Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

[mojo_bones]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

I still call it Champions, and frequently have to edit myself when responding to things on these boards. My friends and I played "Champions" for way more than 2 years, I think we played it for about 10. I know they started putting the Hero name over or under or around the word Champions, but it was still pretty prominent on the books for quite some time.

[cutsleeve]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

Whens the beta?

 

[mayapuppies]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

Whens the beta?

 

For the Datsun?

[lemming]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

The new Datsun Beta!

 

Though I could see a car named a Beta, but more after the fish.

 

Already done: 1977 Lancia Beta Montecarlo

No fish involved

[Tom Carman]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

According to the currently released information there will be Archetypes. All Archetypes will have access to all powers' date=' but the powers will have different costs depending on which Archetype you've chosen.[/quote']

 

Just the approach I hoped they would not take . I would have preferred just making some powers more expensive in combination with certain specified other powers; but I can see how the Archetype approach simplifies their design process and avoids a ton of "special-casing". The SWG-NGE debacle has left me with an extremely negative view of the very idea of "character classes", that's all.

[mojo_bones]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

Just the approach I hoped they would not take . I would have preferred just making some powers more expensive in combination with certain specified other powers; but I can see how the Archetype approach simplifies their design process and avoids a ton of "special-casing". The SWG-NGE debacle has left me with an extremely negative view of the very idea of "character classes"' date=' that's all.[/quote']

 

I have no idea what the SWG-NGE debacle is. Care to fill us in?

[Spence]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

Just the approach I hoped they would not take . I would have preferred just making some powers more expensive in combination with certain specified other powers; but I can see how the Archetype approach simplifies their design process and avoids a ton of "special-casing". The SWG-NGE debacle has left me with an extremely negative view of the very idea of "character classes"' date=' that's all.[/quote']

 

I have no idea what the SWG-NGE debacle is. But the entire cookie cutter class concept is what would have ended my playing RPG's in any form if it wasn't for Hero. I can see how they need somekind of structure for a computer game, so I can see the need for something. If the "archtypes" are just loose structures within the programming that determine cost ratios, but do not limit access to the lists of things that can be purchased. Then I can live with them.

 

If on the other hand, they go actual classes+levels they will have killed the game before it started.

 

Player: "What do you mean my PC can't have heat beams from his eye's?!"

 

Class Level System: "Well that is an Energy Projector power and your PC is a Brick"

 

Player: "Superman’s a Brick, but he has Heat Beams, Heat Vision and can Fly."

 

Class Level System: "Errrr... UUmmmm...Well that is irrelevant. This is Better.”

 

Player: “Why?”

 

Class Level System: “Because, just shut up now and be a good little sheeple.”

 

Player: {views CLS suspiciously} “Are you from WotC?”

 

[SylvanSnake]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

Why do people assume that just because Cryptic has rights to use the Champions IP that they have total ownership of the RPG name anyway? Other companies have made similar arrangements and have not had hostile takeovers. Must be paranoia working here.

[Tom Carman]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

I can see that some people here are newcomers to the world of Massively-Multiplayer Online Games. Stick around a bit and you will hear all about Star Wars Galaxies and its New Gaming "Enhancements".

 

Imagine if you will, a free-form character creation system with no classes or overt levels. Every player get 250 points to spend on skills. Basic professions (Artisan, Brawler, Entertainer, Marksman, Medic, Scout) have no XP requirements, just an investment of 15 SP to start as a Novice. Using your professional skills generates specific types of XP (pistol, rifle, unarmed, polearm, healing, crafting, etc.), and when you have enough XP you can spend SP on a "skill box". Depending on the profession, the skill box gives access to new weapons or crafting schematics, special attacks, or improves skills (healing speed, weapon accuracy, attack speed, etc.). Beyond the basic professions are Elite and Hybrid professions: Rifleman, Smuggler, Fencer, Armorsmith, Shipwright, Bioengineer, Chef, Doctor, Dancer, Commando, and many more. You only get 250 SP, but you can drop skill boxes and recover the SP to spend on different skills. Master a profession or two to do a few things very well, or be a jack-of-all-trades to do many things adequately; it's up to you to define your own play style. If you want to be a Master Artisan (making vehicles and low-end food buffs) who also crafts low-end medicines, hunts and harvests animal meat and hides, and also plays a mean Chidinkalu Horn down at the cantina, that's fine.

 

Enter World of Warcraft, and the definition of a successful online game is radically changed. A quarter-million players (once among the top 5 in the country) pales next to WoW's multi-millions, and companies get greedy. The changes start with a "Combat Upgrade" that imposes overt levels for the first time; instead of your skills defining your combat capability, it becomes "levels uber alles". Many crafting professions are seriously harmed, and medical crafting reduced to a faint shadow of its former importance. Entertainment professions are decimated as their former functions are eliminated or drastically downgraded and changed. Player interdependence suffers. There are mass protests (ignored of course) and a dramatic exodus. But the player base rebounds: damaged as the game was, it's still better (deeper, subtler, more flexible) than most of the rest.

 

November 2, 2005 brings the announcement of the "New Game Enhancements", which go on Test Center by the weekend, and go live on 11/15. Professions and skill points are gone. You pick a class, and that's all there is to it. You are basically identical to every other member of your class (they later ripped off WoW's talent system to provide some minimal differentiation). Crafting (the old mainspring of the game) becomes all but worthless as loot is elevated far above a crafter's best efforts; the in-game money faucet is turned full-on, and the game economy tanks. In a rare moment of honesty, the game's operators acknowledge that they expect many players to quit; but that's fine because they think that a dumbed-down linear game will bring in many times more than they lose. This time, the exodus is far larger than their worst projections, and all those extremely angry ex-customers make sure that EVERYONE hears about how badly they were skr3w3d. The anticipated vast influx of new players never comes. The game continues to tank, with population levels now down by an estimated 80-90%. Star Wars Galaxies is the industry's poster child for things to never ever EVER do to your game and customers.

[Vondy]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

Since MMO's and table top games are completely different mediums of entertainment: why would anyone care?

 

What works for people at a table (a particuliar conflict and task resolution system) does not necessarily work for a computer game.

 

What are they supposed to do: code in a to hit roll using the OCV system, or damage and defenses done ala hero, or 3D6 vs. target number skill rolls that you will never see?

 

Have you build hero characters when large parts of the character sheet don't translate into the medium well?

 

Its a computer game, not an RPG, no matter how you dress it up. It runs on invisible computer code and graphics, not hero-mechanics, dice, paper, and your imagination.

 

Apples and freaking oranges.

 

If it functioned like hero it wouldn't be a computer game. It would be an online RPG. That's not what an MMO is.

 

Not only that - do you have any idea how difficult it would be to develop an actual online RPG that mimmiced the RPG experience, let alone the hero experience?

 

Its simply not feasible with current technological and economic limitations.

 

The only thing Hero has that ports over to the medium easily is its Setting IP.

 

If it raises awareness its good.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

Why do people assume that just because Cryptic has rights to use the Champions IP that they have total ownership of the RPG name anyway? Other companies have made similar arrangements and have not had hostile takeovers. Must be paranoia working here.

 

Hero Games sold the Champions and Dark Champions IP to Cryptic. In exchange, Hero Games got a free license to print PnP RPG products using that IP in perpetuity and gets access to concept art for the MMO for use in those products. These products must be approved by Cryptic. There are protections for Hero Games in the deal such as the requirement of Cryptic to pay a large sum of money to Hero to revoke the license among others.

[CorPse]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

Hero Games sold the Champions and Dark Champions IP to Cryptic. In exchange' date=' Hero Games got a free license to print PnP RPG products using that IP in perpetuity and gets access to concept art for the MMO for use in those products. These products must be approved by Cryptic. There are protections for Hero Games in the deal such as the requirement of Cryptic to pay a large sum of money to Hero to revoke the license among others.[/quote']

 

And, as has been pointed out... there's nothing to stop Hero from developing Supers products outside of the CU if things did go sour. (And they'd be able to do so with all of the buyout money that Rod mentions above.)

[cutsleeve]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

I'm personally not upset. I realized along time ago that the hero system would result in an EPIC FAIL if they tried to port it to a MMO. It would be difficult to even make a single player game using the system. The IP however and the over all concept of ultimate customization is perfect.

 

I have never played in a straight Champions U campaign but those character appeared in many champs 4th ed games and I loved that. When the game comes out I'm joining, unless I can get in the beta that is.

[i3ullseye]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

Well, I think what needs to be maintained is the feel of the HERO system. No levels, point based designs, advantages, limitations, etc...... Otherwise they could just add Mechanon and Defender to City of Heroes and call it done.

 

A simplified version of HERO could certainly work for character creation and game balancing. Ever play Freedom Force? Great game, and very much felt like a great start at a HERO system PC game.

 

For me, while I love the IP, it really isn't as flushed out as say Marvel or LOTR obviously. And the COH/COV story is actually pretty indepth. I know more overall about characters and histories there than i do in Champions... and I been playing since version 1 of the game. Having a background is not huge for developing MMOs. There is just way more content in online games than many PnP game books can provide.

 

but the argument here isn't just about that. For me, if the new game is level based, as excited as I am by the prospect, i will probably never play. Why not just play COH/COV then? The game is fantastic, so why rehash it?

 

So to me, the HERO rules issues are more of overall approach. And for my dollar, it has to be there to make this game worthwhile.

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

I have no idea what the SWG-NGE debacle is. But the entire cookie cutter class concept is what would have ended my playing RPG's in any form if it wasn't for Hero. I can see how they need somekind of structure for a computer game' date=' so I can see the need for something. If the [i']"archtypes" [/i]are just loose structures within the programming that determine cost ratios, but do not limit access to the lists of things that can be purchased. Then I can live with them.

 

If on the other hand, they go actual classes+levels they will have killed the game before it started.

 

Player: "What do you mean my PC can't have heat beams from his eye's?!"

 

Class Level System: "Well that is an Energy Projector power and your PC is a Brick"

 

Player: "Superman’s a Brick, but he has Heat Beams, Heat Vision and can Fly."

 

Class Level System: "Errrr... UUmmmm...Well that is irrelevant. This is Better.”

 

Player: “Why?”

 

Class Level System: “Because, just shut up now and be a good little sheeple.”

 

Player: {views CLS suspiciously} “Are you from WotC?”

 

 

As has been said in the Game Informer article, and a few times in this discussion, anyone can buy any power. The only diffrence your archetype (and please note, it is archetype, not character class. You know, things like Brick, Blaster, Speedster, etc.) makes is the cost. Some archetypes pay more points (hmm... seems like it'll be a combination of points and levels, since the article did mention a level-cap at 50) for certain powers than other ones. So yes, you can have a flying brick with eyebeams. You'll just pay more for them than the energy blaster would, just as he has to pay more for super-strength and armor skin than your brick does. Sorry if I'm a little ranty here, but I haven't slept all night. Oh, and how does one go about getting into a Beta test? I would love to be able to do that.

[Savinien]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

There once was a Champions MU*. It took three weeks to finalize chargen for me.

[Checkmate]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

One of my main concerns is that Level systems are easier to control and fix if they get borked. As a developer, you pretty much know EXACTLY what a level 15 Wizard can do. If they can do too much by comparison you drop it a little or vice versa.

 

On the other hand, when you have a point based system, where anyone can buy anything, the developers have to look at every single combination of powers to see if anything gets borked. I mean what do you do if Power A is ridiculously if combined with Power B but underpowered if combined with Power C? Do you add limitations like "Loses power hen combined with Power B"?

 

To make matters worse, the majority of MMO players simply cannot or will not make the simple logical step of a complex system is harder to troubleshoot than a simple system. I know, it sounds like a very easy concept, but it blows the minds of the majority of MMO players (take a look at some old Star Wars: Galaxies boards if you don't believe me).

 

As far as the original post, meh it would probably be better if they didn't adhere to Hero System rules. Although the part I dislike most about Hero is the Champions background.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

Funny you say that.

 

You see, for a long time there was no Hero System. It was Champions. The Hero System grew out of Champions.

 

There is still this guy I chat with over email every once and again that refers to things as "Fantasy Champs."

 

It is, what it is. Hero got its start as Supers, the Supers genre is probably THE hardest to represent. I'm saying that it is much easier to make a SuperHero system Fantasy-able than it is to make a Fantasy system SuperHero-albe.

 

The root of Fan is, of course, Fanatic. 'Nough said.

Ain't that the truth. I'll never forget the time my GM tried to do an X-Men campaign in Tunnels & Trolls.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

Why do people assume that just because Cryptic has rights to use the Champions IP that they have total ownership of the RPG name anyway? Other companies have made similar arrangements and have not had hostile takeovers. Must be paranoia working here.

They got Paranoia, too??

[lemming]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

Paranoia would make a great MMO. Just have to figure how to frame other clones...

[mikesama]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

Okay I got a friend working at Cryptic and he ran me through my first Champions game. From what he's said they're gonna start working with the engine they were planning on doing the Marvel Universe MMO with. According to him they were getting the engine set up to copy EVERY! power used in Marvel. I figure that should have some pretty good flexability. Honestly level based or not as long as there is flexibility I can deal with it.

[Tom Carman]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

To make matters worse' date=' the majority of MMO players simply cannot or will not make the simple logical step of a complex system is harder to troubleshoot than a simple system. I know, it sounds like a very easy concept, but it blows the minds of the majority of MMO players (take a look at some old Star Wars: Galaxies boards if you don't believe me).[/quote']

 

And sometimes troubleshooting that complex system is not as hard as some people like to claim it is. Especially when a lot of the "major issues!" are actually fairly minor ones that got magnified by one or two poorly-considered design elements. Complex systems, in which everything tends to affect everything else, are infamous for unintended consequences. Not so much attention is given to how fixing a "root cause" diminishes or removes the knock-on effects.

[Checkmate]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

And sometimes troubleshooting that complex system is not as hard as some people like to claim it is. Especially when a lot of the "major issues!" are actually fairly minor ones that got magnified by one or two poorly-considered design elements. Complex systems' date=' in which everything tends to affect everything else, are infamous for unintended consequences. Not so much attention is given to how [u']fixing[/u] a "root cause" diminishes or removes the knock-on effects.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. In the first part of your post you seem to disagree, but then go on to say what I was saying.

 

What may seem like a "minor" fix can actually be a major undertaking when, as you've said, everything is connected to everything else. A lot of MMO players only look small scale and think "All they need to do to fix it is X". They don't stop to consider that doing X will also have an impact on A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L,M,N, and O. And if A, C, and D get effected that means P,Q,R,S,T,U,V also need adjusting.

 

The more options players have, the harder things are to control (another example of simple logic that seems to escape the common MMO'er), so while I'm a HUGE fan of skill based character advancement, or anyone can do anything, I just hope that people understand that complications involved with that.

[Tom Carman]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. In the first part of your post you seem to disagree, but then go on to say what I was saying.

 

What may seem like a "minor" fix can actually be a major undertaking when, as you've said, everything is connected to everything else. A lot of MMO players only look small scale and think "All they need to do to fix it is X". They don't stop to consider that doing X will also have an impact on A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L,M,N, and O. And if A, C, and D get effected that means P,Q,R,S,T,U,V also need adjusting.

 

The more options players have, the harder things are to control (another example of simple logic that seems to escape the common MMO'er), so while I'm a HUGE fan of skill based character advancement, or anyone can do anything, I just hope that people understand that complications involved with that.

 

I guess I'm still fighting the Pre-CU "combat imbalance" war. As far as I'm concerned, the Star Wars Galaxies developers wasted a year trying to tweak mobs and build the Combat Upgrade Revamp/Balance, only to finally dump it all for a level-based system (the CU) that broke things even worse (for anyone who wasn't "all combat all the time").

 

The "root cause" of much (by no means ALL) of Pre-CU's combat imbalance was the fact that super-buffing secondary stats created a near godmode condition, and the devs seemed to be trying to fix everything except that. It removed the downside of wearing heavy armor: most people then wore only max-protection gear and complained that "everyone looks the same!". It removed the downside of spamming max-damage attacks. It slightly dumbed-down crafting, because armor became all about the resists and weapons were all about the speed/damage; all other considerations could be safely ignored. Godmode players in maxxed-out armor and weapons could solo missions with a money pay-out intended for a full group, and inflation got worse. The doctors' uber-buff created a veritable Hydra of problems... and was never touched.

 

The "All they need to do to fix it is X" argument isn't necessarily wrong, if "X" is a sufficiently root cause and you can do a before-and-after comparison to demonstrate where the troubles started.

[SylvanSnake]

Re: Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

 

Well, I think what needs to be maintained is the feel of the HERO system. No levels, point based designs, advantages, limitations, etc...... Otherwise they could just add Mechanon and Defender to City of Heroes and call it done.

 

A totally point based system with no levels would not work very well in an MMO such as this imo. There has to be a way to set a cap on the power level players can achieve. Some of the biggest issues in almost every MMO on the market are farmers who sell in-game goods for real money, and power leveling. If you made a game system where there was no limit, these groups would literally have the ability to ruin the game servers and unbalance the pvp aspects that may or may not be present in the game.

 

A reasonable compromise would be to have characters receive a set amount of character points to buy powers and such when they level up. This would still make it possible to have a maximum level so maxed out characters can all be roughly the same power level.