Vehicles, halving already negative DCVs?

[Cancer]

The Champions team has accumulated enough pooled XP's so we can afford a VTOL aircraft to transport us all, maybe. That leads to yet another silly rules question from someone who's never thought much about building vehicles before ...

 

There's an old Rule Question thread bearing on the situation of modifying a negative DCV (here) saying that the worst DCV a character can end up with is zero.

 

Does this same statement apply to large vehicles (like jet aircraft)? If so, then the negative base DCV (when you build one) for these things really means how much DEX you must build into the thing before it matters, and/or how many Combat Piloting SL's the pilot has to have before any meaningful evasive maneuvers can be performed with it?

 

Seems like for any plausible vehicle, that sort of makes Combat Piloting worthless, since you'll need to spend a dozen or two character points before any possible benefit can be realized. Alternately, your vehicle will consume scores more character points in construction than originally imagined before it's anything but a Big Fat Target.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Vehicles, halving already negative DCVs?

 

I would tend to say that an object that is larger than a hex can have negative DCV...it's pretty easy to hit the broad side of a barn.

[Cancer]

Re: Vehicles, halving already negative DCVs?

 

Well, I didn't follow up on the thing that triggered my first post. If you accept a negative base DCV at face value, then as written you're better off with an untrained shlub at pilot, because the vehicle is half DCV in that situation. And (for example), of course, taking half of a base DCV of -4 is -2.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Vehicles, halving already negative DCVs?

 

Well' date=' I didn't follow up on the thing that triggered my first post. If you accept a negative base DCV at face value, then as written you're better off with an untrained shlub at pilot, because the vehicle is half DCV in that situation. And (for example), of course, taking half of a base DCV of -4 is -2.[/quote']That doesn't sound right. Can you cite the rules that states that?

[Talon]

Re: Vehicles, halving already negative DCVs?

 

I use older Hero rules and treat size-based DCV modifiers as separate from DCV to avoid just this sort of thing (and because I agree that it's easier to hit a stationary barn than a stationary ant).

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Vehicles, halving already negative DCVs?

 

Well' date=' I didn't follow up on the thing that triggered my first post. If you accept a negative base DCV at face value, then as written you're better off with an untrained shlub at pilot, because the vehicle is half DCV in that situation. And (for example), of course, taking half of a base DCV of -4 is -2.[/quote']

 

I wouldn't allow halving a negative DCV as a penalty. If anything, it should be doubled.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Vehicles, halving already negative DCVs?

 

Since Steve made that ruling, I've been treating the size-based Negative DCV modifiers below 0 as applying to Penalties to an attack, e.g. for Range, Maneuvers, or (when it wouldn't be too unbalancing) Hit Locations. Assuming that seems reasonable to you, I would suggest applying the same formula that Steve described in the question thread you linked to for Halving OCV, to increase the DCV penalty, and the evasive maneuvers by its driver/pilot to reducing them.

[Vanguard]

Re: Vehicles, halving already negative DCVs?

 

What we do is use relative size when comparing vehicles and using them in battles.

 

If, for example, you have a Viper and a Raider dog-fighting, since they're nearly the same size they don't suffer the DCV modifiers for size. That gets us around having to have gobs and gobs of Skill Levels and outrageous levels of Dexes for both the Fighters and the Pilots.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Vehicles, halving already negative DCVs?

 

pick one:

 

-3 DCV to any target with negative DCV that is in a situation that would halve their DCV

 

or

 

Double the (negative) DCV of any target with negative DCV in a situation that would halve their DCV

[Cancer]

Re: Vehicles, halving already negative DCVs?

 

Point of clarification: I'm not concerned about vehicle-vs-vehicle combat yet, though that's the next thing to think about. It's a Champions campaign, and the vehicle in question is a VTOL jet. Since the team lacks flyers or speedsters, I anticipate us using this as team transport. Presumably it will occur to some villainous type energy blaster, or volkswagen-throwing brick, to take potshots at us while we're en route. I want to build the vehicle (and the character who'll be flying it) so we have at least a sporting chance of dodging that kind of flak, as we come in for the Air Cav sort of team drop.

 

Right now there's NO plans to arm the aircraft (though it might be armored), so I'm not immediately concerned with OCV, but DCV is something else.

 

Treb, I'll look in my 5eR to find the bit about operations by someone without Combat Piloting skill resulting in half DCV, but that won't happen for at least 12 hours.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Vehicles, halving already negative DCVs?

 

See what happens if you halve the Vehicle's DCV before you figure in the modifier for Size instead of after.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Vehicles, halving already negative DCVs?

 

See what happens if you halve the Vehicle's DCV before you figure in the modifier for Size instead of after.

This is what I would do as well. I would figure Size modifiers last, and exempt them from the general rule that DCVs can't go below zero. So for example, if a vehicle's DCV was halved to 2, and the vehicle had a -3 Size mod, its final DCV would be -1. (Or its DCV would be zero, and anyone attacking it would get a +1 OCV, if it makes more sense to think of it that way.)

[Cancer]

Re: Vehicles, halving already negative DCVs?

 

I'll try that, though the idea caught me by surprise, since when building a vehicle (just as in building a base) the first thing you do is pick the size, which brings in the Size modifier right at the very front of the process.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Vehicles, halving already negative DCVs?

 

I'll try that' date=' though the idea caught me by surprise, since when building a vehicle (just as in building a base) the first thing you do is pick the size, which brings in the Size modifier right at the very front of the process.[/quote']

 

While this much is true, the Size Modifier should be the final thing you figure in for DCV -- or, at any rate, after anthing like halving.

[babbitt]

Re: Vehicles, halving already negative DCVs?

 

In my albeit limited, experience large vehicle DCVs are largely offset by range modifiers. In my battletech game, the players have needed targeting computers and Delta skill levels to hit one another at even the most limited ranges.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Vehicles, halving already negative DCVs?

 

I change the order of the DCV computation for halving, putting it after bonuses but before penalties. So, for example, if a character with base DCV 4 and -8 in size penalties gets half DCV'd, you halve the 4 then apply the -8, so he'd go from -4 to -6.

[pinecone]

Re: Vehicles, halving already negative DCVs?

 

I wouldn't allow halving a negative DCV as a penalty. If anything' date=' it should be doubled.[/quote']

 

Yeah thats how I do it...if its -2 DCV sitting it's -4 when wallowing around doing what ever....

[pinecone]

Re: Vehicles, halving already negative DCVs?

 

I change the order of the DCV computation for halving' date=' putting it after bonuses but before penalties. So, for example, if a character with base DCV 4 and -8 in size penalties gets half DCV'd, you halve the 4 then apply the -8, so he'd go from -4 to -6.[/quote']

 

That sounds fair as well...

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Vehicles, halving already negative DCVs?

 

It sounds weird, but people can miss the broad side of a barn. I would run it thus:

 

For halving the DCV due to an incompetent pilot, I agree with Crosshair Collie -- halve it before you reduce the DCV according to size.

 

For negative DCVs, I'd play as Lord Liaden and babbitt have suggested. If the vehicle's DCV is reduced below 0 due to size modifiers, then its effective DCV is 0. However, all size modifiers are applied against range modifiers -- so if your 747 has a -6 DCV, it's at 0 DCV -- but out to 32 hexes, the attacker has no range penalty. Each range bracket beyond that (64, 128, etc.) accumulates the usual -2 OCV penalty. Alternately, if you're inside that 64 meter zone, and you try something that rips YOUR OCV, then the target's size acts as a counterbalance to your CV penalties. Negative DCV = 'Penalty Skill Levels vs. Range, etc.'

 

Man, if I'm in a fighter jet and I can't hit a bloody 747 when it's only 200 feet away from me, I need to go back to flight school ...