rjcurrie Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 While surfing the Internet to see what might be being said elsewehre about Hero System 6th Edition, I came across a PDF entitled In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages For Super-Powered HERO System Play by James Edward Raggi IV which outlines his feelings on Disadvantages in Champions games. He raises some interestig points, some I agree with, some I don't. However, in glancing over the document, I was surprised to see a reference to my web site, www.supersquadamerica.com, and my SuperSquad America convention game characters. He seemed to like the way I handled their Disadvantages. In any event, I thought other Champions players might enjoy reading this PDF. It can be found here: http://www.lotfp.com/RPG/pdf/InCharacter.pdf. A brief description of the origin of the document can be seen here: http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/lotfp-rpg/387684-character-look-hero-system-disadvantages.html. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages ... Thank you for sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zed-F Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages ... The unfortunate ranty tone makes it a bit of a difficult read. His points tend to get lost in the noise as a result, I found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teh bunneh Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages ... The unfortunate ranty tone makes it a bit of a difficult read. His points tend to get lost in the noise as a result' date=' I found.[/quote'] Ditto. I'm sure he's got a good point in there somewhere. It's just hard to find amidst all the foaming-at-the-mouth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan D. Hurricanes Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Seriously? "Veteran players of these systems have mentally blocked out the pain and turned the system into something that works for them..." That's a statement of such blind ignorance that I'm seriously stunned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretID Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Re: In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages ... The right column - critiquing Champions write-ups - was just ranty and annoying. The left column was pretty good, but I'm someone who thinks the Disad system is by far the weakest part of Hero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston GM Posted June 19, 2009 Report Share Posted June 19, 2009 Left hand side I agree with secretID. The left column is a decent read. The right column is a space-wasting rant. Veteran players of these systems have mentally blocked out the pain and turned the system into something that functions for them, I'd say most veterans use disadvantages the same way he does, so we don't see the system as broken. If I understand the character, the disads write themselves. I had one NPC (The Count) that had 270 points of disads, and 90 of them were PsychLims. He wasn't broken. He was complicated. As a new player I saw disads as something that could be used against me. Then I encountered a PC that had an interesting disad ... PsychLim: cute chicks, common, strong. The player had a blast with that one. That's been my inspiration ever since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages ... I tried to read it, but the author needs to learn the art of revision, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages ... I tried to read it' date=' but the author needs to learn the art of revision, IMO.[/quote'] If you go to the other link, the message board post where the author announced the essay, he states that it is in a rough form, caveat emptor. It's at about the quality of a message board rant, simply longer than any message board post has any right to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages ... I found it ranty and showed a pretty much lack of understanding while his quotes tended to gravitate towards stories I disliked. Oh well. Thanks for sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted June 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages ... The right column - critiquing Champions write-ups - was just ranty and annoying. The left column was pretty good' date=' but I'm someone who thinks the Disad system is by far the weakest part of Hero.[/quote'] Well, except for its mention of SuperSquad America, of course. But I might be a wee bit biased on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted June 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages ... If you go to the other link' date=' the message board post where the author announced the essay, he states that it is in a rough form, [i']caveat emptor[/i]. It's at about the quality of a message board rant, simply longer than any message board post has any right to be. I dropped the author a quick line to thank him for his mention of SuperSquad America. In his reply, he apologized for the "excited" and antagonistic tone of the writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted June 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: Left hand side I agree with secretID. The left column is a decent read. The right column is a space-wasting rant. [/color][/font][/color][/font][/color][/font][/color][/font] I'd say most veterans use disadvantages the same way he does, so we don't see the system as broken. If I understand the character, the disads write themselves. I had one NPC (The Count) that had 270 points of disads, and 90 of them were PsychLims. He wasn't broken. He was complicated. As a new player I saw disads as something that could be used against me. Then I encountered a PC that had an interesting disad ... PsychLim: cute chicks, common, strong. The player had a blast with that one. That's been my inspiration ever since. I would completely agree. There is a fair amount of "common knowledge" (for lack of a better phrase) about Disadvantages and their handling which is not clearly stated in the rules. With any luck, Steve has cleaned up at least some of this in 6th Edition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages ... even the left column was too ranty for my taste (although I rather dislike some of the "Generic Supers" suite of Disads that show up in a lot of published characters) to, the point where I couldn't convince myself to waste the time to keep reading. I'll say this, tho. HERO isn't just freaking supers, damnit, and some of us like playing Tragic characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages ... I just fell asleep twice trying to read it. Seriously, even the left side is ridiculous. It feels like someone took all the arguments and complaints they ever heard about the subject and compiled them in one big rant while only listing “their side” of the discussion/argument/whatever. I'm going back to bed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 20, 2009 Report Share Posted June 20, 2009 Re: In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages ... I need to finish reading it... but I do have to point out that the premise behind the analysis is flawed: Analyzing a series of Example Characters from the book is a bad way to understand how the End User utilizes the system. Doubly so from such a small sample. Example Characters are, almost by their nature, taking place in a solo-campaign with little to no context of a Game World. The writers of these are doing their best with a limited set of tools. They have to make them both accessible and easily expressed to a reader without toploading said reader with an entire setting to put them in complete context. On the other hand, as an example character it should try its best to show useful Group Friendliness, especially in a system like Disadvantages where certain ones will affect the whole group of Players at the table. Either way... I think the author has, in a small way, missed the point of the Mechanic. Or, really should interview other users of the system for Actual Play Examples of Disadvantages instead of a couple dozen pre-gen example characters. But, I'm going to finish reading this when I get home later tonight and post more thoughts on it I'm sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Re: In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages ... That page crashes my browser (Firefox 3) every time I try to load it. Does anyone have an alternate location? Never mind; I got it through Internet Explorer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Re: In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages ... He's got some valid points, but he takes the argument way too far. The Defenders are lame, but IMO that's so player characters can outshine them. Why put a lot of work into non-player characters that will never be used except as mechanical examples of how to build a character? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinanju Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Re: In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages ... I didn't read the whole thing, it was too long and too ranty. I think he had some valid critiques of how a lot of characters get designed--but for the most part I agree that most long-time Champions players tend to use Disads the way he suggests. I know I do. The one point on which I'd agree with him that the system tends to promote "kitchen sink" disad selection is the limit on "X points of disads from a single category." Yes, it's not writ in stone--but it's definitely part of the rules. I often run into that limit with Psychs. I like to use them to define the character's personality--and it's annoying. When you take, say, 150 points of disads but only 50 can come from Psychs, you have to find the other 100 points somewhere. And depending on the character, whole categories (Enraged, Accidental Change, Hunted or Susceptibilities) may be off the table. Which can make it tough to scrape up the rest of the points. Next time I run a Champions game I may well just give the players 350 points up front and tell them to take whatever disads (for NO additional points) suit the character concept. If the disads come up in play, they'll get role-playing XP for dealing with them; if they don't, they don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretID Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Re: In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages ... He addresses what I think is a pretty silly part of the disad system - the frequency of hunteds and DNPCs. I only allow 8s as a GM, and then of course I never actually roll. He only skimmed another issue: We have in the same category true disadvantages (e.g., vulnerabilities), plot devices (hunteds, DNPCs), and flavor (personality quirks). I've addressed this to some degree at character creation in my current campaign, but in my next I'll break it down more, e.g., true disads will be worth some Character Points, hunteds will be entirely player's option - stuff like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cardinal Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Re: In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages ... Next time I run a Champions game I may well just give the players 350 points up front and tell them to take whatever disads (for NO additional points) suit the character concept. If the disads come up in play, they'll get role-playing XP for dealing with them; if they don't, they don't. Isn't this how hero points and complications work in MNM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinanju Posted June 21, 2009 Report Share Posted June 21, 2009 Re: In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages ... Isn't this how hero points and complications work in MNM? Pretty much, yeah. I like that approach. You don't have to worry about the frequency of disads when you take them. If it comes up, it comes up--if not, not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoloOfEarth Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 Re: In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages ... He addresses what I think is a pretty silly part of the disad system - the frequency of hunteds and DNPCs. I only allow 8s as a GM' date=' and then of course I never actually roll.[/quote'] I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. I'll allow 11- or even 14- if it seems fitting, and I often roll them if for no other reason than for help with ideas for subplots. I don't let a successful roll dictate things, but I do use it as a general guide. I also take into account the amount rolled vs. what I'm rolling against, and that helps determine the form / severity of that disad's appearance. If I roll low enough (and especially if I roll a 3) that Disad might play a large part in that adventure or might be a medium part of multiple adventures. For example, in my Champions game the radiation-using healer Sentinel has: - Secret Identity (frequently / 11-) - DNPC: adopted daughter (8-) - Reputation: healing hero (8-) In one game, I rolled 10 on her Secret ID and a critical 3 on her Reputation. So I created a subplot where a rich oil shiek tried to hire Sentinel's services as his own private medical resource. However, he wanted her to move to Dubai (which *would* affect her Secret ID), and she needed to be available to him and his family on a 24-hour basis. (Given that he was offering her millions of dollars a year, it seemed a reasonable request.) She eventually turned him down, but it was some fun roleplaying, and that shiek popped up once or twice later with new offers. A given Disad's appearance doesn't have to be a huge part of the plot in my game, especially if the roll just makes it. In my game, Hunted: VIPER 11- could mean anything from a VIPER-mouthpiece lawyer filing a nuisance lawsuit against the hero (rolled an 11), to the hero catching a trio of agents committing a crime (rolled a 10), to those agents having weapons that exploit a vulnerability of the hero (rolled an 8), to the fight with the agents endangering a family member or friend (rolled an 8, plus a decent success on the DNPC roll). I've even made Enraged or Berserk rolls when planning an adventure (though my players tend not to take those Disads) and have used success as license to tweak the plot to bring that disad into potential play. For example, Enraged when someone hurts or threatens children (11-, recover 11-) means that hero is going to be more likely to encounter children in perilous situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secretID Posted June 22, 2009 Report Share Posted June 22, 2009 Re: In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages ... I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. I'll allow 11- or even 14- if it seems fitting, and I often roll them if for no other reason than for help with ideas for subplots. I don't let a successful roll dictate things, but I do use it as a general guide. I also take into account the amount rolled vs. what I'm rolling against, and that helps determine the form / severity of that disad's appearance. If I roll low enough (and especially if I roll a 3) that Disad might play a large part in that adventure or might be a medium part of multiple adventures. For example, in my Champions game the radiation-using healer Sentinel has: - Secret Identity (frequently / 11-) - DNPC: adopted daughter (8-) - Reputation: healing hero (8-) In one game, I rolled 10 on her Secret ID and a critical 3 on her Reputation. So I created a subplot where a rich oil shiek tried to hire Sentinel's services as his own private medical resource. However, he wanted her to move to Dubai (which *would* affect her Secret ID), and she needed to be available to him and his family on a 24-hour basis. (Given that he was offering her millions of dollars a year, it seemed a reasonable request.) She eventually turned him down, but it was some fun roleplaying, and that shiek popped up once or twice later with new offers. A given Disad's appearance doesn't have to be a huge part of the plot in my game, especially if the roll just makes it. In my game, Hunted: VIPER 11- could mean anything from a VIPER-mouthpiece lawyer filing a nuisance lawsuit against the hero (rolled an 11), to the hero catching a trio of agents committing a crime (rolled a 10), to those agents having weapons that exploit a vulnerability of the hero (rolled an 8), to the fight with the agents endangering a family member or friend (rolled an 8, plus a decent success on the DNPC roll). I've even made Enraged or Berserk rolls when planning an adventure (though my players tend not to take those Disads) and have used success as license to tweak the plot to bring that disad into potential play. For example, Enraged when someone hurts or threatens children (11-, recover 11-) means that hero is going to be more likely to encounter children in perilous situations. Interesting stuff - thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poptoad Posted July 1, 2009 Report Share Posted July 1, 2009 Re: In Character: A Critical and Unauthorized Look at Disadvantages ... I really enjoyed this guy's opinions because they were so strong. He had some good points, particularly about hunteds and DNPCs: they often make up stories that should occur during the game, not before it. they often have ridiculous frequencies. I thought his criticism of vulnerabilities and susceptibilities was strange. Suddenly he's entirely away from critiquing them as they apply to character creation and game-playing, and he's treating them like we're playing a war game, where the weaknesses simply aren't worth the points. (Though I do agree GMs tend to overplay vulnerabilities, susceptibilities, and unluck. My poor 15 points of unluck will get played once or twice every adventure, while some other guy has 50 points in psychological disads that won't even come up every 4 or 5 sessions.) I loved his critiques of sample characters on the right side. He finds some he likes: Green Dragon, Tachyon, Icicle, and Invictus he thinks are particularly well built. But pretty much everybody else he trashes, and his reasons were convincing and funny (I thought). It's true the disads are the heart and soul of a character, and far the hardest part of the character to create. If you've got a good character conception, they flow like water, and if you don't, it's like pulling teeth to get your 150 points. That's because you're trying to define a character. Any novelist will tell you how hard that is to do. By contrast, you can whip up a new set of powers in a few minutes on a matchbook cover. He's right that Hero should have put a bit more creativity and thought into their sample characters. More people know about the Champions than any other NPCs, but their disads do read like an afterthought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.