6E Rules changes confirmed so far

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

True, but in my personal case , since I want the connection it means reinventing the wheel with at the absolute minimum extensive campaign guide lines or even templates ( maybe using unified power) to avoid combinations that offend my aesthetics.

 

6e needs to give me something to make up for the extra trouble for me personally. I'll get the first book eventually but probably in PDF. You early buyer will need to spread the word about what is wonderful for us dullards who don't see anything worth switching for yet.

 

I think that's a valid approach, and certainly suited to the genre. The figured characteristics approach was appropriate to comic and other cinematic genres. I don't think the level of granularity needs to be that fine in many cases.

 

Personally, I'm curious about what this is going to do with CSL costs, etc, and my gut feeling is that the old way will prove to be less hassle. On the other hand, that's firmly rooted in conjecture and if not fear of change, at least a healthy dose of trepidation.

 

It'll be nice to get a more extensive document closer to release (or after), detailing the differences between fifth and sixth.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Let's see...

 

 

They could all be real people and thus difficult to model in an abstract system on a piece of paper.

 

 

I refused to accept that they're real people without photographic evidence.

[ajackson]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

RE: Tazers' date=' I model them as Entangles.[/quote']

I model them as Energy Blast, Stun Only. Seriously, they're not NND -- anything that will stop a lightning bolt (generally defined as either an EB or RKA) will stop a taser just fine.

[Alibear]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

The thinking with a taser is that it incapacitates you not knocks you out cold. That's why I'd use entangle.

[NestorDRod]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Well it is a good argument.

 

The problem with using the "real world" as an example if that Hero mechanics, any rpgs mechanics are just approximation and representations. They really don't have "real world" equivalents since they're represent many things. You can't look at anyone and objectively rate their "Dex score" in the real world. Strength is the closet characteristic to having an objective real world measure and even that simplifies allot of things. So what designers have to concentrate on (IMO) is fairness, consistency and playability. Theme and mood are also important in games that aim to emulate a specific genre or setting.

 

Exactly. This is what goes through my mind every time someone presents an example from "real life" to illustrate some point about the rules.

 

Hero System was designed to emulate action genres (supers, westerns, space opera, what have you). In these genres, the quick, agile guy is almost always combat-capable, whether it's the speedster superhero, Western gunfighter, or superspy ninja.

 

If someone wants to use Hero to model "real life," fine, knock yourself out, but don't expect it to fit smoothly.

 

I refer to this as the Grenade rule, inspired by the flavor text for the Grenade card in the old Shadowfist CCG: "Grenades work better in the movies than in real life. This ain't real life."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Those individuals who have a high DEX and yet are poor at hitting their target and poor at avoiding attacks are simply saddled with a Physical Limitation. The Frequency depends on how often they are likely to be in combat and the severity is a factor of just how inept a combatant (how much minus they take to OCV and DCV) that they are.

 

In a game, but not necessarily in real life, those individuals are rare. Instead of decoupling it is easier to simply give them a Physical Limitation (or Complication, if you prefer) and be done with it.

 

Or they don't actually have a high DEX' date=' since they don't have all the things a high DEX brings. Maybe they have skills or skill levels instead? (Like lapsedgamer said, and yeah, I'm reading and responding to the thread in reverse order. =p)[/quote']

 

I would have liked to see Figured Characteristics remain coupled, including CV, but also add the option to buy CV independently. That approach, to me, would have mandated repricing Primary characteristics and their derived abilities to reduce or eliminate the discount provided by the primary characteristic.

 

Adding a beneficial ability should never reduce the point cost of the character. A character with a high OCV and high DCV is, under 5e rules, more expensive than a character with a high OCV and DCV, plus good DEX rolls and faster initiative order. As a result, characters with high OCV and DCV are encouraged to also be good at anything requiring DEX (for example, ballet dancing).

 

While removal of coupling is not my first choice, this approach should also ensure that characters must pay for benefits. There will now be a point to building a character with high OCV and DCV, but not high DEX skills or initiative order. Hopefully, this will extend to all characteristics (eg. the cost of a level with INT or Interaction skills will be less than the cost of +5 INT or +5 PRE).

 

IOW, the fact that Fonzie is a competent street fighter should not require him to be a champion surfer and water skier. The system should discourage, not encourage, that result.

[NestorDRod]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I think that's a valid approach, and certainly suited to the genre. The figured characteristics approach was appropriate to comic and other cinematic genres. I don't think the level of granularity needs to be that fine in many cases.

 

Or, to mash it down to a pithy saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

[OddHat]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Exactly. This is what goes through my mind every time someone presents an example from "real life" to illustrate some point about the rules.

 

Hero System was designed to emulate action genres (supers, westerns, space opera, what have you). In these genres, the quick, agile guy is almost always combat-capable, whether it's the speedster superhero, Western gunfighter, or superspy ninja.

 

If someone wants to use Hero to model "real life," fine, knock yourself out, but don't expect it to fit smoothly.

 

I refer to this as the Grenade rule, inspired by the flavor text for the Grenade card in the old Shadowfist CCG: "Grenades work better in the movies than in real life. This ain't real life."

 

Great quote.

 

Just getting people to agree about the Real World is an incredible pain. Humans are not reliable observers of their own experiences; throw urban legends, lies and hearsay into the mix, and you might as well be talking about fiction.

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I like the decoupled CVs/Figureds. I think it makes much more sense.

 

Just sayin'.

[Alibear]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Exactly. This is what goes through my mind every time someone presents an example from "real life" to illustrate some point about the rules.

 

Hero System was designed to emulate action genres (supers, westerns, space opera, what have you). In these genres, the quick, agile guy is almost always combat-capable, whether it's the speedster superhero, Western gunfighter, or superspy ninja.

 

If someone wants to use Hero to model "real life," fine, knock yourself out, but don't expect it to fit smoothly.

 

 

Hero sells itself as a Universal toolkit not as an action genre toolkit no matter what it's roots are.

 

The Hero system works tremendously well simulating reality if we're careful and thoughtful about what we build and why we build it that way.

[nexus]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I would have preferred to see Figured characteristics as an optional rule rather than cut all together as they are suited for some genres and styles*. But then again, perhaps they are some fashion since the entire product hasn't been just yet.

 

*For example if I was playing the Marvel Universe Figs make sense there since the majority of the time they line (Big strong guys are durable, Quick guys are combat capable) and there are ways to build the exceptions. If I was running Godlike Hero then decoupling them make sense because in that setting being really strong is no guarantee that you're also durable, etc, etc.

 

Edit: From a purely game logic stand point, decoupling fits more into the "You get what you pay for" logic of Hero System but then it's just one place to draw the line in the sand. More things could be broken down and "decoupled" but the price would be increased complexity (and higher starting point totals to compensate).

[nexus]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Hero sells itself as a Universal toolkit not as an action genre toolkit no matter what it's roots are.

.

 

Well, it's design goal of simulating "Dramatic realism" has been stated several times even by Long himself. Hero System is universal in the extent that it doesn't have a default setting or genre but even universal system have a general mood or style they promote. GURPS aims (or aimed I haven' followed 4th edition) more for realism than Hero System or BESM. And as Oddhat correctly pointed out "realistic" is hard to pin down. I've come to believe verisimilitude is a better target than realism but that's just IMO.

[megaplayboy]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I believe the term "cinematic realism" has been tossed around before.

 

I've always thought the primary goal of Hero System is effective genre simulation. That's why I chuckle whenever someone starts out by saying, for example, "...but in reality, nobody's ever attractive to everybody."

Perhaps that's true for real life, but in various genres, it's absolutely the case that there are characters who are either completely irresistable or nigh-irresistable. That's actually a staple of a lot of genres like pulp, fantasy, comics, espionage, etc.

It's also why there are talents like Combat Luck: the hero who gets shot, stabbed and thrown off a three story building, but is still running around fighting and talking trash. In reality, this is obviously impossible (or at least incredibly implausible). But in genre, perfectly normative.

Now, if you want a "realistic" or "semi-realistic" game, you can toss out most superhuman talents, peg guns and objects and vehicles to what you believe are their realistic ratings, limit PCs to stats that are plausibly achievable in the real world, and include all the combat options necessary to make fighting as nasty, brutish and short as it often is in the real world (bleeding, hit locations, disabling and impairing wounds, etc.).

But since I don't think realism is the primary goal of the system, I wouldn't recommend it as the "default setting" for the rules. I think we'd wind up with a lot of disappointed genre fiends and enthusiasts.

Yes, Spiderman can lift 10 tons over his head, and if he punched someone in the face with even one-tenth of his strength, he'd kill them instantly in a "realistic" setting. But he's not in a realistic setting, and we have rules for pulling punches, so that Peter Parker doesn't have to constantly sneak into the laundry room late at night to wash out all the blood stains and bits of brain from his costume.

[Alibear]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

And as Oddhat correctly pointed out "realistic" is hard to pin down.

 

I certainly can't argue with that.

 

Dramatic realism in a Judge Dredd game is totally different from drmatic realism or CoC or paranoia. The realism of a young lad who learns magic is diiferent frm the realism of Conan. Hero should be able to handle both sorts of games.

[megaplayboy]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

The thinking with a taser is that it incapacitates you not knocks you out cold. That's why I'd use entangle.

 

But it also frickin' hurts, and it takes a while to fully recover from, even after you can move again. That suggests it also does some STUN damage.

 

Maybe some sort of funky Based on CON Entangle with a fade rate(so that eventually you can move again, regardless of whether you "broke out"), linked to a couple dice of stun only energy damage?

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I've seen police training videos where guys take a taser, get up and walk away.

And I've seen police training videos where guys pee their pants and are reduced to tears for several minutes.

 

you will never ever ever never model a tazer correctly in a game system to cover all the really weird reactions people have to being kicked with a couple thousand volts of electricity. It has as much to do with the target as it does the tazer's effect.

[nexus]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

But it also frickin' hurts, and it takes a while to fully recover from, even after you can move again. That suggests it also does some STUN damage.

 

Maybe some sort of funky Based on CON Entangle with a fade rate(so that eventually you can move again, regardless of whether you "broke out"), linked to a couple dice of stun only energy damage?

 

Personally, I just use a Stun-only NND energy blast. Its close enough for government work. Get jolted enough and you can lay around and groan in pain for awhile and eventually get up. Make the dice high enough to typically stun a normal.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

Great quote.

 

Just getting people to agree about the Real World is an incredible pain. Humans are not reliable observers of their own experiences; throw urban legends, lies and hearsay into the mix, and you might as well be talking about fiction.

 

I agree that's about right - getting agreement over the real world - despite our shared experience of it is difficult.

 

OTOH, Hero needs to try.

 

Many games have a context already - they are based on a book, or a film, or a video game or a comic, or an idea - and all of those things have an already-in-existance internal logic. That means ther is comparatively little we need to agree on - the number of examples is limited, the rules have probably been written to accomodate them.

 

Hero doesn't have that context.

 

The real world is much more complex than any book, film or comic, which is why it is so much more difficult to model. However, it is the nearest to common ground that Hero has. Hero, by its nature, doesn't have a common consensus reality, and it would be wrong to create one with a core set of rules that emulate any given genre - although good reason indeed to create a number of genre specific rules. I want a system that does basically what I expect it to,even if I do not know the rules. More to the point, I want players to be able to play without knowing the rules: I want someone playing a normal human detective to know - without having the first clue about DEF values - that they can probably kick down a door but probably can not kick down a wall.

 

Maybe even reality is a genre: we don't need to model it but we certainly need to be able to model it with a few additional rules. The basic rules set shouldn't be cinematic or even particularly action oriented, it should be a basic, solid rule set - which it is - and a little campaign guidance and some specialist rules are all we need to mod the game for a specific genre.

 

Oh, I don't know, pie in the sky. Ignore me. Carry on.

[archermoo]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I've seen police training videos where guys take a taser, get up and walk away.

And I've seen police training videos where guys pee their pants and are reduced to tears for several minutes.

 

you will never ever ever never model a tazer correctly in a game system to cover all the really weird reactions people have to being kicked with a couple thousand volts of electricity. It has as much to do with the target as it does the tazer's effect.

 

It's not the voltage that gets you. It's the amps.

 

[OddHat]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

OTOH' date=' Hero needs to try.[/quote']

 

No it doesn't.

 

Hero doesn't have that context.

 

Yes it does. Heroic fiction. It's right there in the title.

 

I want someone playing a normal human detective to know - without having the first clue about DEF values - that they can probably kick down a door but probably can not kick down a wall.

 

Depends on the person, the door, and the wall.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I've seen police training videos where guys take a taser, get up and walk away.

And I've seen police training videos where guys pee their pants and are reduced to tears for several minutes.

 

you will never ever ever never model a tazer correctly in a game system to cover all the really weird reactions people have to being kicked with a couple thousand volts of electricity. It has as much to do with the target as it does the tazer's effect.

 

Whilst I agree, I don't think you necessarily need to model every possible permutation: a taser could kill someone, but that is so rare that modeling it is probably more trouble than it is worth.

 

Basically though it causes painful muscular spasms and how effective it is is probably a function of where it hits and how good the contact is.

 

We can model that. Even if someone looking at it thinks it is not quite right, it should model a decent spread of reality.

 

One problem with Hero is that you recover Stun really quickly and Body really slowly and, unless you are using adjustment powers, there is nothing in between.

 

A taser probably doesn't cause any Body damage, as a rule, can cause quite a bit of stun, can certainly stun a target, and sometimes targets are more affected than other times and some targets recover quickly and some more slowly.

 

Taser: (Total: 30 Active Cost, 9 Real Cost)

Energy Blast 2d6 (10 Active Points); OAF (-1), 4 clips of 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Extra Phase (-3/4) (Real Cost: 4) PLUS

Energy Blast 2d6, STUN Only (+0) (10 Active Points); Activation Roll 11- (-1), OAF (-1), 4 clips of 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Extra Phase (-3/4) (Real Cost: 3) PLUS

Energy Blast 2d6 (10 Active Points); Activation Roll 11- (-1), OAF (-1), 4 clips of 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Extra Phase (-3/4), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Only for calculating if target stunned; -1/2) (Real Cost: 2)

 

That means that a taser does a bit of energy damage (2d6) and can (11 or less) do 2d6 more and on a seperate activation roll can do 2d6 for stunning only. It does that for 2 phases, so can deliver up to 4d6x2 stun (which can be enough to cause a normal to pass out) and can do enough stun in a single attack (up to 6d6) to stun a normal target. The attacks are not linked - they are effectively partially limited parts of a single attack, so you only apply defences once.

 

It could stand a little polish, of course, I can think of other limtiations, like it not affecting anyone with any non-conductive rDEF (the barbs have to stick in), limited range and so on, but it is near enough.

 

The real test is this: if you play it in a game, with a player who doesn't know the rules or doesn't know the build, will it do what they (generally) expect. I think it will. We don't have to get reality right - we just have to stand close enough that the difference is rarely apparent.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

No it doesn't.

 

IYO. Like it or not, Hero is a model of reality. Might not be a good one, but then refinement is always possible.

 

 

 

Yes it does. Heroic fiction. It's right there in the title.

 

Hero, not Heroic Fiction Simulation Game. Reality has heroes too. As a universal system, Hero does not heve any particular context before you start building with it.

 

 

 

Depends on the person' date=' the door, and the wall. [/quote']

 

Well, yes, but then that is the point I was making: it is all about fulfilling reasonable expectations. A crumbling brick wall is something most people would imagine they could kick down, given time, a steel vault door they knw they can not. A four year old will have more trouble than an adult.

 

Hero needs to fulfil reasonable expectations, and, given that it is not a system based on a consenus reality, will take most of its expectations from something like reality.

[megaplayboy]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

I agree that's about right - getting agreement over the real world - despite our shared experience of it is difficult.

 

OTOH, Hero needs to try.

 

Many games have a context already - they are based on a book, or a film, or a video game or a comic, or an idea - and all of those things have an already-in-existance internal logic. That means ther is comparatively little we need to agree on - the number of examples is limited, the rules have probably been written to accomodate them.

 

Hero doesn't have that context.

 

The real world is much more complex than any book, film or comic, which is why it is so much more difficult to model. However, it is the nearest to common ground that Hero has. Hero, by its nature, doesn't have a common consensus reality, and it would be wrong to create one with a core set of rules that emulate any given genre - although good reason indeed to create a number of genre specific rules. I want a system that does basically what I expect it to,even if I do not know the rules. More to the point, I want players to be able to play without knowing the rules: I want someone playing a normal human detective to know - without having the first clue about DEF values - that they can probably kick down a door but probably can not kick down a wall.

 

Maybe even reality is a genre: we don't need to model it but we certainly need to be able to model it with a few additional rules. The basic rules set shouldn't be cinematic or even particularly action oriented, it should be a basic, solid rule set - which it is - and a little campaign guidance and some specialist rules are all we need to mod the game for a specific genre.

 

Oh, I don't know, pie in the sky. Ignore me. Carry on.

 

I'd just like to point out that, AFAIK, the two most popular genre settings for Hero system are Champions and Fantasy Hero, both of which are pretty far removed from reality as we know it. Now, we can have a basic rule set that has no particular bias towards one genre or another, but it seems like writing one up with a built-in bias towards "realism" would be a bit antithetical to what the majority of established Hero gamers are going to be using it for (playing superheroes, wizards, warriors, etc.). So I'd suggest that provisions for making settings more realistic be optional or an example of toolkitting.

 

What I don't ever want to see is the GURPS approach, where every new genre has a whole additional set of rules, and nothing is really all that compatible or portable to another genre.

[OddHat]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

IYO. Like it or not' date=' Hero is a model of reality. Might not be a good one, but then refinement is always possible.[/quote']

 

The reality found in movies, action adventure novels, etc. Not the reality we live in. Such is the stated opinion of the guy actually writing the rules.

 

As a universal system, Hero does not heve any particular context before you start building with it.

 

See above.

 

Hero needs to fulfil reasonable expectations, and, given that it is not a system based on a consenus reality, will take most of its expectations from something like reality.

 

Sure. That something like reality is Heroic Fiction.

[ajackson]

Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far

 

The thinking with a taser is that it incapacitates you not knocks you out cold.

Punching someone doesn't knock them out either, unless you hit them in the head and give them a concussion. Stun damage is largely a genre convention.