation are talking about IME is something more akin to difference in power levels between normals and heroes (or villains). This is a defining element in a lot of comics (But definatly not all of them), that a super even with out his powers are just better than normals, the champs U imitates this. There is nothing wrong about changing the characters to fit your view, but to imply that it is not part of the genre, or that it is somehow wrong is short sighted IMO, different is not better or worse, it's just different. We should strive to respect the different styles of play, realising that a community is formed by different people who will have different views on things. [/quote']

 

To me, much of the problem arises from the manner in which Hero evolved. In 1e Champions, we started with the presumption that an average normal had 10 DEX and 2 SPD. We then had example Supers who ranged from 18 to 35 DEX and 4 to 7 SPD. That set the bar for "Super Baseline". This gives rise to two issues.

 

First, from the outset, every Super had a SPD and DEX well above the baseline for a normal human. If those initial sample characters had been presented with, say DEXes from 8 to 26, with a norm of, say, 14 instead of 23, the spread between their CV's would have been the same, but Supers would have had a much reduced CV advantage against normals and agents. "How can something that big move that fast" would then be interpreted as "How is it that his bulk doesn't make him slower than a normal human" instead of "Hey, EVERY Super is was faster than a normal human".

 

Second, 1e had "baseline" human stats, but no guidance as to the upper edge of "pure human". The only real guidance was MA's like Mongoose and Green Dragon who had no superhuman powers, but DEX 30-35 and SPD 6-7. When Danger International came along and defined normal humans as almost never exceeding DEX 20 and SPD 4, that started the problem for "normal human martial artists". Enfolding the genres into a single system exacerbated the issue.

 

I don't see the problem. There are lots of "normal human" Supers in the comics. They are all very able to dodge the bullets of thugs and agents, and even the blows of their superpowered adversaries and allies, and to act and react quickly. They are a tiny percentage of the human population. By genre, they are "top of the line" DEX and SPD compared to other Supers. Clearly, in the Supers genre, normal humans with extreme training can reach the same levels of DEX and SPD as most or all Superhumans.

 

* I find it funny that unreal is used when talking about a game where people fly and shoot laser beams from there forheads...

 

It's about as amusing as complaints of an "unrealistic" magic system in fantasy games. Both "realistic superheroes" and "realistic magic" are oxymorons in my books. Mind you, at least it's possible to have realistic magic (though heroically saving the world by pulling a rabbit out of a hat or identifying which card the archvillain pulled from the deck seems unlikely at best...).

[Bloodstone]

Re: SPD and DEX for superheroic martial artists?

 

It's not always a "realistic" thing so much as an internal consistency thing.

 

Some people want to play a relatively normal guy that has a radiation accident and gains powers. Or some geeky super scientist who invents a gizmo that helps him fight crime. Or a wheel chair bound mentalist that just happens to be the most powerful telepath on the planet. Or whatever.

 

The problem is if your powers don't include exceptional training of some kind or some type of superhuman speed or agility, there is no reason why putting on spandex suddenly increases your DEX 10 to 15 points higher than Joe Normal. Yet that seems to be what happens with many characters and I think that is what people take issue with.

 

Mind you, it's quite arguable if that is an accurate emulation of the genre or not, since different writers and editors do things different ways... I can certainly cite plenty of examples of it going both ways.