Superheroes and lethal force

[SSgt Baloo]

There's another thread where the Great Debate is whether a normal with a gun can be a threat to a super. I'd like to approach this debate from another direction: How do you encourage the heroes to heroically thwart and capture the badguys instead of just killing them out of hand? This was never a problem in my campaigns, but my players trusted me to give them an even break.

 

Firstly, badguys with killing attacks should be rare. Let me rephease that. While killing attacks are sometimes appropriate for the badguys' main offense, kill-crazy madmen should be rare. It's an uncommon occurrence to have a villain who's sole intent is to publicly kill people in front of the heroes, or to just kill the heroes. Murderous intent should always be used as a seasoning, not the main dish. If the (0rPD/0rED) Human Hamburger's hunted is Flame-Broiler-man, then FB-man will probably threaten to burn something up, rather than just grilling H-H's head. It's a mistake for a GM to lightly make any vendetta a villain has against a hero "personal" unless he knows that the player will see this as a role-playing opportunity and not a threat to his character's continued existance. I've played with some GMs who'd spring things on us like the 40-year-old killer villain who could disguise himself as a five-year-old kid, in an attempt to get someone to go off on an innocent kid, thinking it was the villain.

 

Likewise, it's a lot easier for the heroes to face gun-toting mooks if they understand that they aren't a serious threat. If the players don't know their characters are unhittable (or unwoundable) by the teeming masses of street thugs, you should make an effort to demonstrate this to them. It's easier to leave the kid gloves on when you know the baddie's henchmen will either stay down or flee once hit (or once they see their buddy hit).

 

So... How do you maintain an appropriate lethality level in your campaigns?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

My players simply know the game style and genre going in and know that 'killer heroes' are not allowed. That about covers it.

 

Basically, my appropriate level of lethality is 'nobody dies'.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

I simply apply real world consequences for their actions. Yes they can kill, but that does not mean the 20 point code vs. killing does not have consequences.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

In my supers game lethality is pretty low ( other genres are different SF a little higher ,fantasy more so) The heroes tend to have a reluctance to kill based on wanting to stay in fairly good with the authorities and the players want interesting enemies to stay around. only if a villain has done some particularly heinous does this change. Which is pretty rare and usually a grand arc in itself

 

My group is aware on design how tough, vulnerable their characters are and builds to concept but everyone's pretty competitive and exceptional compared to basic thugs or even elite forces. So thet can have the proper superheroic confidence.

[Alibear]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

It's to get rid of recurring villains that would push my players to kill.

 

Wtf is wrong with Ben Nevis - The Man Mountain?

[concord]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

Here are the guidelines for characters in the Wardens/Foundations Chronicles games:

 

1. The setting is a "Bronze Age/Five Color (Four-Color with some Gray)" type of game.
   
2. Heroes and team players only. No sociopathic loners or psychopaths.
   
3. Be careful in your choice of powers and how they are constructed. That that you have will also be that of the adversary and then some.
   
4. No Aliens.
   
5. No Extra-Dimensional Movement.
   

 

Numbers 1 through 3 are the guidelines that pertain to how lethal force is treated in the campaign.

 

Number 1 describes the general feel of the campaign. The good guys don't win by having a higher body count than the bad guys.

 

Number 2 describes the PCs in the game. The good guys work together and are usually pretty well adjusted members of society.

 

Number 3 describes the general power level. The good guys are a force to be reckoned with but there is always going to be a more powerful adversary out there somewhere.

 

.

[Opal]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

In my campaign world, most Americasn heros are part of a government sanctioned team, including the PCs, currently. (In the past, I've run PCs without such affiliation in the same world, with the official team as occasional allies or foils). Killing, thus, has consequences if it's not justified. The original team roster for this group had several Code vs Killing types, anyway, so, once the gun-wielding super-soldier was replaced, it hasn't been an issue (though one team member is still entirely willing to kill, if need be, she hasn't felt forced to, yet).

 

More generally, I use the 'reluctant to kill' default, and encourage the 'Code,' while discouraging the reverse. I just like to run something a /little/ closer to the classic Silver Age/Saturday-morning-cartoon version of supers, in which death often threatens, but rarely occurs.

 

 

That aside, 'lethal force' does not have to be a KA. A 12 EB will likely kill a normal. The difference between 2 ED and no defense at all is pretty minimal.

[SSgt Baloo]

Another thing: the "Super-Jail" in my campaign world is not a seive. Bad-guys stay in prison (when convicted) until something extraordinary happens to enable them to escape. Few get away scott-free, and usually the heroes are called in to assist in recapturing the escapees. Villains fresh out of jail are unlikely to have all the goodies that made them such a threat when they were captured in the first place. More importantly, unless someone on the outside was helping, the escaped badguy probably hasn't got much of a plan aside from "run like heck, then hide!"

 

Not every antagonist carries (or is) a weapon. Sometimes it's a burning building that people need to be rescued from, a schoolbus careening down a steep, windy road with bad brakes, or even a cat stuck in a tree. I like my heroes to have a variety of problems to solve. Often, they'll get some enjoyment out of solving a problem that doesn't involve applying fists to faces. One of the best scenarios I ran in my Pre-War (1938-1941) campaign was a trip to cuba for downtime, when a tenement caught fire and the heroes responded by rescuing the occupants and using their powers in imaginative ways to quench the fire.

[Zed-F]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

Well, that depends a lot on the game.

 

Generally, I try to be as upfront on the tone of the game I am trying to run as I can, and expect players to abide by that tone. This is generally sufficient.

 

Sometimes there are hiccups. I usually address these by (a) talking with the players and ( applying real world consequences, or at least consequences as close to the real world as I can manage. If a player is playing a character with a Silver Age ethic in my Dark Champions game, and comes across situations that (rightly) don't belong in a Silver Age game, yet insists on keeping the kid gloves on when dealing with a serious and deadly threat... that will have consequences if he fails to contain said threat adequately. By the same token, my Dark Champions game is not a Rusty Iron gorefest, and PCs that go too far in the other direction will get called to task for it by the authorities, and they'd better be able and prepared to justify their actions. With proof to back it up.

 

If I were running a more traditional comics game, I'd probably do the same, except I wouldn't even bother to include situations where imposing the death penalty would be a reasonable course of action in real world terms. Any repeat offenders would be strictly non-deadly, and potentially deadly foes would be non-human, if they were present at all.

[nexus]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

For me it depends on the tone of the game I'm running. Generally, I'll tell the players what to expect and what I'm expecting of them. It usually works. That said I don't often truly "four color" games. The choice of using lethal force is up to the individual characters and the consequences depend on how they handle it, the situation and role play.

[Certified]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

With my current game I told the players in the beginning that I had hoped to capture a 4 color high adventure feel. In addition to this I set out starting character guidelines to help shape the feel of the characters and make sure they are all roughly on the same power level. This has worked to put most hand guns out of the instant kill range.

 

As the PCs worked on characters most of them feel into working for a government agency or another. Only one character has a killing attack a multi-power slot with several other less lethal options to go with it.

 

I think part of what helps with this is making sure everyone agrees with the tone of the game. Once everyone agrees that death is a major event or as quick and easy as offing those four goblins at 1st level (pardon the cross reference) everyone involved should have a better understanding of the overall feel of the game and creating character that fit into this shared mold becomes much easier.

 

As a side note, I think some players, in any system may take an insert character here attitude. That is to say: One campaign with 350 point Superheroic character can fit as easily into one game as another. I think during the initial character creation process it shouldn't just be the GM who sees the other character. The PCs need to be able to work together. Sure there are times when people might have had one concept or anther they absolutely wanted to play but stats can be modified back stories altered so that they can fit with the other characters and the overall tone of a campaign.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

I think it just depends on the tone set by the GM.

 

If you have villains like the Impossible Man or CLOWN, then I'd be hard pressed to do more than stunning damage against them.

 

You start throwing the current incarnation of the Joker at my character, I'm feeding that rapid dog feet first through a wood chipper...slowly.

 

TB

[Balabanto]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

Well, my world has Prison that revolves at the speed of plot, so I have total control over when a villain gets out of prison or not.

 

However, I have a simple rule. The heroes and villains obey the rules of the hero/villain game, which has remained virtually unchanged for years.

 

If someone takes off the gloves and starts using killing attacks, then it's open season. For this reason, a lot of heroes with less than sterling morals get killing attacks used against them a lot more often.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

It's a quid pro quo. If you want a game where the heros don't kill, you can't punish them for refusing to kill. If the Bad Guy they saved last week responds by blowing up a day care, then laughing maniacally at the heroes who didn't put him in the ground when they had the chance, the players will, quite unsurprisingly, want their characters to become more lethal. If their refusal to let the Bad Guy die so impresses one of his henchmen that he turns on the Bad Guy when it looks like the heroes will fall, then the players will see the benefits to their characters' moral code.

 

I find the most common answer, by far, to GM's who ask questions that begin "Why do my players do this?" is "Because you reward them for doing that" or, alternatively, "Because you punish them when they don't".

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

It's a quid pro quo. If you want a game where the heros don't kill, you can't punish them for refusing to kill. If the Bad Guy they saved last week responds by blowing up a day care, then laughing maniacally at the heroes who didn't put him in the ground when they had the chance, the players will, quite unsurprisingly, want their characters to become more lethal. If their refusal to let the Bad Guy die so impresses one of his henchmen that he turns on the Bad Guy when it looks like the heroes will fall, then the players will see the benefits to their characters' moral code.

 

I find the most common answer, by far, to GM's who ask questions that begin "Why do my players do this?" is "Because you reward them for doing that" or, alternatively, "Because you punish them when they don't".

 

QFT!

[sinanju]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

It's to get rid of recurring villains that would push my players to kill.

 

Heh. I'm sure Steamteck could tell you a few tales about dealing with my PCs when I was playing with his group. Recurring villains are a staple of his campaigns, but I tend to get obsessed with running them to ground. It ain't over til I've exhausted ALL POSSIBLE MEANS of tracking down and killing the bad guy....

[input.jack]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

In my "standard" supers campaign (strong Bronze Age feel....obviously ) I let PCs do what they want to do. Players understand that (a) I prefer a "Bronze Age" feel, and ( I believe that actions have consequences.

 

Point A means that I think that superheroes are primarily HEROES. As a group, they hold themselves to a higher moral code than the rest of us. They have to. They have the power to do great good, or great evil. Being a hero takes willpower and committment.

 

Point B means that if they start killing people, there will bw several forms of repurcussion, First, the law enforcement community is not likely to call on or trust a cape who kills regularly. In fact, such a person WILL end up on the "Wanted" lists, if it becomes known that they are a killer. Second, the spuer-powered community monitors itself pretty closely, and killing your enemies has a tendency to make your existing enemies fight harder, your friends to sometimes reclassify you as an enemy, and new enemies to come after you for revenge for what youve done.

 

The "supers" community in my campaign operates with a few "unspoken rules". Its just understood by most heroes and villains that so long as no one gets killed, people will not whip out lethal force or pursue lethal vendettas. But being a "cape-killer" is NOT a good Rep to have; the hero community comes after you HARD, and those "fringe heroes" (like Wolverine or Punisher in Marvel) are now much much more likely to be coming for YOUR blood.

 

Not all villains are capable of understanding this.

 

Heroes who cant understand it usually arent really considered "heroes" for very long.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

As a GM I stop the game and take the palter aside and remind him this is a Superhero Campaign, not a Vigilante Campaign. I use their Character's Disadvantages to remind them of that. Making them roll vs the Disadvantage to see if they will kill.

 

If their character persists, I begin penalizing the character. He recieve no Character Points when he Kills, the Authorities, and his Firends will come for him.

 

As a Player, I generally reserve Killing the Bad Guys to those who will threaten the lives of Families, Friends, and Innocents. They would generally prefer to caputure and imprison, but the system better work. Serial Killer Bad Guys should be captured and imprisioned. After the second time around they should be put down.

 

Resources

igilantes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigilante

 

Fictional Vigilantes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_vigilantes

 

Digital Hero #42

http://www.herogames.com/viewDHIssue.htm?issueID=221595

 

Anti-Hero

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti_hero

 

 

Justice is best left to the hands of the government/society... When that fails, change the government. Do not take the law into your own hands.

 

 

QM

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

Heh. I'm sure Steamteck could tell you a few tales about dealing with my PCs when I was playing with his group. Recurring villains are a staple of his campaigns' date=' but I tend to get obsessed with running them to ground. It ain't over til I've exhausted ALL POSSIBLE MEANS of tracking down and killing the bad guy....[/quote']

 

Often including suicidal actions on your part!!!. Remember when your drugged character with a density heavier than water leap into the murky water after the wounded ninja for example?

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

On the other hand, I remember when you shot the dead ninja in the same adventure just cause you were annoyed and found he was just faking.

[sinanju]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

Heh. I'm sure Steamteck could tell you a few tales about dealing with my PCs when I was playing with his group. Recurring villains are a staple of his campaigns, but I tend to get obsessed with running them to ground. It ain't over til I've exhausted ALL POSSIBLE MEANS of tracking down and killing the bad guy....

 

Often including suicidal actions on your part!!!. Remember when your drugged character with a density heavier than water leap into the murky water after the wounded ninja for example?

 

Hey, I was just playing my disadvantages. "Overconfident," remember? Sure, I've been drugged, and I'm particularly susceptible to drugs--but I can stay awake and active long enough to catch that ******* and still climb out of the water!

 

Or, I thought I could.

 

On the other hand' date=' I remember when you shot the dead ninja in the same adventure just cause you were annoyed and found he was just faking.[/quote']

 

And JUSTICE was SERVED! "Ninjas. I _hate_ those guys!"

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

Heh. I'm sure Steamteck could tell you a few tales about dealing with my PCs when I was playing with his group. Recurring villains are a staple of his campaigns' date=' but I tend to get obsessed with running them to ground. It ain't over til I've exhausted ALL POSSIBLE MEANS of tracking down and killing the bad guy....[/quote']

 

Consequences. Not real world "you get arrested for murder" or "no one likes you because you are as bad as they are" consequences. Comic book consequences.

 

- That low-powered martial artist you killed returns from the grave a spectre with vast mystical powers (Villains & Vigilantes comic)

 

- The guy you let fall to his death returns as a ghost haunting you (Mockingbird/Phantom Rider)

 

- That irksome gadgeteer who dies comes back from the grave with the power to bring back other dead enemies and friends under his control (Grim Reaper)

 

- Your execution of a criminal causes the destruction of virtually all of your galactic force for justice (Hal Jordan kills Sinestro)

 

- the villain you accidentally killed has a relative who takes over where he left off - perhaps someone close to you (Spider Man - Green Goblin Norman Osborne/Harry Osborne)

 

- The murderer you left to die by his own devices stays dead.

 

 

 

 

Thought you got away with something, didn't you? But your willingness to let him die causes your predecessor to reconsider his choice of successor, return from retirement and take you down (Azrael Batman)

 

The comics are littered with examples where a villain's death (especially when caused by or even permitted to happen by a Hero) has repercussions ranging from a much more powerful successor to the villain to collapse of entire benevolent organizations.

 

In the modern age of comics, maybe you go on trial, but your actions were justified and you are acquited, although your reputation may suffer. (Wonder Woman kills Max Lord). In the silver and bronze ages, the consequences were often far broader. When those GM's said "I don't want murderous PC's", they were more than willing to back it up in-game. So their players quickly learned that "We don't want to descend to his level".

[Alverant]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

I thought the reasons why comic book heroes didn't kill was to keep the writers from having to create a new villain each time and having a villain come back for revenge was an easy plot to create.

 

That being said, all my characters had some form of killing attack and used them mostly against inanimate objects, villains who could take the hit (and hopefully win at the stun lotto), villains who are innately evil (nazis), and psychos who need to be put down like a rabid dog.

 

My group treats lethal force generally the same way with the additional caveat of it being a desperate situation. We have a character with a 3d6 RKA, Find Weakness, and a knack for making head shots. It only happens when we're facing defeat.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

We understand we're in a four-color campaign, and act accordingly. Since most of our players are also GMs in the campaign we all have a strong incentive to keep the game from going lethal. All of the current PCs have CvK to some degree. (The only one who didn't was an Air Force Reserve F-15 pilot for whom refusing to ever kill wouldn't make sense; especially since he shot down enemy aircraft in Iraq and Bosnia as part of his backstory.)

 

When we capture supervillains and incarcerate them in one of the metahuman detention facilities, they're not out two weeks later. In fact as of this date no captured villain has escaped from prison. I'm sure it will happen someday, but it will be a major story element and not a casual "Oh, yeah, Eurostar all escaped from prison last week."

[GamePhil]

Re: Superheroes and lethal force

 

In the modern age of comics' date=' maybe you go on trial, but your actions were justified and you are acquited, although your reputation may suffer. (Wonder Woman kills Max Lord).[/quote']

 

Reminds of a game I was in a while ago. It was loosely based on a combination of certain characters from the Marvel and DC universes, but most of them were dead or retired.

 

Batman had been fighting crime for a long time, and had retired when news came in that Kal El (he never took on the name Superman) had been murdered by a villain that was likewise invulnerable, let's call him the Nuclear Man (I may even have that name right).

 

Batman puts on the cape and cowl for the last time, deciding that he is not going to leave the world to the monsters, whatever it takes.

 

Now, Luthor has the only weapon capable of stopping the Nuclear Man hidden somewhere nearby, to use on Kal El should he ever come calling. Bats goes to his office and asks for it politely, but when Luthor refuses, he kills him, saying, "I'm the worlds greatest detective, I'll find it myself."

 

He goes on to kill the Nuclear Man. The Joker, hearing that Bats has come out of retirement, sets up a warehouse full of death traps and waits for him to come and get him, taunting him from atop a giant jack-in-the-box. Batman shoots him dead and goes on a killing spree of his own, wiping out many of the most lethal villains in the US.

 

Being Batman, he then turns himself over to the courts, confessing to murder. He is ultimately acquitted, the court calling his actions justified, and he returns to retirement.

 

Some years later, upon the death of millionaire recluse Bruce Wayne, it is found that the last years of his life were spent in a standard jail cell he had built in his basement, only being released to the yard for exercise per the penal systems requirements and being fed regular prison food. He couldn't accept the courts decision to release him, and punished himself as he felt he should be punished for his crimes.

 

Not sure if that's useful, since it was back story and not something done by or to PCs, but I thought it nicely illustrates what happens when heroes are pushed beyond their limits and that punishment is sometimes inflicted on them by their own codes. It was also fun to recount.