My PCs are made of GLASS!

[SimComm]

Hi All,

I was working on a few fight scenes, as I'm trying to turn away from "talky" to "fighty," and I realize that I have a MASSIVE combat discrepancy.

On one end, I have a PC who is basically Wolverine (I think he has Laser Claws or something) who can take ludicrous amounts of damage and maul everything that gets within leaping range.

And on the other side is my good friend and psychic who has subtle (adders for not being noticed) psychic powers, mostly telepathy. I think she has ONE offensive ability. And no defenses. I think she may have a leather jacket that she doesn't wear.

I'm just not sure how to balance it so that it's challenging for the Scrapper and yet will keep the psychic from being torn to shreds. Repeatedly. I've tried asking the Psi PC if she'd be interested in investing in defenses, but she's of the opinion that her character wouldn't like that (she's kind of a pacifist who dislikes fighting/ nasty emotions in general). And umm... she has a REALLY low strength. I'm amazed she doesn't get winded wearing her tank-tops.

Combats aren't my forte, so I'd appreciate any help!

 

Thanks,

-SC

[sinanju]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

Hi All,

I was working on a few fight scenes, as I'm trying to turn away from "talky" to "fighty," and I realize that I have a MASSIVE combat discrepancy.

On one end, I have a PC who is basically Wolverine (I think he has Laser Claws or something)...

 

Whoa! Stop right there! Let's see the instant replay, shall we?

 

I have a PC who is basically Wolverine (I think he has Laser Claws or something)...

 

You think he has Laser Claws? You don't know what he has? Don't you have character sheets for your players' characters? You certainly should!

 

If you're designing bad guys when you have no idea what powers (and especially what defenses) your player characters have, no wonder they seem to be made of glass. You need to know what they can take out (as well as what they can dish out) so you can make sure the fight won't be a cake walk--on either end.

 

And on the other side is my good friend and psychic who has subtle (adders for not being noticed) psychic powers, mostly telepathy. I think she has ONE offensive ability. And no defenses. I think she may have a leather jacket that she doesn't wear.

I'm just not sure how to balance it so that it's challenging for the Scrapper and yet will keep the psychic from being torn to shreds. Repeatedly. I've tried asking the Psi PC if she'd be interested in investing in defenses, but she's of the opinion that her character wouldn't like that (she's kind of a pacifist who dislikes fighting/ nasty emotions in general). And umm... she has a REALLY low strength. I'm amazed she doesn't get winded wearing her tank-tops.

Combats aren't my forte, so I'd appreciate any help!

-SC

 

Since she has Subtle on her powers, if she's not standing out in the open, she should be able to remain hidden and avoid a lot of damage that way.

 

But if she insists of having no defenses while getting into the middle of a scrap, she's got no complaints coming when she gets mauled. Think of it this way, if she's into role-playing, she'll have plenty of material when she's lying around in a hospital bed or dealing with horrible scars or lost limbs or whatever, right?

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

I'd say something defensive that's not actually a damage-reducing defense, like DCV-only Combat Skill Levels bought as distoring her location with mental illusions/interfering with opponents' spatial awareness, or maybe psi-based Invisibility, might go over better with your fragile character's player.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

Here's how I built mental invisibility as part of an Elemental Control framework for my character I-Mind a while back:

 

23 3) Mental Invisibility: Invisibility to Sight, Hearing, Smell/Taste, Radio, Touch and Mystic Groups and Spatial Awareness , No Fringe, Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4) (75 Active Points); Limited Power Only vs. Sentient Targets That Character Is Aware Of (Not vs. Targets with EGO + Mental Defense Greater than 35; -1)

[ghost-angel]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

Post the Characters and your Campaign Parameters - let's take a really close look at the situation.

[Tasha]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

Balanced combats... that's a very important skill for a Hero GM.

 

One thing is to look at the party and the Villains. I recommend having a plan of attack before you even start the combat. You aren't there to decimate the PC's you want to challenge them. Every archetype has a weakness. ie Your scrapper will probably be easy pickings for a mentalist. Bricks tend to have a hard time with Martial Artists. Mentalists tend to be blown over by a strong wind if they are percieved. Energy Projectors tend to be Brick fodder (or other Energy Projector fodder). If one hero is stronger in combat than the others, have him be double teamed.

 

As for your mentalist with no defenses, I would recommend either Shrinking (gives high DCV and is hard to see) or Invisibility (hard to see). Also things like mental Flash vs sight (turning off the optic nerves), or Mental Entangles (Can be very unbalancing if purchased) high def/body. Hell, Lots of 5 point skill levels vs DCV (ie the old Mental illusion of being a foot away from where the mentalist actually is AKA D&D Displacement Spell)

 

If the characters are really that far away from one another in combat effectiveness. You could talk to all of the players and see if you could get the most powerful to tone his character down a bit and the least effective to pump up their combat abilities.

 

If you really want our opinions on your PCs. Go ahead an post their character sheets and/or the Hero designer files. The folk on these boards are great at helping folk tweak characters to make them better (whatever that means for the player).

 

Tasha

[SimComm]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

Thank you all for your replies!

Sinaju:

Sadly enough, I don't have copies of their character sheets (I really should I suppose).

Old, bad GM habit I suppose

(I did say that I'm not so good at this combat thing right? )

People have them written down on paper, some of which I must admit are getting pretty thrashed, but in a way, I suppose it makes them feel well loved.

I know what level they have in terms of powers and combat abilities for the older characters, but for the new guys (the Wolvie char being one of them, I must admit I'm not 100% sure).

 

Hyper-Man & Tasha:

The invisibility idea might work well for my Psi player! Thanks. I don't think she has enough points to really justify getting enough DCV.

 

ghost-angel:

Hope you don't mind I saved your post for last, as I can go though the full onslaught of what I know:

 

Although I did post the strongest and weakest characters, I did note that they are both "well outside the curve" of the game.

 

The majority of the players have OCV/DCV 8 or so with a few combat levels.

PD/ED's tend to be in the late 10's to early 20's (sounds like a club I know).

Some have resistant defenses of some kind.

They can put out around 9-10 dice of damage, more if they combine attacks.

One of the characters has Aid STR which does help.

 

The Wolvie character (Bloodclaw) has OCV/DCV 10 with 3-4 combat levels.

I know he regularly puts out something like 12 dice of damage fairly easily and has powers that can do multiple hits to people at range (Autofire power and an Area Affect attack power respectively).

He really likes hitting people.

As for defenses, he has only PD/ED in the 20's, but he has a LOT of STUN and an atrocious CON (something in the 30's), so he really doesn't fall down. He has a regeneration factor too, and is immune to toxins. I don't think he has a mind-shield yet.

He's one of the newer PC's, so I gave him a bit more freedom when making his character, as he is a bit behind in points (starting 250+100, most people are around 275-300+100 now).

 

The Fragile Psi character is well...

She's rather infamous for her stats in a way

OCV/DCV 5 No Combat Levels

PD/ED I think 3-4

STR 8 (yes, she bought it down) CON 12

Most of her psi powers cost No END, which is good, as she doesn't have a lot of it.

She DOES have a lot of skills (We joke that she picks up so many skills from raiding people's brains; She always uses EXP at the end of the game to pick up new skills rather than improve old ones), and I think she has the Jack of All Trades Perk.

She has an EGO blast that causes 6d6 damage (or there abouts). It's her only attack.

However, she does have a good PRE, EGO (of course), INT that keeps her well as the "de-facto" party second in command.

She DOES NOT like fighting.

 

Here's more information, please help!

 

Thanks,

-SC

 

As a side note, the incoming gender-bender Brick (from the Female/Male thread) is actually going to perhaps help things (maybe protect the Psi a bit?).

Her/his STR is 55 with a very high CON and high resistant PD/ED (I think total 28/25) with a LOT of STUN and END. OCV/DCV 6-7 with no combat levels.

...

Actually now that I look at that, I hope it won't complicate matters more

:worry:

[ghost-angel]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

If the problem characters are outside your norm... I don't think you have a balance problem - I think you have Specific Character Issues.

 

Your mentalist will Need something regarding Damage. Either Mitigation (defenses) or Avoidance (DCV, Invisibility, Indirect Attacks) because those are extremely low combat abilities.

 

Your CVs and Defenses are far outside the range of 'normal' - I'd concentrate on alternate tactics for these two characters.

 

Nothing wrong with low STR, but she does need something in the defensive arena badly. Mental Force Shield, ability to attack from cover, higher CON - something.

[SimComm]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

ghost-angel:

Thanks!

I really do try and keep people balanced... (try mind you...)

The Psi char is actually our pseudo-tactician, as she has powers that lets her detect all minds, thus "marking" all of the targets. She can also AA Telepathy at a low level, which lets her "hear" what the bad guys are actively thinking. That, tied with her ability to Mental Link everyone together, makes her pretty good at keeping everyone working like a well oiled machine and backing everyone up. She can also "ride along" people senses, so she can see what someone else is seeing/hearing as well.

So, in combat, she usually finds cover and then starts coordinating people. If they're going in someplace, she usually does her powers first. I personally like her playing style, as she makes the teamwork of the whole party synch quite well.

 

I think I might be able to get her to get the "Mental Blind Spot" power, but I've been a little worried about allowing too much invisibility into the game... I think it should be ok though...

 

Thanks!

-SC

[SimComm]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

Also:

What should I do about Bloodclaw ("Mr. Slashy" as we nicknamed him)?

He's the main source of in the group at the moment, but I'm not sure how to challenge him.

If I throw out a PSI, it'll cripple him, no doubt, but I don't know how to make a good mix of challenge/slash-fest that he'll like...

 

Thanks,

-SC

[Peregrine]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

Also:

What should I do about Bloodclaw ("Mr. Slashy" as we nicknamed him)?

He's the main source of in the group at the moment, but I'm not sure how to challenge him.

If I throw out a PSI, it'll cripple him, no doubt, but I don't know how to make a good mix of challenge/slash-fest that he'll like...

 

Thanks,

-SC

 

Give him hordes of mooks to wade through. If he can take down one or more mooks per Phase, he'll be happy camper - until he gets bored with it and is ready for a challenge. VIPER agents are tailor made for this - use General Combat Specialists for the mooks and a Red Guard or a Melee Combat Specialist to step up the challenge. Then hit him with a Takara-Shinja (or two, with Teamwork skill) and make him sweat. (Note: the above agent types are in VIPER: Coils of the Serpent; if you don't have it, use the standard VIPER agents for mooks, add a martial art and some DEX and SPD for the Melee Combat Specialists, and use a cinematic ninja for the Takara-Shinja; that's basically what they are anyway.)

[ghost-angel]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

It doesn't sound like you actually have any problems with the mentalist. Remember - you don't always have to have every character go in toe-to-toe with each fight. I wouldn't worry here.

 

As for Mr. Slashy - yeah, give him hordes of mooks to wade through and "keep 'em off everyone's back" while he does his thing. Or - put him up against a foe as tough as he is - a good knock down, drag out, to a stand still fight sounds like it might just spark the Character into a long term rivalry you can milk for ages to come.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

The majority of the players have OCV/DCV 8 or so with a few combat levels.

PD/ED's tend to be in the late 10's to early 20's (sounds like a club I know).

Some have resistant defenses of some kind.

They can put out around 9-10 dice of damage, more if they combine attacks.

 

The Wolvie character (Bloodclaw) has OCV/DCV 10 with 3-4 combat levels.

I know he regularly puts out something like 12 dice of damage fairly easily and has powers that can do multiple hits to people at range (Autofire power and an Area Affect attack power respectively).

He really likes hitting people.

As for defenses, he has only PD/ED in the 20's, but he has a LOT of STUN and an atrocious CON (something in the 30's), so he really doesn't fall down. He has a regeneration factor too, and is immune to toxins. I don't think he has a mind-shield yet.

 

The Fragile Psi character is well...

She's rather infamous for her stats in a way

OCV/DCV 5 No Combat Levels

PD/ED I think 3-4

STR 8 (yes, she bought it down) CON 12

She has an EGO blast that causes 6d6 damage (or there abouts). It's her only attack.

 

As a side note, the incoming gender-bender Brick (from the Female/Male thread) is actually going to perhaps help things (maybe protect the Psi a bit?).

Her/his STR is 55 with a very high CON and high resistant PD/ED (I think total 28/25) with a LOT of STUN and END. OCV/DCV 6-7 with no combat levels.

...

 

It looks like the two highest attacks in your game are the Wolvie clone and the Mentalist - a 6d6 Ego Blast equates to a 12d6 normal attack. I'm not sure why you consider her weak in that regard.

 

The defensive spread is more of an issue. Mental powers are invisible, so only her target will likely be aware of the psi, especially if she has powers designed to assist her in going unnoticed. Some additional defensive abilities wouldn't hurt, of course.

 

But that views the characters in isolation. A bit of tactics would go a long way for your group. The Mentalist hits hard against a defense many opponents will lack, but can be taken down by a good counterattack. So some of the other characters should make it their job to protect the Psi. Engage anyone trying to counterattack her. Block attacks directed at her. That sort of thing. Some characters have better abilities than others to accomplish these tactics, so a lot depends on the abilities of the rest of the team. They'll accomplish a lot more if they approach combat as a team, not as an every man for himself exercise.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

Just make sure Psi-girl never gets attacked by anything that does BODY damage - any decent NA or KA could kill the PC in one hit afaics.

 

BloodClaw doesn't look like a problem, his CVs aren't that much higher than the rest of the party. His PD and ED aren't too high, but he has lots of 'hit points' and regen. That's actually really good because he can be damaged, which helps make it feel like a challenge, but not go down. BloodClaw's player obviously likes combat, wants to fight, wants to be good at it. So let him. It's not a prob at all if he takes out 2 or 3 villains and the other PCs only take out 1 each.

 

You can have BloodClaw attacked more often or double or triple teamed if you think it's necessary. For example if there are 6 PCs, have them attacked by 8 villains of roughly equal power and three go for BloodClaw.

 

Overall I don't think there's much of a problem tbh. I've seen parties that were *massively* more unbalanced than this. Like a group where some PCs had 30d6 attacks and PD/ED of 70 and some had 10d6 and PD/ED of 10. (I was the GM.)

[Cygnia]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

Kidnap the PC Psi, brainwash her with a better/more evil mentalist and sic her on Mr. Slashy.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

My initial thought: Get that mentalist some Combat Luck, stat.

 

When I set up a game, I typicaly include stat/attack minima along with maxima. The lowest PD/ED I recommend is 1.5 times the damage DC cap, so in a typical 12DC game (typical for me, that is), I'd recommend nobody have a PD or ED lower than 18.

[Lethosos]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

Given the Psi's feel, I'd recommend a little deception in the form of Armor(PD)/Mental Illusion, with a Trigger on being attacked and a good Acting skill roll.

 

Basically, a lesser form of Stimulate Death that allows the player the illusion of "almost down" without being unconscious, giving her a bit more protection while fooling the one who hit her (and in turn fooling the bad guys with HIS actions!)

[Oruncrest]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

ghost-angel:

Thanks!

I really do try and keep people balanced... (try mind you...)

The Psi char is actually our pseudo-tactician, as she has powers that lets her detect all minds, thus "marking" all of the targets. She can also AA Telepathy at a low level, which lets her "hear" what the bad guys are actively thinking. That, tied with her ability to Mental Link everyone together, makes her pretty good at keeping everyone working like a well oiled machine and backing everyone up. She can also "ride along" people senses, so she can see what someone else is seeing/hearing as well.

So, in combat, she usually finds cover and then starts coordinating people. If they're going in someplace, she usually does her powers first. I personally like her playing style, as she makes the teamwork of the whole party synch quite well.

 

I think I might be able to get her to get the "Mental Blind Spot" power, but I've been a little worried about allowing too much invisibility into the game... I think it should be ok though...

 

Thanks!

-SC

 

If your Psi can hear what the bad guys are thinking, then she can buy defenses with the special effect of 'forewarning' - mentally picking up that they're going to attack her and how and making sure that her body 'zigs' properly to dodge the attack. Like so:

 

Forewarned is Foredodged: (20, 20) Force Field, 0 END; not vs. Area Effect Attacks or attacks by opponents with no EGO score (-1/2); 60 Active Points, 40 Real Points

 

This vesion was bought as Force Field so it could go in a Elemental Control. If the power is supposed to be outside of a framework, she should use nonpersistent armor.

 

It's high enough that an average 10D6 attack (35 STUN) will fail to stun her half the time (more if she remembers to wear her leather jacket), and any STUN that gets through can be explained as 'psychic feedback' - to dodge the attack, she had to open herself to the hostile intent behind it, and that was what hurt her. The limitation is there because, well, what explosion has a mind?

 

It should also fit in with her concept of a poweful telepath that couldn't fight her way out of a wet paper bag.

 

As for how to deal with 'Mr. Slashy', I have six words: Telekinesis and Flash are your friends.

[SimComm]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

Wow, thanks for all the great power suggestions everyone!

And for the advise on dealing with Mr. Slashy...

I was hoping to do an individual response to everybody, please don't take offensive if I don't mention your name, I read every one! (and they're appreciated )

 

Hugh Neilson:

I actually never did think about it that way, I guess she does have a nasty attack.

It's just that it has the Extra END cost on it, so it's her "emergency" weapon. I think she can use it only 2-3 times before it makes her black out.

 

Cygnia:

Haha, that would be great. BloodClaw already knows the perils of Psi (I keep having to dissuade him to take a big block of Mental Defense), and in a way I think he already might be a little afraid of her.

 

I gave it some more thought and perhaps one thing I should maybe be more clear on is that I don't know how to tempo a fight correctly for the team.

 

Our core "3" are fairly fragile

I'll spell them out so you can see:

 

1. HellRaiser (but nobody calls him that, he goes by "Harry")

A modern combat mage with detective skills, contacts and a magic staff that lets him blow things up (8-9d attacks with various adv such as Area Affect, Autofire, and his favorite: Explosive). He has a magic force field that protects him from some attacks, but it's not that tough (I think its 12-15 PD/ED). He mostly acts as the sniper/room-cleaner and de-facto party leader.

 

2. Red Witch

She's the defensive mage with more traditional spells (binding, detection, enhancements). She's more about adjusting the party with protection and healing and blasting ocasionally. She's also the Lore Warehouse, having most of the KS's in the book. She has a pretty strong magic force field (comparable to Harry), but she also has a strong force wall that she usually layers on.

 

3. Dream Girl

She's the fragile Psi I've been talking about. She's so fragile that it's a joke as to how she'll be incapacitated next. She mostly acts as party coordinator.

 

Our campaign "theme" as it is has changed over time, but now it's mostly about a hidden magic/psi hidden world within the standard 4-color universe, so the characters have to keep a fairly low profile as to their actual abilities. We've had 4-color heroes as part of the group, but they tend to rotate out more often than not.

 

As much flak as we give BloodClaw, "Mr. Slashy" has been reliable in coming, and although a little abrasive (I think it's just that he doesn't have contacts/backstory as strong as the senior characters), he does play well with the party and is a friend of the Harry player.

 

I hate to lose players in general, but I'm not really sure how to pace a fight, as the "3" usually plan fights out so they'll be as short as possible without anyone getting hurt (or hopefully noticing), but BloodClaw (from what I can tell), likes long, drawn out fights with a high amount of "high octane" smashing and whatnot.

 

Any idea as to how I can balance them out?

 

Thanks,

-SC

[Hyper-Man]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

You could write a 'Warehouse 13' story where the characters learn about a bad guy gathering several parts of a powerful magufin (that's just too powerful for any one being to control). Say he's already collected enough parts to give him great powers (like summoning zombies or such) and the race is on to find the last piece (which is hidden and protected by powerful magics. Mr. Slashy can make himself quite useful by just keeping the zombies away from everyone else so they can figure out where the last piece is and actually getting it and figuring out how to use it to defeat the bad guy in the process.

[SimComm]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

An interesting idea. Haven't tried zombies with them yet. It would give BloodClaw many things to slash!

 

Thanks,

-SC

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

Hugh Neilson: I actually never did think about it that way, I guess she does have a nasty attack.

 

It's just that it has the Extra END cost on it, so it's her "emergency" weapon. I think she can use it only 2-3 times before it makes her black out.

 

Unless she takes recoveries in between. Given she's hard to notice, that shouldn't be all that hard. Judicious use of more subtle mental powers, such as illusions and Mind Control, can also be very effective.

 

1. HellRaiser (but nobody calls him that, he goes by "Harry")

A modern combat mage with detective skills, contacts and a magic staff that lets him blow things up (8-9d attacks with various adv such as Area Affect, Autofire, and his favorite: Explosive). He has a magic force field that protects him from some attacks, but it's not that tough (I think its 12-15 PD/ED). He mostly acts as the sniper/room-cleaner and de-facto party leader.

 

2. Red Witch

She's the defensive mage with more traditional spells (binding, detection, enhancements). She's more about adjusting the party with protection and healing and blasting ocasionally. She's also the Lore Warehouse, having most of the KS's in the book. She has a pretty strong magic force field (comparable to Harry), but she also has a strong force wall that she usually layers on.

 

Looks like it's her job to guard/protect the psi.

 

3. Dream Girl

She's the fragile Psi I've been talking about. She's so fragile that it's a joke as to how she'll be incapacitated next. She mostly acts as party coordinator.

 

If the player's not unhappy with being low utility in combat, why should anyone else be unhappy with that result?

 

I hate to lose players in general' date=' but I'm not really sure how to pace a fight, as the "3" usually plan fights out so they'll be as short as possible without anyone getting hurt (or hopefully noticing), but BloodClaw (from what I can tell), likes long, drawn out fights with a high amount of "high octane" smashing and whatnot.[/quote']

 

It may be that they aren't compatible at the end of the day. The game structure sounds a lot more focused around investigation than extensive combat. In source material, I agree that there would often be combat for Bloodclaw while the others investigate. There would also be portions of the story that revolve around Bloodclaw, and extensive combat, while other episodes would revolve around the others, with less combat intensity. That's tougher to implement in game, since the other players don't just disappear when their characters aren't getting camera time.

 

Splitting up the team might be a good option. I've run some decent games where we simply switch back and forth between characters/groups as they pursue separate actions, even having all groups phase by phase at the same time, with different maps. This helps eliminate the "team goes everywhere together" feel which is typically inconsistent with the source material, but can be tougher to run if players aren't OK with periods out of the spotlight.

[Checkmate]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

Give Bloodclaw an arch nemesis, a Sabertooth to his Wolverine. Make him a spiteful twin brother with the same powers or similar powers.

 

Also remember there is another type of balance besides just combat balance. There is combat/non-combat balance. Give the Psi some non-combat problems to solve. She obviously likes skills give her opportunities to use those skills to solve problems no one else can. Bloodclaw shines in combat, she shines outside of combat, and we have balance.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

Bloodclaw shines in combat' date=' she shines outside of combat, and we have balance.[/quote']Yeah, that's why I think it's fine for BloodClaw to be the main man in combat, because he sucks in non-combat situations.

[Vondy]

Re: My PCs are made of GLASS!

 

Yeah' date=' that's why I think it's fine for BloodClaw to be the main man in combat, because he sucks in non-combat situations.[/quote']

 

And smells bad from all reports.

 

Maybe that could be purchased as a flash vs. smell!