What if: Japan won World War 2?

[Mark Rand]

What if World War 2 ended differently, with Japan winning while Italy and Germany lost.

 

In both history and culture, how would the world differ?

[megaplayboy]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

How would they win? The US carriers, refueling facilities etc also hit at Pearl Harbor , followed by successful invasion of Hawaii in mid-1942, and then destruction of the Panama Canal and US ports on the West Coast by late 1942; instigation of rebellion against the British in India, along with destruction of organized Chinese resistance by 1943; and, finally, surprise development and deployment of an atomic bomb in 1944(a year ahead of the US). The Allies, faced with a war more costly than any possible benefit, negotiate an armistice in 1945, shortly after the US develops its own A-bomb. In the postwar world, there are 3 superpowers: the US, the USSR, and the Empire of Japan. An open democratic nation, a totalitarian regime, and a fascist/militarist state.

 

The EOJ might have control over all of Oceania(including Australia) and the Far East, excluding perhaps India.

[MilkmanDan]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

There's absolutely no way Japan could have won WWII. As for the A-bomb, Japan (A) didn't have the resources available to do that kind of resources, and ( didn't have any kind of valid delivery mechanism. Couldn't have happened. There's no way they could have produced enough ships or infantry bodies to beat the U.S. in any way.

[Balabanto]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

Read the following book.

 

The Man in the High Castle, by Phillip K. Dick.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

There's absolutely no way Japan could have won WWII. As for the A-bomb' date=' Japan (A) didn't have the resources available to do that kind of resources, and ( didn't have any kind of valid delivery mechanism. Couldn't have happened. There's no way they could have produced enough ships or infantry bodies to beat the U.S. in any way.[/quote']I agree totally. The US whipped Japan with only 20% of our war effort; and even then the Japanese were on the defensive from mid-1942 on. IOW, they went on the defensive after their devastating loss at Midway in June 1942 - seven months after Pearl Harbor almost to the day.

 

Short of aliens or time travellers giving them advanced weapons or some sort of other deus ex machina, there's no plausible way to secure Japanese victory in World War 2.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

How about if Germany decided to spread its A-bomb research around so it wouldn't be a total loss if they lost a facility to the Allies? They sneak some scientists and uranium to Japan on a U-Boot, and soon afterward radiation leaking into the ocean from A-bomb research awakens a monster that's been in stasis since prehistoric times. Godzilla rampages through the US Pacific Fleet and the Japanese Imperial Fleet without preference, causing both sides to admit the futility of trying to fight with this thing around, and they agree to a cease-fire, creating a demilitarized zone running through the Pacific.

 

Hey, it's in the Champions forum, right?

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

The current strategic thinking on the Pacific War is that Guadalcanal was the "turning point." Win the naval Battle of Guadalcanal and Japan would have been able to resume its drive towards New Caledonia. Take New Caledonia in the first months of 1943, and the direct supply route to Australia is broken. This will curtail the New Guinea campaign. Once Japanese naval forces can operate in the Timor Sea, Darwin will be unavailable as a strategic base, and the Japanese will be able to impose a coastal blockade on Australia.

Next, an offensive into India. And so on. With a war on against Germany as well, the Allies were not in a position to recoup unlimited ground from the Japanese, and the more the Japanese gained from the Allies, the more goods they had to give back in return for peace and an end to the American fiscal blockade.

In short, Tokyo expected the Allies to sue for peace, which is the only way it could win in the last analysis. Granted that happens, Japan would have what it really wanted (a free hand in China and more of Southeast Asia than it could digest). It would offer its good offices to negotiate a peace in Europe --and start selling war munitions to the US and Britain.

Then it would have to fight the Vietnamese War, and live to regret its "victory."

[Yansuf]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

I really don't see anyway the Japanese could win in the sense megaplayboy does, Admiral Yamamoto for one knew that was impossible. The logistics are against them.

But their definition of a win was making a peace treaty with the US that accepted their supremacy in the western pacific. That was possible.

If the Japanese had won at Midway, they might have been able to defeat the US in the south pacific. While it is unlikely that the US would have agreed to a negotiated peace, it is possible.

[mattingly]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

America would be making cheap electronics?

[lemming]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

How about if Germany decided to spread its A-bomb research around so it wouldn't be a total loss if they lost a facility to the Allies? They sneak some scientists and uranium to Japan on a U-Boot, and soon afterward radiation leaking into the ocean from A-bomb research awakens a monster that's been in stasis since prehistoric times. Godzilla rampages through the US Pacific Fleet and the Japanese Imperial Fleet without preference, causing both sides to admit the futility of trying to fight with this thing around, and they agree to a cease-fire, creating a demilitarized zone running through the Pacific.

 

Hey, it's in the Champions forum, right?

The Nazi's were shipping how to Japan, but that sub got intercepted. Going off of memory, I believe the Japanese intent was to not make an actual A-Bomb, but one that spewed radioactive material from one of their weather balloon bombs.

[megaplayboy]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

I really don't see anyway the Japanese could win in the sense megaplayboy does, Admiral Yamamoto for one knew that was impossible. The logistics are against them.

But their definition of a win was making a peace treaty with the US that accepted their supremacy in the western pacific. That was possible.

If the Japanese had won at Midway, they might have been able to defeat the US in the south pacific. While it is unlikely that the US would have agreed to a negotiated peace, it is possible.

 

yes. It would require stupendous good fortune breaking their way--e.g.,Japan decides to adopt a variant of Enigma, so the US doesn't break their code; the entire US Pacific fleet, not just the BBs but the CVs too, are caught unawares on 12/7/41; some mil tech advances further than found historically, It proves harder and more costly to defeat Germany, etc.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

yes. It would require stupendous good fortune breaking their way--e.g.' date='Japan decides to adopt a variant of Enigma, so the US doesn't break their code;[/quote']Since the Allies cracked every version of Enigma before or during the war, that seems unlikely.

the entire US Pacific fleet, not just the BBs but the CVs too, are caught unawares on 12/7/41;

Possible, but that probably would have delayed victory by only a few months. August 1945 still means nuclear weapons become available.

 

Simply put, the American logistical advantage was simply too overwhelming. The fact our technology quickly surpassed the Japanese military's made it even more overwhelming.

[assault]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

Realistically, it wasn't going to happen.

 

There are a few What-Ifs that could have modified the situation. My personal favourite is a massive rebellion against the British in India, causing disruption in the Indian Army, and hence to British military power.

 

This still wouldn't have made a big enough difference.

 

Frankly, I would go with a more fantastic approach. The Godzilla option is attractive, but there are plenty of other nefarious plots that could have been successful and tipped the balance. It would just require the allied heroes to be unsuccessful once...

 

What the world would look like afterwards is arbitrary. The Japanese couldn't have "realistically" conquered Australia, for instance, but might have been able to in a superheroic setting.

 

It's a matter of taste, in other words. Decide what you want, and declare it to be so.

[MilkmanDan]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

Wait a minute . . . Sony camera . . . Toshiba laptop . . . Honda in garage . . .

 

Dammit! They did win WWII! They were just reeeeaaaaaally sneaky about it.

[Mark Rand]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

Japanese supers were drafted into the military and caused the total destruction of the American Pacific fleet and the partial destruction of the Pacific fleets of its allies.

[Metaphysician]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

Pretty much what they said. The only way Japan can win WWII is if the Nazis win in Europe, or Japan negotiates a peace with the US and others. To actually militarily win? Not gonna happen.

[Mark Rand]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

The basics are simple. I want the United States, or, at least, the Western section of it to be Japanese in culture.

 

To me, the only way this'll happen is if the United States lost World War II to Japan. Although this couldn't happen in our world, Japanese supers could easily have caused the destruction of American soldiers, planes, and ships.

[casualplayer]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

Consider Hitler not making the biggest mistake of the war and turning on the Russians, or at least he waited longer to screw the bear. Japan, with Russian assistance or at least without impedance, drives up the Aleutians into Alaska taking and holding the island chain and peninsula. Maybe even a bit of Canada also, maybe well down the coastline into British Columbia or even all the way to Vancouver. Then you have the enemy at the gates and instead of pursuing all the way to V-J Day, Washington sues for peace settling for trouncing 2/3 of the Axis.

 

The US loses a territory and sure as heck isn't in Okinawa, Canada only extends westward to The Rockies and Washington state develops rapidly into a heavily industrial, heavily armed trading post and embassy. Culture trickles northward and southward.

[clsage]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

The basics are simple. I want the United States, or, at least, the Western section of it to be Japanese in culture.

 

To me, the only way this'll happen is if the United States lost World War II to Japan. Although this couldn't happen in our world, Japanese supers could easily have caused the destruction of American soldiers, planes, and ships.

 

There is a novel entitled "The Divide" (the authors name escapes me)

which deals with a United States which has lost WW2 and has the

Eastern half of the country (actually more than that, all the way to

the Rocky Mountains) in German hands and the remainder of the

country (from the Rockies west) in Japanese hands. Part of how

the US lost was that the Japanese went ahead with their 3rd wave of

attacks on Pearl Harbor, including landing troops which lead to their

occupation of the Hawaian Islands. From there they advance to an

invasion of California and a tank battle which results in Patton being

killed....The Germans have used incendiaries and bombed the UK

into submission, after which they move troops into Canada and launch

"The Rain From Hell" across the border, firebombing any East coast

cities in range.

 

It's a rather dark novel, but worth the read if you get the chance.

 

Additionally, if the Japanese had been able to make better use of

their bioweapons development which had been taking place in

Manchuria my personal opinion is that they could have launched a

holding action and applied CBW attacks to civilian targets in the

Western US from floatplane equipped subs or via the "ballon bomb"

method, just as they did with incendiaries (the ballon bombs that is,

not the sub method). While not "winning" the war they might well

have been able to get a more negotiated peace rather than the

unconditional surrender that happened in the real world.

 

MNSHO. YMMV.

 

-Carl-

[Metaphysician]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

The problem with bringing in supers, is explaining why *American* supers didn't turn the situation back to stalemate or better. Remember, it doesn't matter if the Japanese have supers who can fly, swim, teleport, or sneak to the West Coast, unless they can utterly destroy the US's pacific military forces, an actual invasion is pointless waste of time. Preventing the US from interfering in their Asian expansion, is a far sight away from being able to actually meaningfully invade and hold territory in the US, where the logistics go against Japan at every conceivable level.

[OddHat]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

I agree totally. The US whipped Japan with only 20% of our war effort; and even then the Japanese were on the defensive from mid-1942 on. IOW, they went on the defensive after their devastating loss at Midway in June 1942 - seven months after Pearl Harbor almost to the day.

 

Short of aliens or time travellers giving them advanced weapons or some sort of other deus ex machina, there's no plausible way to secure Japanese victory in World War 2.

 

Well, one way: If they'd never attacked the US (and there were arguments against that move made in the Japanese military), they could have hung on to Korea, Taiwan, and Shanghai, chunks of Manchuria, maybe even Hong Kong. They could never have finished taking all of China or SE Asia; they never had the men or resources. The US entry to the war might have been delayed or averted, unless Hitler in his escalating craziness decided to drag America in. Despite conspiracy theorizing to the contrary, every sign and private statement indicated that FDR did not want to get involved directly, instead hoping that the English and Russians would take care of Germany.

 

Post war, Japan would have to deal with Mao / Chinese resistance, who/which might well have pushed them completely out of Shanghai and Manchuria, but probably not out of Taiwan or Hong Kong. The Japanese were also anti-Communist, and would have had considerable trouble from Russia / the USSR. The US might even have helped them out.

 

Modern Asia might feature a much less developed China, a solidly linked Japan and Korea, and Taiwan and HK as Japanese holdings.

[OddHat]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

The basics are simple. I want the United States, or, at least, the Western section of it to be Japanese in culture.

 

To me, the only way this'll happen is if the United States lost World War II to Japan. Although this couldn't happen in our world, Japanese supers could easily have caused the destruction of American soldiers, planes, and ships.

 

Wave your hand and declare it so. "A wizard did it." In terms of actual history, the Japanese Empire was already fraying at the seams when they attacked Pearl Harbor.

[BcAugust]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

The basics are simple. I want the United States, or, at least, the Western section of it to be Japanese in culture.

 

To me, the only way this'll happen is if the United States lost World War II to Japan. Although this couldn't happen in our world, Japanese supers could easily have caused the destruction of American soldiers, planes, and ships.

 

Only way? Ah, but it isn't. Take one little timeline change well before that, in 1421, leads to China colonizing part of the west Coast. Then, a bit after that, China goes isolationist again, the colonists, hoping for support, send the ships to Japan, who agree to help if the colonists swear loyalty to Japan. As time goes on, the various changes(For example, the Japanese gun factories in the 1500s move to the new world, presenting the Europeans with an impossible target when they get that far.)

 

There, the Japanese control the west coast and likely Alaska and BC as well, and the Eastern US still exists, as does likely a Spanish Mexico.

 

Then again, that might be a bit too exotic for what you want.

[Matt Frisbee]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

How about if Germany decided to spread its A-bomb research around so it wouldn't be a total loss if they lost a facility to the Allies? They sneak some scientists and uranium to Japan on a U-Boot, and soon afterward radiation leaking into the ocean from A-bomb research awakens a monster that's been in stasis since prehistoric times. Godzilla rampages through the US Pacific Fleet and the Japanese Imperial Fleet without preference, causing both sides to admit the futility of trying to fight with this thing around, and they agree to a cease-fire, creating a demilitarized zone running through the Pacific.

 

Hey, it's in the Champions forum, right?

 

Um, no. Would the United States have shared nuclear technology with the Soviet Union and England just to spread it around so that if the Nazis or Japanese managed to start coordinated bombing raids against the USA that some friendly power would have it? I think not.

 

The rest of it was a fun read, however.

 

Still, there is a way for Japan to win the war -- by not fighting it. Suppose the attack on Pearl Harbor has exactly the effect that the Japanese military wanted: a crippled Pacific fleet with the Atlantic fleet under duress by German wolfpacks that are sinking lend-lease ships faster than they can be built (especially if German submarines coordinate the attacks with the Japanese to cripple shipbuilding facilities on the Atlantic and Gulf coasts). This forces the Americans to sue for a peace with both the Germans and Japanese while rebuilding their navy and military forces.

Result: England falls, the Soviet front becomes a nightmarish bloodbath that Comrade Stalin enventually loses and America (threatened on two fronts, Canada and Mexico, and two seas, Atlantic and Pacific) is forced to cede land to the victorious Japanese Empire who claims to be protecting Japanese citizens from foreign (i.e. American) influences (mirroring what Hitler did to take Austria without a shot).

 

Good luck with the brainstorming!

 

Matt "Superheroic-goodness" Frisbee

[SKJAM!]

Re: What if: Japan won World War 2?

 

The Battle Royale novel (not the movie) is set in a world where Japan didn't lose WWII. Not so much won it, but managed to avoid being invaded. Unfortunately, this validated authoritarian government in the eyes of the people, and up to the date of the story, Japan is run by a dictator who enjoys sending random classes of junior high students to remote islands for blood sports.