difficulty of system?

[Willis]

hello everyone,

 

I've never used the hero system before, but it looks like it might be best suited for what I need. I was wanting to run a superhero campaign. I don't want anything TOO difficult to use since I'm not really a very experienced gm. how does this game rate on the confusion meter? I was looking at mutants and masterminds since I'm familiar with the d20 system, but it looks like that one's set up for min maxing. any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

thanks

 

Willis

[Argus]

Re: difficulty of system?

 

Originally posted by Willis

hello everyone,

 

I've never used the hero system before, but it looks like it might be best suited for what I need. I was wanting to run a superhero campaign. I don't want anything TOO difficult to use since I'm not really a very experienced gm. how does this game rate on the confusion meter? I was looking at mutants and masterminds since I'm familiar with the d20 system, but it looks like that one's set up for min maxing. any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

thanks

 

Willis

 

I've been playing the hero system for almost 20 years.

Anything you want to do with it you can. GM sets the points and you build your characters from there.

 

I've played all the big name games (D&D, WOD, GURPS) but the hero system is the best.

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

A.

[SirViss]

Welcome to the new GM club. I'm a member too.

 

I am new to GMing, but have played Hero for 3 or 4 years, so I know the system fairly well (though not as much as some of these people that have played 20 years or so.)

 

I find the most complicated part is designing the characters and their powers. The rest of the rules are pretty intuitive. The reason the character design is "complicated" is that you have so MANY options. The biggest hurdle (IMHO) is figuring out that everything is SFX, and there are probably more than one way to design any superpowers you can come up with. And this system can be very easily "muchkinised", so that some powers could be way more powerful than other. Often, they are built with powers that have a Stop Sign or the like in FREd.

 

If you want to start GMing with HERO, and aren't very familiar with the system, I would suggest the players keep the concept of theeir characters simple, or better yet, have them run a few games with the Champions superteam from the Champions genre book. Pregen characters do simplify things until you get a handle on the rules.

 

Anyway, this is all IMHO. Like some people have said: YMMV.

[Mr. Negative]

HERO isn't confusing to me, it's INTIMIDATING to new players. HERO has, for the most part, well laid out rules, that fit into just a few types of resolution, and also, the book has a REAL INDEX!!!!!! Take that, writers of other games!

 

However, because it is so open, many people are left to "founder around" in the system. Other game systems, particularly ones with classes, give you simple, easy choices to make about your initial character, and then present you with additional choices in small stages along the way (particularly if that system uses levels for character advancement. Compare this with Champions generation system, which largely consists of "What do you want to be?" and its advancement system, "What do you want to get better at?"

 

This open creation system is what attracts many experienced gamers to the system, but it can be overwhelming to new players (and GMs). If you are concerned about this, you may want to consider writing up some basic Superhero Package Deals or sample powers, to allow the PCs to "plug and play" with them. Alternatively, you may want to run a few adventures with pregenerated characters, so that PCs can get the feel of the system before committing to a character conception. Be prepared to help players "flesh out" a character conception with specific powers and skills ("If you want to play a Speedster, then in addition to a high SPD, you might want to consider.....").

 

This is the area where I have had the most problem as a GM, in that all my players have a long history of playing class/level systems and aren't used to defining their characters right away. Three first level dwarf fighters look largely the same, and become more different as they gain levels, skills, (and other character classes in D&D 3.5). Three 150 pt. Dwarf Fighters in HERO may look entirely different. Plus, if your players don't feel constricted by the class/level system, they may not feel that the added complexity of the HERO system is worth having.

 

Within combat itself, HERO does track a lot more detail than many popular game systems (it's a lot "crunchier" or "granular" in some parlance). In many d20 systems, you largely track Hit Points in combat, or even track down a sliding scale of OK, Bruised, Stunned, Unconscious, Dead (or whatever). In HERO, you, and the PCs, will usually be tracking both your Stun and Body, as well as your END. In addition, with every PC having multiple actions in the "Round" (which I use to mean smallest combat cycle before everyone gets to go again), there is a lot more going on than in one D&D round. Again, these rules aren't "confusing" as they are well thought out, and explained, and easy to reference. However, there is a lot more to track, which means that individual "Rounds" of combat take longer to resolve than in D&D. As a benefit, combat is generally more descriptive and detailed than in most d20 systems, so you have concrete game effects for a lot of cool maneuvers, tactics, and options.

 

Again, if your players don't mind the "low detail" of, say, D&D, where, in general, you move around and hit the opponent until they are dead (or someone turns someone into a newt), they may again, not appreciate the added flexibility of the HERO system and view it as additional chores. This problem also arose in my FH game, where the players, all used to D&D, consistently put all their levels in OCV (because a good to hit roll is best) and used their most damaging weapon and maneuver (because a good damage roll is best) and didn't see any real benefit to the added stats of the HERO system (as the goal of the fight was to drop the opponent to zero BODY).

 

I LOVE the HERO system, and it is always the system that I compare other systems against (I was looking at D&D 3.5 and all I kept coming back to was "This is a cool idea, but it is so much easier to implement in HERO", "This rule is really complex and would be totally straightforward in HERO", "This mechanism is necessary to maintain a class/level structure and you wouldn't need it in HERO". I had the same experience with Mutants and Masterminds and Silver Age Sentinels, in that I felt that one (M&M) restricted your character conceptions to fairly limited archetypes, and the other (SAS) resorted to GM handwaving over detailed, tested, balanced rules. In both cases, I saw better ways to handle the rules in the HERO system.

 

On the other hand, the best system is one that you and your players all have fun playing. Look at what your gaming style is, and what you and your players would like to have in a game, that you don't have now. Champions may match up with that pretty well, or it may not.

[OddHat]

You've been given good advice so far, but I'd add one thing that hasn't been mentioned. The Champions genre book has a quick superhuman creation system; this is a great tool for Hero beginners. Use it. The characters you come up with can be refined later, and you'll be walked through the most complicated part of the game. This board and the web are also full of great write-ups of heroes and villains; they can make your job much easier.

 

As a general note, I've played most Superhero systems over the years, and in play Hero really does do the best job of capturing the feel of the comics out of the box.

[RevHooligan]

Welcome abourd Willis! I've been playing on and off since 1983 and I think you'll find the reason there are so many of us elderly gamers on this board is that NOTHING CAN TOUCH HERO! It's the straight up, hands down ass kickingest game around.

 

The "Eeek, math!" reaction many have can be soothed by buying the UNTIL SuperPower Database book. It has all you need for "plug in and play" superhero designs. Pick up Champions as well.

 

Combat takes a little time to get used to, but you'll get the hang of it. Back in 83, we popped open the box and just ran combats with the characters in the book until we got it. Spend an afternoon with a few friends using premade heros with no plot. By the time you run out of Doritos and Mountain Dew, you'll be ready to run a real campaign.

 

Good luck and don't forget to add your new campaign's quotes to the "Quote of the week" thread!

[badger3k]

Originally posted by RevHooligan

Welcome abourd Willis! I've been playing on and off since 1983 and I think you'll find the reason there are so many of us elderly gamers on this board is that NOTHING CAN TOUCH HERO! It's the straight up, hands down ass kickingest game around.

 

The "Eeek, math!" reaction many have can be soothed by buying the UNTIL SuperPower Database book. It has all you need for "plug in and play" superhero designs. Pick up Champions as well.

 

Combat takes a little time to get used to, but you'll get the hang of it. Back in 83, we popped open the box and just ran combats with the characters in the book until we got it. Spend an afternoon with a few friends using premade heros with no plot. By the time you run out of Doritos and Mountain Dew, you'll be ready to run a real campaign.

 

Good luck and don't forget to add your new campaign's quotes to the "Quote of the week" thread!

 

Ditto on that - I've been playing Champions off and on for 20+years. This system is the best that I've found for superheroes. The only thing I can add is to look here often - and ask for advice. Given that most people seem to have extensive experience with the system, you may get more advice than you need, but thats better than the alternative:D .

 

It is different than the d20 system (currently playing a 3e/3.5 game for the last year or so after 20+ years away from D&D, and have/played M&M and SAS also). If you (and your players) have trouble with the system, give it a chance - or if someone nearby games champs (or online as I do with voice chat) see if you can game with somebody experienced.

 

Just some ideas - and as the others said, welcome aboard.

[MoonHunter]

One good piece of advice

 

Every GM, in any system but especially hero, needs to know the mantra of character warding.

 

"This character is perfectly legal (or substitute acceptable), but I am not comfortable with it in my game."

 

When in the slightest doubt, repeat this charm as many times as needed to ward off characters that you do not like, that utilize rules (and loopholes) to min-max their functionality, or do not fit your "vision" for the campaign or the existing characters.

 

Stand firm on your decisions.

 

This will prevent you have having issues further down the line with the character, having stopped them before they became a problem in your game.

 

May I suggest you visit http://www.openroleplaying.org/tools/tips/ and do three searchs for Builds better characters, weaving, and Capes and Cowls. This will provide about a hundred tips on how to characters with proper depth, putting the group together, and how to play in a super heroic genre. The site has had some issues recently, so all the tips are not back online.But the ones that are there should be sufficient for you.

[Doc Democracy]

I have been running Champions for a group of 12-15 year olds at the local church roleplay club. They have had no problems dealing with the mechanics of Champions in gameplay but they are completely overwhelmed about character creation - too much to think about.

 

My advice is to work on the rules yourself and ask the players what they want to play. The most difficult part is in asking the right questions.

 

I get all my players to right down (in story form) what they want their character to be able to do and then go away and design all the characters myself. This takes away the intimidation some players feel about the system and takes away the potential of players, who know more about the system, abusing your lack of knowledge.

 

I then expect to make several re-writes of each character as, during play, players are likely to say "But my hero SHOULD be able to do THAT!" and if I agree then it's time for a re-write - asking them what ability they want to lose - or to make less powerful to allow for the new ability to be added.

 

Essentially the system is no more than rolling 3D6 for task rolls and a variable number of D6 for effects. Players have to keep track of Endurance, Stun and Body. It's easy to play, the complexity is all in the background and provides you with all kinds of options that may make you, like the rest of us here, convinced that the benefits far outweigh the costs.

 

Good luck and remember the best piece of advice you've been given is to come back and keep asking questions.

[Lord Liaden]

Welcome to the HERO GM fraternity, Willis! We'll let you know when the next kegger is being held.

 

You've been given much good advice on this thread. As previously mentioned, the most complex and time consuming part of the HERO System is character generation because of all the options you're offered. Combat has a lot of elements to keep track of, but once you're familiar with it it goes pretty smoothly, and you can tailor the optional parts of it to the level of detail that you want. That's something good to remember about the HERO System: there are a multitude of rules options that you can add or remove to fine tune the game until it plays the way you want. There's even a chapter in the HERO System Fifth Edition rulebook (often referred to as "FREd" on these boards) on how to change various rules elements, and the effect such changes will have on game play.

 

My advice to you would be to start simple. Have your players build their initial characters without a lot of the bells and whistles: no Power Frameworks, none of the Powers marked in the rulebook with a Yield or Stop sign. Avoid using any of the Optional Combat Maneuvers, Hit Locations etc. listed in the book - stick with the basics. Run a few sample combats to help you and your players get used to it; you might want to leave out expending Endurance as this is one less element to keep track of.

 

There are a number of resources besides FREd available to you to make your job easier and your games more enjoyable:

 

The Champions genre book is tailor made for new GMs. It's loaded with advice on how to run superhero games, build campaign worlds, achieve the flavor of various superhero subgenres, on the various character archetypes, how to tailor the rules to match the genre conventions, and on and on. It has example pre-generated heroes and villains, powers, gadgets, vehicles and bases. As previously mentioned, it includes a random character generator which can greatly reduce the time it takes to build characters.

 

The UNTIL Superpowers Database is a sourcebook for Champions that is absolutely crammed with sample prewritten super powers covering a wide range of special effects. You can almost always find a power similar to what a player wants his character to have, or one that the player wouldn't have thought of himself, and with minor adjustments plug it right into the character sheet. Great source of ideas and tremendous time saver.

 

The HERO Designer software available through the Online Store on this website greatly eases character and power design, as you just enter what you want on the character sheet and it does all the math for you, then creates a printable character sheet. While I'm a pencil and paper man myself, many people on these boards swear by it. And you can buy packs of templates for many of the characters already printed in HERO books (just the stats, no background descriptions) which you can easily modify into custom heroes and villains.

 

Fellow board member nyakki has designed a pretty cool random character generating program, Hero Helper. If you want to create sample characters for your players to use in their first sessions, you may find it worth checking out:

http://www.trimira.com/hero_stuff/champions_random.html

 

Finally, here's a previous discussion board thread of advice for new Hero GMs:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3304&highlight=new+game+master

 

And I repeat what's already been said: you're always welcome to come back here and ask us any question. We all love showing off our knowledge.

[Talon]

As others have said, it's really the character creation rules that are complex. The rest of the system is no more complex than d20.

 

With the release of the UNTIL Superpowers Database, character creation became incredibly simpler. That book gives you hundreds of sample powers that you can directly take and use in your own characters. For a newcomer to the system, it's the first book after FREd that I would recommend.

 

Plus, you've got these boards, where people will be more than happy to answer all your questions!

[RevHooligan]

Originally posted by Doc Democracy

 

I then expect to make several re-writes of each character as, during play, players are likely to say "But my hero SHOULD be able to do THAT!" and if I agree then it's time for a re-write - asking them what ability they want to lose - or to make less powerful to allow for the new ability to be added.

 

 

I have a house rule even my experienced Hero gamers use: If you haven't used the power/gadget in game yet, you can redesign it. I also did rewrites for my 2 hero newbies after I saw points gone to waste.

 

Don't be afraid to ask for help here. The reason this thread has so many responses is we Hero geeks LOVE new converts! A new Hero GM means four or five new players. And you never know when they might end up sitting at your table.

[zornwil]

Hi Willis, I can't add anything to what others wrote, however, you might want to post the things you like or "expect" to deal wtih re GMing and what things you don't like to think about when GMing. Also, what sort of game (power level/genre) you want to play. That way we could suggest how well HERO might fit and what things you might want to tailor.

 

I'll just add the two cents that I think HERO is a bit rough to GM if you're not experienced in that or in HERO itself. The best way to make it less rough is to dispense with a lot of the more detailed combat rules (ignore END; ignore STUNning even) the first time or two or three through. In fact, main message I would have is, do NOT get hung up on the rules. Sure, there are a lot of them, but the core system is strong enough to work well without sweating all the details.

[drrushing]

Hero System

 

Hey Willis, I have played and GMed Hero System for the better part of 20 years. The Hero System is hands down the best. With enough patience and perserverance, You or you players can literally create ANY powers, skills, talents, or special abilities you could dream of. The only downside is that you are in for a lot of mathematics. Nothing difficult, just a lot of number crunching.(i.e.-the more complicated the character, the more math involved.) Just remember, as the GM, YOU SET all the limits. You can allow or disallow any set of powers, skills, etc., if you feel they may unbalance your game. You can also set "house rules" as long as every PC agrees, simplifying rules and the like to streamline your gaming experience. The Hero System in infinately expandable, only your fears can hold you back.

[RevHooligan]

So, you've had some good advice, some time to think it through...

 

What we all want to know is: Are ya gonna go for it?

 

If you need any more encouragment, I'm sure everyone who replied to this thread would post a villian for you. Think about it, all of our best baddies for free, cutting your work in half. Just one more incentive to become one of us.

 

 

ONE OF US! ONE OF US! ONE OF US!

[Killer Shrike]

I love the HERO System, and have used it for almost all genres and at almost all power levels over the last 13 years. IMO its the most flexible and powerful RPG system on the market-- at least that Ive ever encountered.

 

That having been said, its also very easy to screw up. If you have trepidations, I recommend you start small, with young characters built at 200 to 250 points, with tight Active Point caps, dont allow ANY of the optional rules, and use very simple characters, going very easy on the power modifiers.

 

After a few sessions of play, advance the campaign 5 years into the future, giving out 50 more points or so, relaxing Active Point caps, and "turning on" combat options that you as the GM have had time to become more comfortable with, plus experience with the system in general.

 

Run a few more sessions, and do it again, bringing the characters up to 350 points -- standard starting supers. Relax Active Point caps again (perhaps getting rid of them entirely), and turn on any remainging options you want to use.

 

 

Good luck, and remember, HERO Games will make you smarter as a gamer -- it gives you the guts of the system and establishes the means by which they work. If you get in to it, youll never look at other game systems the same way again.....

[Killer Shrike]

Almost forgot: MOST IMPORTANT THING: Get buy in from your players. If they arent in to it, even if you do the best job in the world, it will be frustrating experience in the end......get them involved and get them excited.

[Doc Democracy]

One more thing

 

One of the things that I remember doing badly when we first started playing Champions was disadvantages.

 

Because teh rules said we HAD to balance all of our points with disadvantages and experience and that we could use up to 150 points of disads, that's exactly what we did.

 

We spent 250 points and found 150 points of disadvantages whether or not they were in character or not. And we had some pretty screwed up characters because of it.

 

As we got more used to the game and the ideas within the game we found it easier to describe disadvantages that actually rounded the characters and embedded them into the campaign.

 

My advice is don't sweat the disadvantages on the first few characters. Give them a few that definitely seem to fit the character - hunteds are often easy - as are psychological disads such as heroic and code against killing. But if you can't think of enough then don't worry too much about it - you might get ideas when the characters are in play.

[Tom McCarthy]

This board is full of people who will give you good advice. If you have a question about anything, come here and ask it. You'll get lots of good advice (or, occasionally, the first guy to answer will nail it and no one else will have anything to add).

 

If you're willing to try Hero System and run superheroes, you probably need the rulebook (Hero System 5th Edition, frequently referred to as Fred on these boards) and Champions (a book describing ins and outs of running superhero games; includes random character generation tables and 10-12 sample characters). Try a few combats, maybe a simple investigation or mystery. Then try character creation, perhaps running your sample character by the rest of us.

 

If you're doing well, you can then think about UNTIL Superpowers Database (prebuilt powers for character creation) or Conquerors, Killers and Crooks (prebuilt supervillains), then maybe Champions Universe (a possible setting) and Millennium City (a key place in Champions Universe) or Champions Battlegrounds (5 adventures set in interesting locations) or Shades of Black (a challenging adventure for superheroes).

[Doug McCrae]

Re: difficulty of system?

 

Originally posted by Willis

how does this game rate on the confusion meter?

Maximum, I'd say. Maybe some competition from Chivalry & Sorcery and Rolemaster.

I was looking at mutants and masterminds since I'm familiar with the d20 system, but it looks like that one's set up for min maxing. any input would be greatly appreciated.

The current superhero games - Silver Age Sentinels, Mutants & Masterminds and Champions - are all vulnerable to the determined min maxer. Champions more so than the others as the more complicated rules render rules abuses more opaque. I'd recommend you use Mutants & Masterminds as your greater experience of d20 will enable you to police the game more effectively.

[Storn]

I think the core of Hero is VERY simple. Let me state the core of the game:

 

5 pts = 1d6 of power.

3d6 for task resolution.

 

Everything, EVERYTHING works off of that basic premise. Things of lesser utility cost less than 5 pts. Things of more utility cost more.

 

All the rest, stats, skills, talents, advantages, disadvantages, limitations...all build on that basic premise.

 

The options are almost unlimited and here is where the confusion lies. So the others advice of really putting thought into *what* kind of game you and your players want to have is key.

 

What kind of game do you want to run? If you state that "mission statement", then the board here can give you all kinds of advice on how to utilize Hero to reflect that.

[zornwil]

Re: Re: difficulty of system?

 

Originally posted by Doug McCrae

Maximum, I'd say. Maybe some competition from Chivalry & Sorcery and Rolemaster.

The current superhero games - Silver Age Sentinels, Mutants & Masterminds and Champions - are all vulnerable to the determined min maxer. Champions more so than the others as the more complicated rules render rules abuses more opaque. I'd recommend you use Mutants & Masterminds as your greater experience of d20 will enable you to police the game more effectively.

 

I would say I thoroughly disagree regarding rules abuse. I think M&M is not only as easy to abuse but harder to determine abuse in given much of the all-or-nothing nature of powers therein as well as the lack of definition in many powers (which is also a strength, but you can see some of the confusion caused that is typical of a first version of a product). I think HERO is much easier to police as the points are better balanced and the text of 5th edition gives MUCH good detail on powers and things to look out for.

 

As far as confusion, hard to say. I think if you try to learn everything, yes, it is one of the more confusing games out there, but my sense is that as the text is better explicated than most games, the confusion is under check if you just start out without using options and stick to the essentials.

[RevHooligan]

ONE OF US! ONE OF US! ONE OF US!