What am I missing... the 5th ED Champions...

[chariot]

First of all, this is not an attack.

Second, I am a fan. I've been playing Champions since before Champions 2 (I still have the original hex map and blue dice that came with the boxed set). I own so many 4th Ed and earlier supplements, I could open a store...

 

I bought the 5th Ed rules, and enjoyed them. I haven't played them yet, but I have seen many improvements. I bought Champions, glad that Aaron was back. Now I know Aaron is far more 4 Color than I am... but did anyone else think too much of Champions bordered on corny?

 

I have only had CU and CKC for a few days... and maybe the problem is that I have not given any of this new material enough time; but I'm not impressed. When I took them out of the box and saw that CU was roughly 1/2 the size of CKC, I said: something just doesn't seem right here.

 

I don't have much to offer in the way of constructive criticism. I am honestly wondering if: 1) I just am an aberration (since so many here seem to really enjoy the new efforts), or 2) I am just really missing some fundamental clue as to what the new Champions and its supplements are all about.

 

I wish to re-iterate. I am a long-time fan and supporter of Hero in all its incarnations (how many out there own the 6 Issue mini-series featuring the original Champions and DEMON?). And I am not trying to disparage the work done by DOJ. Do I need to give it more time, and look at it all more closely? Or, perhaps, is this just not my flavor of Champions?

 

chariot

[Lord Liaden]

Firstly, let me assure you that IMHO you have no reason to apologize for your personal taste; if you don't particularly like certain characters or styles of campaign, that's well within your rights.

 

Secondly, you should know that while Aaron Allston wrote the majority of the genre gaming advice in the Champions genre book, the credit or the blame for the character writeups for the new Champions team all goes to Steve Long.

 

That having been said, I'm wondering what sort of supers gaming you prefer. It sounds like strict "four color" isn't your cup of tea, and I agree that much of the new Champs line material to date does default to that type of game (although there are characters in CKC with a more "dark and gritty" tone, like Thunderbird and Black Harlequin). Some of the upcoming supplements will have a different emphasis, and might be more in line with your tastes - whatever those are.

 

For my part, I'm a "Bronze Age" comic fan, which I think pretty solidly describes most of the Champions material I've seen so far, so I'm a pretty happy camper.

[loki]

good post... made me think

 

Don’t be afraid to express your opinion!

 

Your post got me to thinking, was I truly as impressed as I think I am OR am I just in nirvana to have my hero back?

 

I think it could be a combination of both. I guess I would say I LOVE the super hero setting, and Hero does it better than any other (IMHO). So is it the best? yes (for me), could it be better? Sure

 

Also I think anytime you are looking at a Campaign Setting book like Champions you will rarely find something that you like “as writtenâ€. There will be bits a pieces that you will want to implement and some you may want to throw out. I have not run with a GM yet who hasn’t wanted to put their own “stamp†on the game, the setting and the play style.

 

Perhaps if you look at it like a big bound book of campaign brain storming that will help you see value in the product. Just my thoughts and thank you for the thought provoking post.

 

Lok

[Nato]

I was very impressed CKC, and most of the Champs material to date for that matter. I think it blows away previous edition Champs stuff in terms of mechanics and writing quality. I like how all the powers now have names given to them in the write-ups. This makes the character more vivid, and the sheet easier to read. The backgrounds info is very well written, and I haven't read to many characters in CKC that I didn't like - unlike Classic Enemies, where I could flip through and be lucky to enjoy half of them. In addition to being better than previous editions, I think the new campaign material strikes a great balance betweem four-color style and modern or gritty. PSI is a great dark and modern villain group. The Destroyer rework takes what was great about the character and streamlined him, and trimmed some of the cornyness off from prior versions. I was also happy to have new artwork for the characters. I liked much of it in that book, and I think each book released has better art in it then the next. The Champions Universe gets more fleshed out with each book as well, and to me feels like a geniune comic universe. It seems to have a great sense of continuity, and each book seems to closely tie into what has been written before. It's also had the most material released for it than any of the other super-hero RPGs (other than the Marvel Universe game). I'd personally rather have 6 black & white books with excellent background information and useful game stuff than one hardback full-color book (even though I pick those up too.) All in all, I've enjoyed the new Champions products quite a bit, probablly more than when I first started playing in the 80s.

[JohnTaber]

Hi Chariot,

 

What specifically do you not like about CKC and CU? Is it purely the size of the books? Do you think CKC should have less detail? Do you think CU should have more? Can you elaborate?

 

FYI. Personally I think CKC has TOO much information but from what I have heard I think I am in the minority.

[Yamo]

I'd prefer to see more dark and gritty stuff and less four-color, too.

 

Here's hoping that we can get new material in the vein of the old Dark Champions stuff soon.

[Nato]

If the current support of 5th edition genre materials is any indication, then you Dark Champions fans should be very happy when that book finally hits the stands. I'm sure Hero will be putting out a lot of great supporting material for that as well.

[chariot]

So I can blame Mr Long for Witchcraft, can I?

 

I guess I am still not too sure what my complaints are. Maybe I'm just experienceing some bitter nostalgia, and trying to find my way around this new world.

 

I certainly don't miss the BBB's hero team... but right now I am missing so much I enjoyed from 4th ED. I loved the Mutant File, High-Tech Enemies and Mystic Masters. So much of what I've learned about the CU has been seemingly written out of existence. Not that I ever played in the old CU, mind you... my own world was quite a bit darker, and much more magical.

 

Didn't everybody feel the same way when Obi-Wan told us you could measure someone's ability to control the Force by doing a blood test?

 

And perhaps I am just seeing the warts right now, because I am feeling this way. Hornet's origin is really bugging me for some reason. And some of Howler's, too... nitpick, nitpick.

 

I promise to go forth and actually read some more of CU before I go on.

 

HERO still rules, even though I love 3rd D&D.

Chariot

[Lord Liaden]

Okay, Chariot, I think I have a better handle on what you find lacking, and I say unto you that all is not lost. There isn't much we can do about "officially" salvaging most of the characters from High Tech Enemies or The Mutant File (although adapting them to 5E for your campaign wouldn't be hard), but Champions Universe has already mentioned the Vandaleurs and Tyrannon the Conqueror from Mystic Masters, so I think you can expect them to appear in upcoming Champs products, most likely The Mystic World and Vibora Bay. I'd suggest taking a look at the descriptions of those books via the "Our Products" link to your left - they sound more like what you have in mind.

 

As for nostalgia for that which has been revised out of existence, I sympathise - I'm still disappointed that there'll be no official update of VOICE.

[OddHat]

I'd agree that the new CU is very much four color, far more so than my default campaign world. OTOH Champions has always been pretty uneven, with everything from pure four color to seriously dark realisitic horror mixed in the same game world. The new setting is at least (fairly) consistent. I don't like that Dark Champions is going to be taking place in the same world.

 

My current campaign uses bits and pieces from the world backgrounds of a half-dozen authors, with CU and CKC mainly used for a quick villain or NPC hero.

[Blue]

When I proposed a champions game to my players (who had played champions long ago but had recently been playing D&D, WoD settings, and a few other things) the first question they had was "What's the tone?"

 

Whereupon I thought to myself... "Champions. You know. Champions!

 

I knew what they meant, it's just that I've never classified a campaign that I ran. Somedays it was comedic. Other times it was horrific. It was light as Groo and Dark as Sin City. I never felt a need to classify it. But I had to, because the character concepts coming in were vastly different, causing players to roll their eyes at one another.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that to me the books are pretty much like they've always been. They're champions books with champions-style heroes, who fit some kind of conventional middle ground in general but a few skirt the extreme edges. The books are what I expected them to be, based on previous work, and I'm not the least bit disappointed.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Yamo

Here's hoping that we can get new material in the vein of the old Dark Champions stuff soon.

That would be part of the purpose of the Dark Champions line, coming next year to a FLGS near you.

[Jeff]

I like to think that all or most of what 4th edition background has going for it over 5th edition is just (a) quantity, and ( familiarity. And when you can co-opt the old stuff into the new background - plenty will fit, I think you're worst off if you're a Genocide fan - even that's not a problem.

 

When I'm not trying to be optimistic, and when I'm not riding the powerful high of NEW HERO STUFF, it's harder not to feel a bit let-down. CKC, for instance, ends up looking more bigger than Classic Enemies than better. You've got master villains so powerful that they just make heroes look irrelevant more than challenged, really boring villains (Anubis, Zorran), and some that manage to be both (Holocaust, Gravitar). Even Black Paladin seems to be a bit less evil because the evil's stretched out over excess paragraphs.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Jeff

You've got master villains so powerful that they just make heroes look irrelevant more than challenged, really boring villains (Anubis, Zorran), and some that manage to be both (Holocaust, Gravitar).

That just shows you how subjective everything in life is. Anubis, Zorran, Holcaust, and Gravitar are 4 of the main villians in my MC campaign.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by Monolith

That just shows you how subjective everything in life is. Anubis, Zorran, Holcaust, and Gravitar are 4 of the main villians in my MC campaign.

 

Right, enough boggling - How do you do that?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What am I missing... the 5th ED Champions...

 

Originally posted by chariot

First of all, this is not an attack.

Second, I am a fan. I've been playing Champions since before Champions 2 (I still have the original hex map and blue dice that came with the boxed set). I own so many 4th Ed and earlier supplements, I could open a store...

 

Me too - but I have the black dice. The itty bitty blue ones were a great disappointment to another player who bought later.

 

I bought the 5th Ed rules, and enjoyed them. I haven't played them yet, but I have seen many improvements. I bought Champions, glad that Aaron was back. Now I know Aaron is far more 4 Color than I am... but did anyone else think too much of Champions bordered on corny?

 

I have only had CU and CKC for a few days... and maybe the problem is that I have not given any of this new material enough time; but I'm not impressed. When I took them out of the box and saw that CU was roughly 1/2 the size of CKC, I said: something just doesn't seem right here.[/b]

 

Haven't detail read them, but I've yet to find a supers supplement that can't be adapted (or use even a single character "out of the box" with no customizing). Take what you like, change what you don't. Prefer the old background? Use the old background!

 

I wish to re-iterate. I am a long-time fan and supporter of Hero in all its incarnations (how many out there own the 6 Issue mini-series featuring the original Champions and DEMON?).

 

Yup...and Flare. And Marksman.

 

And I am not trying to disparage the work done by DOJ. Do I need to give it more time, and look at it all more closely? Or, perhaps, is this just not my flavor of Champions?

 

At the risk of being flamed, I prefer it greatly to Dark Champions. Years ago, I overheard the comment "I prefer more realistic heroes...like the Punisher". Never quite got over that...

 

How many times has he suffered life threatening wounds? Broken bones with no treatment? In unhygeinic conditions? Yet he stays in peak physical condition nonetheless...

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Jeff

Right, enough boggling - How do you do that?

I have no idea.

 

I use Holocaust as the "new" Dr. Destroyer for the campaign. He operates out of Chicago but most of his schemes extend into Millennium City (outside of New York, MC has the second most supers). He is seeking to conquer everything and Chicago is his centralized power center. Holocaust has that same toughness that the old Dr. Destroyer had and makes a good master-like villain that the players can actually fight.

 

Anubis is the diabolical threat for the campaign. I use Anubis as a character who has two personalities: One thinks he is an avatar of Anubis and commits petty and extravagant crimes. The second is Set who is using his power to subjugate DEMON and is trying to absorb them into the Cult of Set. This makes for a huge Anubis/DEMON war that is an underlying theme of the campaign.

 

Zorran has come to MC seeking a Lemurian artifact that will grant him great powers to control human thoughts. Zorran just needs to figure out where the Trismegistus Council has hidden it. He is using blackmail and kidnapping schemes to try and force Witchcraft, and other mystics in the city, to tell him where it is. Zorran is also doing some work with Talisman involving capture the energy of the spirits killed in the city. This will eventually garner the attention of Takofanes.

 

Gravitar has been trying to keep a low profile in MC (nearly impossible for her ego though), but she is secretly searching for an old Dr. Destroyer base. She is trying to figure out why Dr. Destroyer chose Detroit and she feels that there will be information she needs hidden in the base. She has been using VIPER agents as her searchers. The leader of the VIPER nest thinks his scientists have almost found a way to control her. To him Gravitar will make an excellent VIPER puppet, but for now they put up with her and do the simple things she asks.

 

That pretty much covers the basics of what those 4 are doing in my game.

[Killer Shrike]

I differ in my own opinion. I personally hated 4e CU; Id use almost all of it as bird cage liner. I always did my HERO System supers in settings of my own devising.

 

5e CU on the otherhand struck an immediate chord with me however, so much so that I wrapped up the paranormal meets cyberpunk campaign I was running at the time it all came out and started a new CU campaign set in Millennium City! And its been a blast. The PCs are in the 415 pt range after about 5 months of play. Ive used a mix of CU characters and characters of my own devising. So far most of the characters that have seen play were my own characters or adapted official characters, but the official characters show up more in the background as references and in news reports -- that sort of thing.

 

I havent dealt with the actual team The Champions yet; I had them go off on some major mission near the beginning of the campaign b4 the PCs met them, which after a week or so created an absence which the PCs have filled as more of an Auxillary corps than an actual team of heroes. The Champions absence has become prolonged to a few months, and people are starting to get concerned.....leading into the next story arc for the PCs

 

The only major problem so far is that because it summer time in RL, and half my group are college students and the other half have occasional vacation plans and what not, the attendence from week to week has been very topsy turvy, making it difficult to run storylines that span game sessions, so Im a little concerned about starting this arc as it will necessitate leaving MC...The in-game timing indicates to do it now, but the RL timing indicates to hold off on it until the summer is over and the player roster stabalizes......Hrmm...

 

Anyhoo, just thinking aloud; none of thats either here nor there. The upshot is I would recommend not coming into 5th CU looking for previous incarnations and just take it as a clean slate. If you consider it as a comic book continuity as broad as the Marvel or DC universe that was basically manufactured in a closed environment by a handful of people rather than an entire staff of writers and artists and editors, its really pretty impressive. It covers the gamut of genre tropes, defines itself well enough to play with, and leaves enough open to not rule out most character concepts or GM ideas. Instead of looking at it as a black box all or nothing, look at it as a buffet line. Take what you want, leave the rest behind the snot shield.

 

My 1 and only gripe about the CU (and easily excised in my own campaigns at that) is the idea that Superpowers are possible because of Magic, and ebb and flow accordingly. That makes ZERO sense to me, and I dont implement that in my continuity.

 

All that means is that my CU is a dimension similar but slightly different from the main CU, and that the Terran Empire and Galactic Champions as written are not in the same continuity as my game. That explains away all differences between my campaigns and the official products, and is basically how it is for every other GM who varies from the published material in the slightest, so I dont feel too bad about it at all. In fact I may take advantage of it at some point with a cross-dimensional adventure. It might be interesting to have the PCs end up in a dimension thats almost EXACTLY like thier own in the major details, only to discover that they themselves dont exist in it, and many of thier enemies and allies dont either......

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

The only major problem so far is that because it summer time in RL, and half my group are college students and the other half have occasional vacation plans and what not, the attendence from week to week has been very topsy turvy, making it difficult to run storylines that span game sessions, so Im a little concerned about starting this arc as it will necessitate leaving MC...The in-game timing indicates to do it now, but the RL timing indicates to hold off on it until the summer is over and the player roster stabalizes......Hrmm...

 

Time for a miniseries or flashback adventure...

[Lord Mhoram]

I don't like the actual CU setting much myself. I find the villians just a tad to nasty, and find in the timeline entirely too many "All the heroes banded together to stop the huge menace and died" - Destroyer in 75, Demon in 81, takofones in 87, the whole detroit thing....

Every "major" villian at the opening of CKC has a KA, except Istvatha who has that EDM as atttack. Every member of the Crowns of Krimm, half of Eurostar...

Again, not that this is neccisarily bad, just not my style. I try and have only 10% of villians and heroes to have killing attacks.

I go for a very Silver age feel. Bright suits, shiny heroes, lots of rubber science. The new CU is just bleh to me.

I use bits I like and characters that grab me (I love Dr Silverback). But as a whole I was very dissapointed with the whole CU. I loved the new rules, I loved the genre books, CU was just not my style. It just wasn't four color enough for me.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Lord Mhoram

I don't like the actual CU setting much myself. I find the villians just a tad to nasty, and find in the timeline entirely too many "All the heroes banded together to stop the huge menace and died" - Destroyer in 75, Demon in 81, takofones in 87, the whole detroit thing....

Every "major" villian at the opening of CKC has a KA, except Istvatha who has that EDM as atttack. Every member of the Crowns of Krimm, half of Eurostar...

Again, not that this is neccisarily bad, just not my style. I try and have only 10% of villians and heroes to have killing attacks.

I go for a very Silver age feel. Bright suits, shiny heroes, lots of rubber science. The new CU is just bleh to me.

I use bits I like and characters that grab me (I love Dr Silverback). But as a whole I was very dissapointed with the whole CU. I loved the new rules, I loved the genre books, CU was just not my style. It just wasn't four color enough for me.

 

Just replace all the killing attacks with NND EBs at the same Active Points. Same end effect without all the blood and gore

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Just replace all the killing attacks with NND EBs at the same Active Points. Same end effect without all the blood and gore

 

I do such things.

 

 

Mostly I was complaining about what this said about the tone of the world.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by chariot

I bought Champions, glad that Aaron was back. Now I know Aaron is far more 4 Color than I am... but did anyone else think too much of Champions bordered on corny?

 

 

Originally posted by Lord Mhoram

I loved the new rules, I loved the genre books, CU was just not my style. It just wasn't four color enough for me.

 

Once again, the range of personal taste is demonstrated.

 

Personally, I think Hero Games is taking a wise course with their Champions products: create a default setting with as wide an appeal to their audience as possible, but continue to produce books targetted to those who prefer a different flavor.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Personally, I think Hero Games is taking a wise course with their Champions products: create a default setting with as wide an appeal to their audience as possible, but continue to produce books targetted to those who prefer a different flavor.

 

I agree. Most of my annoyances are nitpicky. To be honest I used the phrase "not four color enough" as a counterpoint to the original comments.

 

I think what Hero games is doing is perfect from a business standpoint, but they didn't read my mind and make the campaign cater to _my_ personal tastes... which they should have. :D

[chariot]

I actually started to read CU, and...

 

I'm enjoying it.

Someone's advice here was correct, and I did need to look at it as a blank slate. I wasn't really expecting that. But the world history is pretty cool. And while the Champions may be more 4 color than I can stomach, I would say that the world is not necessarily so.

 

I have to retract my comment about Champions being corny. Its not the genre material that is corny (except some of the archtypes, and that is unavoidable), it is the Champions themselves that I find corny. And I guess it is their rigid molds that I find so corny. Not that many of my heroes did not fall into stereotypes... but they (and the villains in the book) just seem so... I don't know.

 

I will continue my work with CU and hope that I find more that I like.

 

I must, however, insert a strong personal comment here. I followed Lord Lidian's (sp?) advice and checked out some of the upcoming products. Looks good, except... did anyone else out there buy Ultimate Supermage and get turned off by the editorial asides by the author about RL practioners of magick? I was so unbelievably enraged by the snide remarks and outright insults that were slung, that I swore I would never buy another supplement penned by that author. Now I see he's been tapped to write The Mystic World and Vibora Bay, the two supplements I am most interested in... particulary because I am a RL practioner of magick.

 

If I had the supplement in front of me, I'd quote some of the passages... alas, I do not. But I remember my feelings well to this day. These editorial feelings had no business being in the supplement.