HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[Susano]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

One thing I've noticed in both martial arts cinema and the real world is any fight will tend to range over the local area. A character who Blocks and Dodges will tend to move while doing so, often moving back and away from the attacker. You also see this in sword fights a lot -- strike-block-strike-block-separate-pace-pace-pace-strike-rinse-repeat. The pacing is often the fighters circling each other looking for an opening. I'm not sure how to simulate that in HERO, since levels and DCV are Persistent... unless you want to create some sort of "dropping of the guard" effect, where one character's DCV drops (or something akin to that) giving the other character an opening to attack.

 

Another thing: In cinematic hand-to-hand fights you see a lot of movement, with characters often jumping around, leaping on to things, being knocked back and getting up, and sometimes using the scenery to help launch an attack. Granted, this is easier to simulate I think, especially with the new meter scale, as any throw will move the character a meter or two, take downs might do the same, and rolls to recover your feet after a throw should require the character to move a few meters to complete it. But still, when envisioning your martial arts battle, GMs should encourage movement.

 

A final note -- having just watched some Korean "wuxia" films (and man, the Koreans are making some awesome martial arts films), I've seen a lot of tearing up the scenery in the course of a fight. This is especially true in weapons-based combats. One effect is that if a character Dodges a blow, the GM could rule that anything near the character is hit instead (since a sword swing does take up space). Since anything but Real World Martial Arts should ignore the Real Weapon Limitation, the GM could then declare that anything nearby that's breakable and/or interesting is hit and destroyed instead. So in the case of the film Frozen Flower, the characters hack up the walls and doors, split a table, smash vases, and generally wreck the place, since every miss almost invariably hits something in the set and not the actors. At the same time, the characters also hack through things while swinging at each other. In this case I think the GM, in the interest of drama and the Rule of Cool factor, can allow PCs to hack right through stuff on the way to hitting their real target. I presume those who want to do the math could invoke some sort of "Casual DCs" rule, where if 1/2 your normal DCs are more than the DEF and BODY of something, you can blow right through it. Personally, as along as the object isn't something like a stone pillar or the like, I'd say "go for it." Of course, in some Anime Martial Arts setting, characters might just be able to "Casual DC" a stone pillar in two....

[Markdoc]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

One thing I've noticed in both martial arts cinema and the real world is any fight will tend to range over the local area. A character who Blocks and Dodges will tend to move while doing so, often moving back and away from the attacker. You also see this in sword fights a lot -- strike-block-strike-block-separate-pace-pace-pace-strike-rinse-repeat. The pacing is often the fighters circling each other looking for an opening. I'm not sure how to simulate that in HERO, since levels and DCV are Persistent... unless you want to create some sort of "dropping of the guard" effect, where one character's DCV drops (or something akin to that) giving the other character an opening to attack.

 

Another thing: In cinematic hand-to-hand fights you see a lot of movement, with characters often jumping around, leaping on to things, being knocked back and getting up, and sometimes using the scenery to help launch an attack. Granted, this is easier to simulate I think, especially with the new meter scale, as any throw will move the character a meter or two, take downs might do the same, and rolls to recover your feet after a throw should require the character to move a few meters to complete it. But still, when envisioning your martial arts battle, GMs should encourage movement.

 

A final note -- having just watched some Korean "wuxia" films (and man, the Koreans are making some awesome martial arts films), I've seen a lot of tearing up the scenery in the course of a fight. This is especially true in weapons-based combats. One effect is that if a character Dodges a blow, the GM could rule that anything near the character is hit instead (since a sword swing does take up space). Since anything but Real World Martial Arts should ignore the Real Weapon Limitation, the GM could then declare that anything nearby that's breakable and/or interesting is hit and destroyed instead. So in the case of the film Frozen Flower, the characters hack up the walls and doors, split a table, smash vases, and generally wreck the place, since every miss almost invariably hits something in the set and not the actors. At the same time, the characters also hack through things while swinging at each other. In this case I think the GM, in the interest of drama and the Rule of Cool factor, can allow PCs to hack right through stuff on the way to hitting their real target. I presume those who want to do the math could invoke some sort of "Casual DCs" rule, where if 1/2 your normal DCs are more than the DEF and BODY of something, you can blow right through it. Personally, as along as the object isn't something like a stone pillar or the like, I'd say "go for it." Of course, in some Anime Martial Arts setting, characters might just be able to "Casual DC" a stone pillar in two....

 

The key to this is the GM. If you recall the Sengoku game, we had lots of movement there - people fighting in the rafters of temples, inside mills, fighting around the gears, people falling into pit traps mid combat, etc. The way to make this work is for the GM to bring the environment into play. As a GM, I award bonuses and penalties for use of the environment liberally, allowing people to take cover behind objects even in HTH combat, giving free "high shot" hit locations to people who get above their foes, letting NPCs take their recoveries behind cover so they didn't get tagged and making free use of move-through/movebys and flanking bonuses, etc etc (Hero system has no facing rules: you are assumed to be facing your opponent. However if two opponents can get either side of you, one of them, by definition is going to be able to get behind you if you face the other. If you face neither, I consider both to be eligible for a bonus. As a player, I take advantage of the same factors, if the GM will let me. If the player s can "interact" with the scenery in this way, the property destruction will take care of itself: you might recall the fight in Kazei 5 with the Major Kusanagi-type. I was able to get the drop on her by working out that I could "casual strength" my way through interior walls while in powered armour: thus combining movement and property destruction in one action!

 

Too many GMs, IMO, plonk the characters down on a map and then essentially ignore the scenery. If they allow the NPCs "non-standard" actions like "I pull the rug he's standing on!" or "I jump on the table to get a height advantage" giving a couple of inches free swinging for use of the chandelier or even "I hold the doorway - do I get a bonus since they are limited in how the come through?" then players will swiftly change their tactics to gain bonuses too. It's a lot more fun than "I hit him again".

 

One of the few things I like about D&D is the tactical nature of combat - my current character is optimised around the idea of "Hard to hit, can come and hit you where it's not expected". Hero system can do that too, without the need for any additional rules - I think it's a a shame the option is not more widely used. This i something that could be covered by a couple of paragraphs on "running dynamic fights".

 

cheers, Mark

[BobGreenwade]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

One thing I've noticed in both martial arts cinema and the real world is any fight will tend to range over the local area. A character who Blocks and Dodges will tend to move while doing so' date=' often moving back and away from the attacker. You also see this in sword fights a lot -- strike-block-strike-block-separate-pace-pace-pace-strike-rinse-repeat. The pacing is often the fighters circling each other looking for an opening. I'm not sure how to simulate that in HERO, since levels and DCV are Persistent... unless you want to create some sort of "dropping of the guard" effect, where one character's DCV drops (or something akin to that) giving the other character an opening to attack.[/quote']I'm not sure about the other two effects you mention (I might come up with something later), but at least a part of this could be simulated by allowing a bonus of +1 or +2 to Block if the character steps back a meter or two, leading the attacker to follow. (It also occurs to me that this could be particularly nasty near a cliff's edge, if the defender can walk on air and the attacker can't.)

[The Main Man]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Sounds like an optional rule to me.

Maybe Movement Skill Levels can be spent to move 1m per level when in combat.

 

 

I remember Sequence Attacks from UMA and I got to thinking that they could be used in conjunction with Multiple Attack.

[Susano]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'm not sure about the other two effects you mention (I might come up with something later)' date=' but at least a part of this could be simulated by allowing a bonus of +1 or +2 to Block if the character steps back a meter or two, leading the attacker to follow. (It also occurs to me that this could be particularly nasty near a cliff's edge, if the defender can walk on air and the attacker can't.)[/quote']

 

It's not that simple. Often you step back in a fight to try and maintain range, either to keep your foe from knocking you down, or to try and keep your foe at your optimal range. There's also the personal space factor -- having someone in your face often results in you stepping back to recreate your comfort zone. And stepping back doesn't always work -- it might just put you in your foe's optimal range and out of yours.

 

It's also a matter of stance -- in order to maintain proper stance you need to shift as the enemy shifts. In SCA fighting (at least) not maintaining a proper stance can open you up to getting hit. So, you often see two fighters circling while throwing blows, because each one is stepping to the side slightly, trying to better their angle of attack around the other's shield.

[Susano]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

The key to this is the GM. If you recall the Sengoku game, we had lots of movement there - people fighting in the rafters of temples, inside mills, fighting around the gears, people falling into pit traps mid combat, etc. The way to make this work is for the GM to bring the environment into play. As a GM, I award bonuses and penalties for use of the environment liberally, allowing people to take cover behind objects even in HTH combat, giving free "high shot" hit locations to people who get above their foes, letting NPCs take their recoveries behind cover so they didn't get tagged and making free use of move-through/movebys and flanking bonuses, etc etc (Hero system has no facing rules: you are assumed to be facing your opponent. However if two opponents can get either side of you, one of them, by definition is going to be able to get behind you if you face the other. If you face neither, I consider both to be eligible for a bonus. As a player, I take advantage of the same factors, if the GM will let me. If the player s can "interact" with the scenery in this way, the property destruction will take care of itself: you might recall the fight in Kazei 5 with the Major Kusanagi-type. I was able to get the drop on her by working out that I could "casual strength" my way through interior walls while in powered armour: thus combining movement and property destruction in one action!

 

Too many GMs, IMO, plonk the characters down on a map and then essentially ignore the scenery. If they allow the NPCs "non-standard" actions like "I pull the rug he's standing on!" or "I jump on the table to get a height advantage" giving a couple of inches free swinging for use of the chandelier or even "I hold the doorway - do I get a bonus since they are limited in how the come through?" then players will swiftly change their tactics to gain bonuses too. It's a lot more fun than "I hit him again".

 

One of the few things I like about D&D is the tactical nature of combat - my current character is optimised around the idea of "Hard to hit, can come and hit you where it's not expected". Hero system can do that too, without the need for any additional rules - I think it's a a shame the option is not more widely used. This i something that could be covered by a couple of paragraphs on "running dynamic fights".

 

cheers, Mark

 

I did email Steve some comments on just that -- the tropes of dynamic fights.

 

This is what I sent him -- it's not complete, but it does list some of the common "tropes" of high-end cinematic fight scenes. I'm going to expand a bit on these tropes here:

 

1) Attacks so powerful even blocking them is painful. This showed up in Wild Cards, believe it or not. Two martial artists fight and one ends up with aching and bruised arms and legs. She'd blocked all of her foe's strikes, but was still hurting. This isn't a case of "your Block failed" as she didn' take the full force of the blow, it was just the other guy hit so hard, that after a while it became painful to keep up an active defense. A related version is where you block an attack, but are still slid along the ground (or knocked over, so some such). No damage is taken, but you do get tossed around.

2) Attacks so powerful they shatter blocking weapons and still do damage to the target.

3) Hitting your foe up into the air and then hitting him again while airborne. In some cases, you hit the guy, move to where he's going to land, then hit him again, sending him flying across the landscape.

4) Throwing a weapon (usually a spear of staff) at a foe then catching said weapon on the rebound. In many cases, the weapon hits lengthwise (i.e. the staff section of the spear). A related version of this is letting go of your weapon while fighting, having if spin around your foe (or his weapon) and then grabbing it a moment later. While your weapon is doing this, you hit your foe.

5) Fighting on variable surfaces. For example, in Hero two guys fight in a courtyard, but at various points they are "standing" on various vertical surfaces (such as pillars or the sides of a railing) and in one case are even upside down. None of this affects their fighting skill in the slightest.

6) Collateral damage. Strikes that miss, be they sword blows, punches, kicks, arrows, and what not, do serious damage to the surroundings. In some cases, landing after Leaping (or Leaping to being with) damages the ground. Also, characters break walls simply by getting knocked into them (doing more damage than any Knockback would normally allow).

7) Waiting until a leaping or flying character is just about to hit you... and hitting him first. In some cases, you hit the incoming fist or foot... blocking the attack and doing damage to the attacker. This is often a case of a Damage Shield and/or Trigger.

[The Main Man]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

That reminds me of a house rule that I use in my games: Penetrating's effects bypass successful Blocks unless the Blocker has applied Impenetrable to their Block maneuver.

 

I applied that to Missile Deflection back in 5e, but now that Deflection is Ranged the rule is irrelevant.

 

In any case I threw the idea out there for a possible optional rule.

[LordGhee]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

The UMA is a wonderful resource. What I have found missing are what follows.

1. offense style MA, Maneuvers that are the opposite of the defense ones example: strike, +3 OCV, +1 DCV.

2. Maneuvers that allow you to act faster that normal (higher Dex rank)

3. how MA and powers interrelate and work in deferent genres

4. Martial artist in deferent genres

5. Martial arts Genres in fiction and movies.

6. discussion of power levels in settings

7. how to use powers (with a few examples) to give your hero Iron skin or the villain the flying bird cage of death.

 

thanks

Lord Ghee

Fred Lives

[ghost-angel]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

This would be as good a place as any to expand on the Feint Skill and introduce it for 6th Edition.

[Susano]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

The UMA is a wonderful resource. What I have found missing are what follows.

1. offense style MA, Maneuvers that are the opposite of the defense ones example: strike, +3 OCV, +1 DCV.

2. Maneuvers that allow you to act faster that normal (higher Dex rank)

3. how MA and powers interrelate and work in deferent genres

4. Martial artist in deferent genres

5. Martial arts Genres in fiction and movies.

6. discussion of power levels in settings

7. how to use powers (with a few examples) to give your hero Iron skin or the villain the flying bird cage of death.

 

My thoughts on your list:

1) There is Fast Strike (+2 OCV, +0 DCV, +2DC), but I seriously doubt you'd see a real-world maneuver like your example. That almost sounds like a Sacrifice Strike, which UMA has.

2) I don't think you'd see that either (in the real world). Or, to be fair, you're talking about a power (such as Trigger or Damage Shield) or a form of Lighting Reflexes. In my opinion (and only my opinion), the maneuvers list represents Skill Level and Damage combination one would see in the real world. You can train someone to hit more accurately, or more effectively, you can't train them to hit faster -- that requires repetition to build up muscle memory. So if you training enough, your DEX will go up, but there's no one technique that will suddenly make you faster (for that technique). Also, see my comment on Fast Strike above.

3) That was in Ninja Hero, which will now be in HSMA, based on Steve's comments.

4) That was in Ninja Hero, which will now be in HSMA, based on Steve's comments. In fact, Steve mentioned on page one of this thread that HSMA will have a genre-by-genre list.

5) That was in Ninja Hero, which will now be in HSMA, based on Steve's comments.

6) That was in Ninja Hero, which will now be in HSMA, based on Steve's comments.

7) That was in Ninja Hero, which will now be in HSMA, based on Steve's comments. According to Steve, we've developed well over 200 (it might be around 250) sample powers for the five basic sub-sets of the martial arts genre (Real World, Cinematic, Wuxia, Video Game, and Anime... oh, and Ninja). The powers set up just like in the USPDs and the FHGs and have Active Point totals that range from 3 to 300.

[mallet]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

As for moving an opponent during combat, well the Knockdown rules could be used for pushing people back, but those usually involve dealing a lot of damage on a hit. An other option might be to have a special maneuver that you "add" to an existing maneuver.

 

Something like you buy the maneuver Combat Push (-2 DCV, and Moves target 1m back on successful hit) You could add this maneuver to an existing maneuver during combat if you wish to get the effect.

 

For example Fast Strike (+2 OCV, +0 DCV, +2DC) when used with Combat Push becomes Fast Strike (+2 OCV, -2 DCV, +2DC, moves target 1m back).

 

Or something along those lines.

[ghost-angel]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Cinematic combat should involve liberal use of Acrobatics, various Half Moves, Breakfalls, Feints, and the like.

 

Perhaps also some more ideas on how to gain CV or Damage bonuses for performing such manuveurs to help encourage cinematic combats.

[Carnus]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I would like to see the style Muay Thai with knee strikes, elbow strikes, headbutts and spinning backfists.

[Susano]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I would like to see the style Muay Thai with knee strikes' date=' elbow strikes, headbutts and spinning backfists.[/quote']

 

As that was in UMA (the 5e version of the book) you can rest assured it will be in the 6e version of the book.

[The Main Man]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Cinematic combat should involve liberal use of Acrobatics, various Half Moves, Breakfalls, Feints, and the like.

 

Perhaps also some more ideas on how to gain CV or Damage bonuses for performing such manuveurs to help encourage cinematic combats.

I second the idea - let the PC's truly understand why Agility Skill Levels are 6 pts apiece while Intellect and Interaction Skill Levels are only 4.

[Matt Holck]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Cinematic combat should involve liberal use of Acrobatics, various Half Moves, Breakfalls, Feints, and the like.

 

Perhaps also some more ideas on how to gain CV or Damage bonuses for performing such manuveurs to help encourage cinematic combats.

 

enforce the acceleration rule

give running a turn mode

treat leaps as arced trajectories

add rear and flank attack bonuses

promote the hesitates half phase presence attacks

use partial cover rules

[Markdoc]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Cinematic combat should involve liberal use of Acrobatics' date=' various Half Moves, Breakfalls, Feints, and the like.[/quote']

 

If you encourage players to interact with the environment, you'll see all those suddenly come into play - most of the players in my group have bought breakfall and a couple acrobatics for exactly those reasons.

 

cheers, Mark

[kahuna's bro]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

The UMA is a wonderful resource. What I have found missing are what follows.

1. offense style MA, Maneuvers that are the opposite of the defense ones example: strike, +3 OCV, +1 DCV.

2. Maneuvers that allow you to act faster that normal (higher Dex rank)

3. how MA and powers interrelate and work in deferent genres

4. Martial artist in deferent genres

5. Martial arts Genres in fiction and movies.

6. discussion of power levels in settings

7. how to use powers (with a few examples) to give your hero Iron skin or the villain the flying bird cage of death.

 

thanks

Lord Ghee

Fred Lives

3 and 4 are good questions

[Steve Long]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

The UMA is a wonderful resource. What I have found missing are what follows.

1. offense style MA, Maneuvers that are the opposite of the defense ones example: strike, +3 OCV, +1 DCV.

 

You don't see those because the rules in UMA specifically forbid Maneuvers to have more than +2 OCV, and that's not going to change.

 

2. Maneuvers that allow you to act faster that normal (higher Dex rank)

 

You don't see that because the game already has Lightning Reflexes as a Talent. You want to go faster with a Maneuver, buy Lightning Reflexes. They're not going to be added as an Element; there's no need for that.

 

3. how MA and powers interrelate and work in deferent genres

4. Martial artist in deferent genres

 

There's some of this in UMA; there's more in HSMA, along the lines of the pattern we developed in our later Ultimate books.

 

5. Martial arts Genres in fiction and movies.

 

I don't even understand what you mean by this.

 

6. discussion of power levels in settings

 

6E already touches on this in general; I have no particular plans to delve into the subject in HSMA beyond what UMA/NH already have to say.

 

7. how to use powers (with a few examples) to give your hero Iron skin or the villain the flying bird cage of death.

 

UMA and NH have all sorts of examples of this, in both the Styles section and the Character Creation section. In HSMA you'll find them organized into their own chapter and expanded upon.

[Steve Long]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I would like to see the style Muay Thai with knee strikes, elbow strikes, headbutts and spinning backfists.

 

Uhhh... you mean like the one that was in the first Ninja Hero back in, hmmm, 1991 I think it was? And then in the first UMA in 1995? And the second UMA in 2002?

 

Have no fear, there's coverage of Muay Thai. Also many similar arts like Bando and Bokator.

[Matt Holck]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

2. Maneuvers that allow you to act faster that normal (higher Dex rank)

 

that would be useful to follow up throw moves

else unless I always act first I won't get to kick him while he's down

before he gets up

[The Main Man]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

that would be useful to follow up throw moves

else unless I always act first I won't get to kick him while he's down

before he gets up

 

The Throw element already worked like that in 5e (not sure about 6e - have to check).

 

If you succeeded with a Throw (like Martial Throw or Defensive Throw) you got to act before your target on the next phase if shared one. IOW, like Blocking.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

As for moving an opponent during combat, well the Knockdown rules could be used for pushing people back, but those usually involve dealing a lot of damage on a hit. An other option might be to have a special maneuver that you "add" to an existing maneuver.

 

Something like you buy the maneuver Combat Push (-2 DCV, and Moves target 1m back on successful hit) You could add this maneuver to an existing maneuver during combat if you wish to get the effect.

 

For example Fast Strike (+2 OCV, +0 DCV, +2DC) when used with Combat Push becomes Fast Strike (+2 OCV, -2 DCV, +2DC, moves target 1m back).

 

Or something along those lines.

I like the idea, but it seems to me more appropriate to give up DC of damage, rather than DCV, in exchange for moving an opponent back.

 

So your example would become +2 OCV +0 DCV, Standard DC, moves target 1m back. Though it might be better as 1m per DC lowered.

[dsatow]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Sorry to cut in and out, but WDYWTS threads move fast. IMHO brick martial arts, if it makes it back into the revised book, should have grappling block. I don't remember seeing it but it should be in there. If I am wrong, I apologize for wasting $0.000000000000001 of your bandwidth.

 

Basically, this is where the brick gets swung at with a punch or sword and they grab the swung item (sword or fist) in mid swing and then in the next scene crush it with in their immense grip.

[The Main Man]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Sorry to cut in and out, but WDYWTS threads move fast. IMHO brick martial arts, if it makes it back into the revised book, should have grappling block. I don't remember seeing it but it should be in there. If I am wrong, I apologize for wasting $0.000000000000001 of your bandwidth.

 

Basically, this is where the brick gets swung at with a punch or sword and they grab the swung item (sword or fist) in mid swing and then in the next scene crush it with in their immense grip.

 

You mean "Fist Grab?"