What if: Japan won World War 2?

[megaplayboy]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

Losing badly at Midway(and having the Hornet discovered and sunk while attempting the Doolittle raid) would have meant putting the island-hopping strategy on hold for at least a year, maybe two years--Japanese naval supremacy would preclude going on the offensive. Instead, the emphasis would have shifted to securing Hawaii, Panama and the West Coast Ports until the naval balance of power could be reversed.

 

Japan presumably would try to capitalize on its advantages, probably securing the oil and rubber they needed. They'd still face a steel shortage, but perhaps that could be overcome by cutting a deal with the USSR in '44 or so.

If the European theater was longer and bloodier, and the Manhattan project was delayed or non-existent, then public sentiment might force a peace deal upon the US President by 1944 or '46.

[MilkmanDan]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

It's a matter of logistics. It doesn't matter if the Japanese take out the U.S. carriers at Midway. More will come. The U.S. commissioned something like 20 fleet carriers between 1943-1945, and cancelled a number more because the war ended. That's not including light and escort carriers, of which there were a bunch more. The Japanese commissioned I think two or three new fleet carriers total post-war, all of which were shortly sunk or never used. The Japanese, as an island nation, don't have the resources at home to build a large fleet to control the seas, and without control of the seas, they can't safely bring home enough resources to build a large fleet. They don't have easy access to oil, and they just don't have enough bodies to fill their infantry to have a chance to win. In the sort of total war you have in WWII, you need to have enough national resources to direct to your war effort, and Japan just doesn't have that. Also recall that the U.S. was directing 10% of its war effort towards Japan--if the U.S. fleet is sunk at Midway, that will be enough of a wake-up call that resources will be shifted from Europe to the Pacific, and, instead of 20 carriers in 43-45, you'll have 60 or 70. The U.S. has both the raw materials and the bodies available to do that.

 

If Japan is going to beat the U.S., you need to have Japanese superheroes doing it, because superpowered beings is the only way to overcome the massive logistical deficiencies between the countries.

[megaplayboy]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

It's a matter of logistics. It doesn't matter if the Japanese take out the U.S. carriers at Midway. More will come. The U.S. commissioned something like 20 fleet carriers between 1943-1945, and cancelled a number more because the war ended. That's not including light and escort carriers, of which there were a bunch more. The Japanese commissioned I think two or three new fleet carriers total post-war, all of which were shortly sunk or never used. The Japanese, as an island nation, don't have the resources at home to build a large fleet to control the seas, and without control of the seas, they can't safely bring home enough resources to build a large fleet. They don't have easy access to oil, and they just don't have enough bodies to fill their infantry to have a chance to win. In the sort of total war you have in WWII, you need to have enough national resources to direct to your war effort, and Japan just doesn't have that. Also recall that the U.S. was directing 10% of its war effort towards Japan--if the U.S. fleet is sunk at Midway, that will be enough of a wake-up call that resources will be shifted from Europe to the Pacific, and, instead of 20 carriers in 43-45, you'll have 60 or 70. The U.S. has both the raw materials and the bodies available to do that.

 

If Japan is going to beat the U.S., you need to have Japanese superheroes doing it, because superpowered beings is the only way to overcome the massive logistical deficiencies between the countries.

 

 

That's why I posited one scenario with FDR never being president, no naval buildup in the 30s, and the Depression having never really ended.

 

But Japan built at least a dozen more carriers from 1942 to 1945, of which at least 6 were fleet carriers. And that was under difficult circumstances which would likely be more favorable in the event of historical/logistical changes. Loss of Hawaii would tend to offset a lot of American advantages, too--if they had to keep going back to the continental US for repairs and refits, that would be a huge problem.

[MilkmanDan]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

Japan laid down that many hulls, but didn't finish the ships. Many of the carriers were only partially complete when they were either destroyed by air attack or the war ended. Also, the building projects were started earlier; a quick bit of research shows me the latest a hull was laid down was 1943. At that point, there just weren't enough resources left to make new ships.

 

As for the Depression, the war will take care of that regardless. Most of the 30s naval buildup winds up being used to just slow down the Japanese until the weight of the U.S. logistical buildup starts to take place in 1943, so I think the end result of the lack of that winds up being the Japanese run wild a bit longer.

 

I do think it is possible to have Japan win the Pacific war, just not our world's Japan. You need a Japan with a very large continental presence. Perhaps they absorb a chunk of Siberia after the Russo-Japanese War, and then China (for the heck of it) joins the Central Powers in WWI. Japan invades China in 1915 or so, manages impressive territorial gains, and keeps them after the war ends. Then you have a significant presence on the mainland with access to some resources (though I'm guessing you still have oil problems). Maybe move back the China conquest a couple decades back for some other reason and have people accept that the mainland is indeed part of Japan, giving them more manpower willing to fight for the Empire. Add all that in, maybe you have a chance.

[pinecone]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

The only portion of history I think has been overlooked is...the declaration of war with the US. IF Japan had been sucessfull at declaring prior to the attack on Peal harbor Then the US and Japan might have reached a negiotiated peace....That doesn't help with the west coast being Japanes...but It might have made it possable for Japan to have remained intact.

 

Maybe the US make a seperate peace with Japan (back stabbibg Britan, but it Might have happened) And Japan anexes a big chunk of South America? That seems more likely to me...???

[pinecone]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

Oh, and if Japan and the US are freindly (ish) how about the "Patton heads East" senario with Japan hitting Siberia? (Both countrys not favoring communism...)

[FenrisUlf]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

The only portion of history I think has been overlooked is...the declaration of war with the US. IF Japan had been sucessfull at declaring prior to the attack on Peal harbor Then the US and Japan might have reached a negiotiated peace....That doesn't help with the west coast being Japanes...but It might have made it possable for Japan to have remained intact.

 

Maybe the US make a seperate peace with Japan (back stabbibg Britan, but it Might have happened) And Japan anexes a big chunk of South America? That seems more likely to me...???

 

Hmm, maybe. I've read that the Japanese expat community in Brazil was fervently loyal to the militarists. Maybe they could have pulled something (not very likely, but we are talking Champions here).

[OddHat]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

How about this: A deadly alliance forms between Anime geeks, Furries, Fan-Fic Writers, LARPers, CosPlayers, the bondage underground, and biological researchers at the U of C, Berkley. A party drug is released in 2003, intended to temporarily convince the user that he is his / her favorite Anime character or online RPG persona, but it all goes horribly wrong. Now, four years later, all of California is dominated by deranged cosplayers and Nihonjin-wanabees, idiots who think that Manga gives a realistic picture of daily Japanese life. And, of course, thanks to the bizarre powers granted by the drug, Manga and Anime really are an accurate picture of life on America's West Coast. San Francisco is a battleground for masked lunatics in power armor, robots and giant monsters, Los Angeles a hentai hell hole, southern California a series of genre-islands each stranger than the last.

 

All in all, most Californians consider the situation an improvement.

[Korvar]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

If you're more focussed on the result - Japanised West Coast - then you could always go to the old Cyberpunk trope where America's economy broke some time in the 80s, and the Tiger Economy of the Japanese came in. Or an exaggerated version of the "OMG!! Japan's buying America!!!111one" that was quite popular in the 90s (the film or book "Rising Sun", amongst others).

[pinecone]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

How about this: A deadly alliance forms between Anime geeks, Furries, Fan-Fic Writers, LARPers, CosPlayers, the bondage underground, and biological researchers at the U of C, Berkley. A party drug is released in 2003, intended to temporarily convince the user that he is his / her favorite Anime character or online RPG persona, but it all goes horribly wrong. Now, four years later, all of California is dominated by deranged cosplayers and Nihonjin-wanabees, idiots who think that Manga gives a realistic picture of daily Japanese life. And, of course, thanks to the bizarre powers granted by the drug, Manga and Anime really are an accurate picture of life on America's West Coast. San Francisco is a battleground for masked lunatics in power armor, robots and giant monsters, Los Angeles a hentai hell hole, southern California a series of genre-islands each stranger than the last.

 

All in all, most Californians consider the situation an improvement.

 

Or don't really notice much of a change..

[tribe]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

What the world would look like afterwards is arbitrary. The Japanese couldn't have "realistically" conquered Australia, for instance, but might have been able to in a superheroic setting.

 

It's a matter of taste, in other words. Decide what you want, and declare it to be so.

 

Parts of Australia may have been 'annexed' and developed by the Japanese in a Champions-style resolution to WWII. They could have taken, say, north-western areas of Western Australia which aren't heavily populated or easily defended. After the war is resolved through a treaty or whatever, Japan insists on retaining its new colonies stretching all the way down to this area of Australia. It wouldn't really change much of Australia apart from having to share its 'island nation' with another country which could lead to future conflict.

 

This is a fantasy premise, of course, and like most people have said Japan would have been very hard-pressed to win the war.

[Mark Rand]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

Parts of Australia may have been 'annexed' and developed by the Japanese in a Champions-style resolution to WWII. They could have taken, say, north-western areas of Western Australia which aren't heavily populated or easily defended. After the war is resolved through a treaty or whatever, Japan insists on retaining its new colonies stretching all the way down to this area of Australia. It wouldn't really change much of Australia apart from having to share its 'island nation' with another country which could lead to future conflict.

 

This is a fantasy premise, of course, and like most people have said Japan would have been very hard-pressed to win the war.

 

True. The assumption is that it did happen. I suspect that, by now, there would be the equivalent of the British Commonwealth of Nations.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

True. The assumption is that it did happen. I suspect that' date=' bu now, there would be the equivalent of the British Commonwealth of Nations.[/quote']

 

But if the Japanese militarists were in charge (and if they won the war, why would they be removed from power?) it'd be run far more savagely and brutally than Britain ever did with its colonies.

[Mark Rand]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

But if the Japanese militarists were in charge (and if they won the war' date=' why would they be removed from power?) it'd be run far more savagely and brutally than Britain ever did with its colonies.[/quote']

 

You're probably right.

 

What kind of government would the United States have then and what kind of culture would we have? (The campaign city is in southwest Washington state.)

[Clonus]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

What kind of government do you want the US to have? I think the most extreme possible case for a Japanese victory is "The United States yields Hawaii, and has some very unfavourable trade terms imposed on it." It might be amusing to have a coastal city run by the Japanese ala British Hong Kong.

[Mike W]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

Japan couldn't win, per se. But if it hadn't been for the atomic bomb, taking Japan would have been so incredibly expensive for the US(especially in terms of lives lost) that Japan might have been able to force a draw based on our unwillingness to lose the massive number of men it would have taken to conquor the main islands of Japan.

 

Now, if we had taken Japan without the A-bomb:

 

women's rights get sped up and we see a lot more women in the workforce, even in traditional "male" jobs much earlier because there would have been a lot less men coming home to reclaim jobs they had left.

 

The US probably has much less of a Marshall plan and has to take a lot longer to rebuild Japan because of the drain on our economy. We also would have been much more likely to press for war crimes trials against some members of the Japanese military for the POW camps they were running.

 

The US economy, while still the largest in the world, takes a lot longer time to accelerate. We also probably stay out of Korea and/or Vietnam which gives the Russians a better showing in the Cold War. Whether Reagan is able to win the Cold War in the same way is debatable. Probably the strategy will work, but Reagan may not be able to "finish the job". It may fall to a later president to get it done. Assuming of course, that we still have the same run of presidents.

 

If Japan gets a "draw":

 

There is a radical change in the run of presidents. Truman loses in '48 because he didn't win the war against Japan. And Eisenhower never gets elected because people don't want reminders of the war they couldn't win, even though Ike was the European commander. We probably win Korea much more handily and maybe Vietnam because we're trying to "make up for not beating Japan" and get far more aggressive in our military strategy(either that or our psyche is damaged enough that we stay out entirely, it would depend on who the president was at the time).

 

Furthermore, since Japan isn't conquored, they might get to keep some of the territory that they had taken. Can you picture the world if Japan controlled eastern China?

 

In either case, staying out of Vietnam would radically alter the

1960s and the baby boom generation(which might be small enough that you wouldn't even call them the baby boomers). The long term effects of staying out of Vietnam are staggering - including the possiblity of Clinton never getting elected.

[Mark Rand]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

What kind of government do you want the US to have? I think the most extreme possible case for a Japanese victory is "The United States yields Hawaii' date=' and has some very unfavourable trade terms imposed on it." It might be amusing to have a coastal city run by the Japanese ala British Hong Kong.[/quote']

 

I was hoping for a Japanese version of the British Commonwealth of Nations, but I'm not going to insist on that.

 

I do, however, want the United States to have Japanese traditions and culture and having it loose World War II to Japan seemed the best way to do it.

[assault]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

I do' date=' however, want the United States to have Japanese traditions and culture and having it loose World War II to Japan seemed the best way to do it.[/quote']

 

There are other ways, of course.

 

Let's see, Japan doesn't go into its isolationist period in the 17th Century, builds ships, and settles California, Hawaii and various islands. Somehow, it manages to keep vaguely competitive with the European powers. I'm not sure how that would have worked "realistically", but realism is optional in this context.

 

This results in the western bits of what is in our world the US having a culture with a heavy Japanese overlay, along with Mexican and "American" influences.

 

Or something like that.

[OddHat]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

I was hoping for a Japanese version of the British Commonwealth of Nations, but I'm not going to insist on that.

 

I do, however, want the United States to have Japanese traditions and culture and having it loose World War II to Japan seemed the best way to do it.

 

Why not just set your game in Japan?

 

If you want a mix of Americans and Japanese, American Culture and Japanese Culture, they already have it. Increasing the number of Americans (if for some reason you want to) is trivial. Much easier than finding ways for Japan to rule America's West Coast without getting silly.

 

For that matter, didn't you once do a campaign with Slayer Ninja Jedi trained by Batman? If that will pass muster with your players, waving your hand and declaring "America is Japanese; just go with it" is nothing.

[MilkmanDan]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

I was hoping for a Japanese version of the British Commonwealth of Nations, but I'm not going to insist on that.

 

I do, however, want the United States to have Japanese traditions and culture and having it loose World War II to Japan seemed the best way to do it.

 

It's just a tough concept. Japan doesn't have enough resources or bodies to beat the U.S., so you need to go back a couple centuries and have an expansionist Japan settling large portions of the Pacific and, instead of treating those people as colonies or subjects, actually getting them to agree to be citizens.

 

OK, how about the Japanese initially settle Alaska in the 18th Century, and build up a considerable population along the panhandle. Allied with Napoleonic France, Japan attacks Canada in the early 19th century and manages to conquer a swath of territory, as a hard-pressed Britain simply cannot afford to support the Yukon and western territories. Britain suffers a series of major setbacks on land in Europe, Canada can't muster enough troops to defend its western frontier, and Japan is awarded significant chunks of the Western coast of Canada. Japanese culture spreads widely throughout that section of Canada and, being that Washington is so far from the cultural centers of the U.S. in the 19th century, Japanese culture becomes a significant part of life in Seattle and the Pacific Northwest.

 

Not going to give you a perfect background, but it's a vaguely plausible to get some significant Japanese influence up there. Maybe slow down the development of railroads so that you don't have an easy path of migration westward.

 

Alternative history is fun.

[Mark Rand]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

It's just a tough concept. Japan doesn't have enough resources or bodies to beat the U.S., so you need to go back a couple centuries and have an expansionist Japan settling large portions of the Pacific and, instead of treating those people as colonies or subjects, actually getting them to agree to be citizens.

 

OK, how about the Japanese initially settle Alaska in the 18th Century, and build up a considerable population along the panhandle. Allied with Napoleonic France, Japan attacks Canada in the early 19th century and manages to conquer a swath of territory, as a hard-pressed Britain simply cannot afford to support the Yukon and western territories. Britain suffers a series of major setbacks on land in Europe, Canada can't muster enough troops to defend its western frontier, and Japan is awarded significant chunks of the Western coast of Canada. Japanese culture spreads widely throughout that section of Canada and, being that Washington is so far from the cultural centers of the U.S. in the 19th century, Japanese culture becomes a significant part of life in Seattle and the Pacific Northwest.

 

Not going to give you a perfect background, but it's a vaguely plausible to get some significant Japanese influence up there. Maybe slow down the development of railroads so that you don't have an easy path of migration westward.

 

Alternative history is fun.

 

Very cool idea. Repped.

[megaplayboy]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

What about something simple, like: Japan discovers huge iron ore and oil deposits in Korea and Manchuria in the 30s, relieving them of dependence on the US for oil and steel. Consequently, the Japanese war machine is better equipped to keep pace with its war effort. A cabal of Japanese super-geniuses works hard at developing superweapons to aid its covert campaign to rule the Pacific and Eastasia. In 1941 the superweapons are deployed and rapidly destroy the American and British Pacific fleets, and the ground bases in the area fall quickly as well. What are the superweapons? Well, a number of options present themselves:

1. superships, such as those in the Naval Ops series for Playstation 2.

(submarine battleships, giant carriers, twin hull monster battleships, battlecarriers, giant flying bombers, etc.)

2. Giant mecha or giant monsters under some kind of radio control.

3. superhumans or superhuman martial artists.

4. summoned gods/legendary heroes(similar to the David Brin story about the Germans summoning the Asgardians)

 

The superweapons are so powerful that Japan is actually able to invade and occupy about 10 American states on the West Coast, before the US develops a nuclear deterrent(and the Japanese follow suit shortly thereafter) and an armistice is reached.

[CorPse]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

Read the following book.

 

The Man in the High Castle, by Phillip K. Dick.

 

Yes, Phil's best I think.

[yamamura]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

I don't have it in front of me at the moment but in the book Victory of the Rising Sun (iirc the title) has it such that Japan could actually won in two version otherwise most of it was just a lengthening of the war. In the two version one involved them attacking the Philippines instead of Pearl and isolationistic policy winning out. In the second no Pearl what so ever and Japan opening a second major front in Russia. My advice get the book and take a look over it.

[alexraccoon]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

I don't have it in front of me at the moment but in the book Victory of the Rising Sun (iirc the title) has it such that Japan could actually won in two version otherwise most of it was just a lengthening of the war. In the two version one involved them attacking the Philippines instead of Pearl and isolationistic policy winning out. In the second no Pearl what so ever and Japan opening a second major front in Russia. My advice get the book and take a look over it.

 

 

Rising Sun Victorious: The Alternative History of How the Japanese Won the Pacific War

by Peter Tsouras (Editor), G. Tsouras (Introduction)