eightiesboi Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 I wrote this after reading the latest thread started by Sindyr, but it is directed at any players or GMs who, like myself, have only come to use the Hero system relatively recently. I am here to offer a piece of advice that some may find useful. You may take or leave it as you choose. Sindyr references having GM'd RPGs for 25+ years, and poses some questions about the Hero System. I also have an extensive background with RPGs. My first exposure to Hero was only 3 years ago. I tried learning the system with another friend of mine, who also had played RPGs since shortly after the dinosaurs disappeared. We were fortunate to have a patient and experienced GM, but despite this, my friend and I rapidly became frustrated with this system. My friend quit our campaign soon after, but I stayed with it and eventually stumbled upon the cause of my problem: as far as experienced gamers are concerned, Hero does not have a high learning curve; rather, it has an un-learning curve. When I first started playing, I got so caught up in "powers" that I began picking and choosing things in the rulebook that sounded cool. In fact, my first character was a hodge-podge of various powers with no real thematic underpinning. I had no idea what I was doing, but it seemed fun--that is, until I started playing. I felt (player-wise) as if I were schizophrenic every time we went into combat. I had so many choices spread out over 6 condensed pages, that I felt like it was the roleplaying equivalent of looking at a menu from the Cheesecake Factory! And many of my powers were either useless, underpowered, or simply poorly built. (And for those of you who are wondering: yes, my patient and experienced GM did try and guide me, but I insisted that I could take care of myself, and he was wise enough to let me try. And sympathetic enough not to laugh openly when I fell flat on my face ). For my next character, I tried to do something different. Instead of using the rulebook as a shopping list and / or trying to figure out just how far I could break something, I put the rulebook completely away. For about a week, on and off, I began sketching out a word portrait of my character. I deliberately avoided terms from the books, I just wrote several phrases, sentences, and even paragraphs describing what he could do. I tried to imagine different situations, and how he would tackle them. In a very real sense, I created an imaginary but fully fleshed-out hero in my head. I even found a picture ('cos I suck at drawing) that looked exactly like him. Only then did I pull out the rulebook. But I still didn't start building my character; in fact, I put my word sketch away. For the next week, I reread the rules from cover to cover (well, to be honest, I skipped sections that didn't apply to our campaign or to my character, but you get my meaning). Finally, I put character sketch and rulebook together and begin to design my powers. By working this way, from effect to cause, I was able to build my character without any of my previous frustration. In short order (about half a day's work), I had a very interesting, well-developed, well-structured, and *playable* character. I still had fun in the creation process, but I had even more fun using my balanced character in the campaign--in fact, my GM was so impressed with how I built a few of my powers that he incorporated my builds into some of his own characters. I then started talking with my friend--the one who had quit the campaign--and convinced him to give it another go. He agreed, and we met to design him a new character. At first, he was completely resistant to the process of describing what his character does and then building it (I actually had to pry the rulebook out his hands), but eventually he gave in. After about an hour of talking about his character and brainstorming--without referencing the rules--we fired up Hero Designer, grabbed the book and had a go. Again, another success: we made a great character and my friend ended up rejoining our campaign. What I would strongly recommend to an experienced RPGer new to Hero would be to first read the rules, but skip the powers section; yes, really. Don't worry, you'll come back to it, but resist the temptation for a bit. Learn how the core system works. You don't have to be an expert, but you do want to understand the basics. Then engage in a thought experiment. Take a hero from some source, and think about one of their powers / abilities. Describe it in detail. Then, when you think you've got a grasp of it, read the powers section. Take a few notes, but don't get bogged down with all the great possibilities for incredible, even game-breaking powers. Build that one power. Try building it a couple of different ways. For example, consider Xena. I thought her chakram was pretty dang cool. I think I want one. How would I build it? Well I could do an RKA or an EB or... wait, I'm getting a bit ahead of myself. What does it actually do? Well, Xena throws it, and it hits people. Or other objects. Sometimes it kills people, sometimes it only does a little damage but knocks them out. It always comes back to her; except on a few occasions when someone god-like managed to intercept it. She can hit one person or many. She can hit the same person multiple times with it. She can bounce it off other objects to hit people that have taken cover. She has even, on occasion, seemed to concentrate for a minute and then hit a target that was really, really far away. And she used it once in a really wicked attack where she held it in her hand and cut someone's throat; but she was in a battle rage at the time, so I don't think it is something she really "meant" to do. Okay, now that I've described it, I can build it. Where before, I was trying to figure out whether it should be an RKA or an EB, I realize now that it needs to be a multipower. Obviously, it is a focus, and I'll build a bunch of powers that include things like an RKA *and* an EB (probably more than one of each, or maybe with variable advantage, so that I can have indirect, autofire, area of effect, etc). I realize that the extremely long range shot is probably an LOS with concentration on it, and that I can model that it can be occasionally intercepted with an appropriate limitation like "can be missile blocked." I'll even throw in the HKA for when I want to use it up close and personal, and limit that to only when I've become enraged (obviously, this exercise in building a single power has bled over into choosing my disadvantages as well). My point isn't to actually build Xena's chakram. Rather it's to state the obvious: if you *really* know what you want to be able to do, (and I mean really; not just describing it using the power names provided by the rulebook), it becomes much easier to design your characters. Once you become comfortable doing this, *then* start toying with powers themselves to see what other ideas you get. Or grab the Until Superpowers Database--you'll find some great idea-starters in there. But trying to use the powers in the rulebook without knowing what you really want them to do is akin to looking for the answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything; if you can't describe what you really want to know, the answer you get is likely to be relatively meaningless. For those of you on these boards who have amassed much experience with this system (I've been a lurker for a long time, and I've learned quite a bit from your discussions, debates, and arguments), I would ask that you practice patience whenever a newcomer to the boards and the game propose something like Absolute Invulnerability for the umpteenth time. Yes, you've been there before, and yes, if newbies took time to search the boards, they would see the decaying remains of former posts on the subject. But some gamers learn best by trying to reinvent the wheel, and need the benefit of your experience without the expression of exasperation you undoubtedly sometimes feel. When we fail, and we will fail, we will (hopefully) learn from our mistakes and become better players and GMs. And occasionally we may even surprise you. And for my fellow newcomers, either to the system or the board, I implore you to remember that by posting here you are asking, inviting, encouraging, and sometimes even demanding critical review from your peers, some of who have much more experience than you do. To ask for an opinion and discard it merely because you dislike or disagree with it is certainly *not* an efficient way to improve your own understanding of a given topic. To post about topics when you haven't really taken time to look at, much less learn, the relevant rules is likely to irritate those who have read them. And to suggest that everyone who disagrees with you must be either wrong or unable / unwilling to understand you is characteristic of fanatics and fools. Choose not to categorize yourself thusly. 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schir1964 Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... You've just described in detail the process of "Reasoning From Special Effects", which there is a free download of around here somewhere. Your post could be added to it as an example of how new players should build their characters until they get comfortable with the concept. Excellent post. I've given you reputation for this post. - Christopher Mullins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rauer Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... Well said. I found the same thing helped me. Think about what I want in real terms until I know what it is, then fiddle with options in the rules. More than that though, you are right about patience. We need it the most when we are most likely to lose it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legendsmiths Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... Welcome to the boards and well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... Welcome, and very good first post. I might point out that it ought to be required reading for every Hero veteran. Repped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... Welcome. Excellent post. I believe that Hero's blight is too much choice, and, until you learn to filter the choices, it can blind you. It is one thing to exhort to reason from effect, it is another entirely to do it. I really think that the book would be massively improved if the character creation rules were in the back not the front, and that the book started off with the mechanical rules (which are pretty straightforward), some sample characters and an introductory scenario. Get people playing, you'll get them hooked, then open up the Pandorian Box, trapping only hope inside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendou Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... Thank you for this wonderful piece of common sense! It so rare to see that associated with any roleplaying message board. I'll see about using this when I actually get my first HERO System campaign started; I've got at least one player who needs to read this...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... Welcome to enlightenment Hero style. This is how I build every character I play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aylwin13 Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... Welcome to enlightenment Hero style. This is how I build every character I play. And the ones that you don't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egyptoid Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... PS238 should be good for this approach... it has some pre-defined powers to go with, at first, then muck about with the "Legos" later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... And the ones that you don't? I've a very small stock of unplayed and built characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fredwidge Posted November 6, 2008 Report Share Posted November 6, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... ] For example, consider Xena. I thought her chakram was pretty dang cool. I think I want one. How would I build it? Well I could do an RKA or an EB or... wait, I'm getting a bit ahead of myself. What does it actually do? Well, Xena throws it, and it hits people. Or other objects. Sometimes it kills people, sometimes ... I'm learning the system atm and it is exactly the mistake reflex that I would do... Thanks for opening up my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted November 6, 2008 Report Share Posted November 6, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... Missed this the 1st time around. Good original post. This is my normal approach for building characters in general, save when I'm making a character specifically to illustrate / exemplify a mechanic. The main problem is that for me it's second nature, largely internalized, and fast which isn't always easy to convey or share with others. My standard approach for helping players build their characters is to sit down with them, take a blank sheet of paper, and ask them boxing questions to start roughing in what their character is all about. Only after we have a working thumbnail of sorts do I get into specifics of "what can they do?". I'll usually go thru that a bit, mentally translating that into mechanics and tallying up costs. If the player keeps going and I have a hunch they've creeped outside of what is doable with the available points I'll reign them in and start asking prioritization questions. As we go I'm trying to identify the core aspects of the character vs the nice to haves. Only after the player and I have a good idea of what the character is all about do I start in on mechanics, or hand it off to them to go take a swag at it. More experienced players generally just do their own design and hand it over for review / veto / approval, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted November 6, 2008 Report Share Posted November 6, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... God, I wish that was how I built characters. I'm impulsive and opinionated and rarely see the mistakes until afterwards. Still, I seem to be enjoying myself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcan Posted November 7, 2008 Report Share Posted November 7, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... That's how I try to make my characters... don't always get all the way through it, though, usually I start jotting down power builds prematurely and then it's a mad dash for the computer and Hero Designer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirgos Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... I would usually have an idea of the character before I start creation but I also find looking through the book (especially the Disadvantages, Skills & Perks) can inspire me twith new ideas. To sum up? Sometimes its good to freewheel & create on the fly:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... Welcome to the New World Order. Reminds me of MY first posts. *sniff* Oh, the memories. Insofar as patience: I have a (not entirely deserved, nor undeserved) reputation for biting the heads off of live newbies on stage, but that's largely because of something you touched on; when I (a convert, and a zealot) give an answer, often citing page & verse, I'm stunned into silence when the answer is met with not only resistance, but flat out contradiction. Please bear in mind: I (and almost all of my peers, whom I hold in ridiculously high esteem, and for those who know my misanthropic tendencies should take that as the high praise it's intended to be) only CITE the rules. We aren't telling you how you MUST use them, we're telling you what the canonical use of it is. Note the difference. We rarely say "that's wrong" -- we try and say "HERO does it this way." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roth Posted November 25, 2008 Report Share Posted November 25, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... Wow. That was brilliant. I've been playing this game for 20 some odd years now and that's the best approach I've ever read to creating a character. I've tried to say it in the past and mostly been kinda heard. That was loud and clear. Congrats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtFool Posted November 26, 2008 Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... Maybe Hero needs a set of arch-types for people to play until they are ready to take the training wheels off. Surely this has been suggested before… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted November 26, 2008 Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... Maybe Hero needs a set of arch-types for people to play until they are ready to take the training wheels off. Surely this has been suggested before… Package Deals.. come in every Genre Book. Chances are if you feel the need for "training wheels" you should be getting a genre book anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtFool Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... What I am thinking of is more than a package deal; more like the arch-types presented in Mutants & Masterminds. Most package deals are what...10%-25% of the character points? That leaves a lot of room for someone swimming in options. Someone in the 'training wheels' stage needs more than a genre book in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... Something more like the Superhero Creator from Champions? A walk through of an entire character; though the Champions one uses a Random Roll to get each elements it could be de-randomized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... Where would one find the Superhero Creator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... Champions iirc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted November 27, 2008 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 Re: A bit of advice for fellow newcomers... And Champions II had a random supers generator IIRC. (or was that Champions³) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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