HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[dsatow]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

UMA and NinjaHero were always my most favorite of the supplements. Sadly, haven't bought many supplements lately being house poor.

 

Personally, here's my input:

1) Lemon Meringue; much better than Key Lime.

2) Include under fictional martial arts, one for thugs. You always see the common thug doing grabs, gut punches, knee groin shots, chin shots, etc.

3) Under maneuvers, a martial toss. There are many instances where the martial arts or brick grabs a person and spins them around and tosses them a good distance. There seems to be two versions, one where the person is spun around the martial artist and one where the martial artist tosses them over them.

4) Standard generic write ups for the KungFu/Karate student agent, the Ninja agent, evil government spy agent(for all those 007esque fights), and generic warrior with a sword(for the fantasy/swashbuckling fights against guards and soldiers). Include the common thug if you do the thug martial arts.

5) Clarification on levels for martial arts. Every so often I see people in 5th ed using a 3 point martial arts level or a multipower level with the other. Ex: You have 2 multipower levels and a slot in the multipower which is a HTH attack. You use the HTH attack with a martial strike and then use the 3 point levels on DCV from the martial strike. This is the 5th ed analogy. I am not sure about the 6th ed analogy as I am not starting the 6th ed camapign until after Christmas.

6) Some explanation on how tournaments work for martial arts. Example, if I want to make a game based upon a Gym which hosts a Boxing Club, the players would be boxers and enter fights in the ring. While this scenario isn't really enough for a full separate supplement, it would be interesting here for a page or two. For instance, HERO ring fights would be like fighting Mike Tyson in all the situations(the first person to land a good +4d6 hit would most likely take out the other). How do you get around that. Similarly, some players may want to join a dojo to learn martial arts. Some basics over what it would be like and the challenges you see in movies would be cool.

7) An optional rule for doing something similar to find weakness for those who miss find weakness would be cool.

8) Did I mention Lemon Meringue?

[Rapier]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I would like to see more details about how to design weapon and power based martial arts. I've currently got an Electric blastery-type whose SFX involves a lot of kungfu.

 

Some kind of discuss about what to do when the base MA does PD and what happens with an attack should add ED? Is it possible to define a base martial art to act against ED? If you purchase 4d6 HA as your 'weapon' can you mix that with a 'weapon' based KungFu?

 

That kind of thing.

 

And more two-handed fighting rules/options/discussion.

[The Main Man]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I would like to see more details about how to design weapon and power based martial arts. I've currently got an Electric blastery-type whose SFX involves a lot of kungfu.

 

Some kind of discuss about what to do when the base MA does PD and what happens with an attack should add ED? Is it possible to define a base martial art to act against ED? If you purchase 4d6 HA as your 'weapon' can you mix that with a 'weapon' based KungFu?

 

That kind of thing.

 

I'm now picturing someone having "The Glow" from The Last Dragon.

 

And more two-handed fighting rules/options/discussion.

I have a house rule in which a character with Two Weapon Fighting may Block an additional attack at no penalty if they are using two weapons.

 

It's the defensive end of the equation and I think that it would be a neat additional ability for Two Weapon Fighting, especially since now there isn't a differentiation between HTH and Ranged TWF and that one can Block Ranged Attacks (depending on the campaign).

[The Main Man]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

That's certainly worth considering -- if nothing else it's an option worth throwing into the pot' date=' since the entire discussion of this issue is likely to be more a presentation of possibilities than a hard-and-fast "it's this way" sort of thing. [/quote']

 

I was just thinking that it could generate 1 CSL with the Martial Arts in question per 5 points of difference and maybe even +1 to Analyze: Style rolls if against an opponent with the same style.

 

Come to think of it, would Weapon Elements and extra Damage Classes count towards this difference?

 

Would this extend to fighting people without any Martial Maneuvers at all? Methinks that the answer should be yes.

 

Certainly gives an alternative incentive for purchasing Martial Maneuvers versus increased versatility with Powers and CSL's - it kinda evens the playing field more.

[Rapier]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'm now picturing someone having "The Glow" from The Last Dragon.

 

That's very much the kind of effect.

[The Main Man]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Come to think of it, having even a few Energy DC's added to a regular strike could be devastating in the right campaign.

 

 

HSMA could finally answer the question: Who's the mastah?

[Markdoc]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

1) Lemon Meringue; much better than Key Lime.

No! Key Lime!

 

 

2) Include under fictional martial arts' date=' one for thugs. You always see the common thug doing grabs, gut punches, knee groin shots, chin shots, etc.[/quote']

 

I don't think you need a martial art for this. I don't need a martial art to try and knee someone in the groin. And if you are using hit locations, you don't need martial arts to do extra damage for hitting in a sensitive location. For my thugs I tend to use "fights real good" 1 or 2 CSLs, 1 or 2 d6 HA. That'll let 'em whup up on ordinary citizens without too much difficulty.

 

3) Under maneuvers' date=' a martial toss. There are many instances where the martial arts or brick grabs a person and spins them around and tosses them a good distance. There seems to be two versions, one where the person is spun around the martial artist and one where the martial artist tosses them over them.[/quote']

 

Isn't this just martial throw? Whirling around simply sounds like haymakering a martial throw or even just special effects.

 

4) Standard generic write ups for the KungFu/Karate student agent' date=' the Ninja agent, evil government spy agent(for all those 007esque fights), and generic warrior with a sword(for the fantasy/swashbuckling fights against guards and soldiers). Include the common thug if you do the thug martial arts.[/quote']

 

This, on the other hand, I agree with: in my medieval asian game, I had lots of generic NPC (50 point martial artist, 100 point martial artist, 150 point martial artist, 50 point samurai, 100 point samurai, 150 point samurai, etc etc) with pick and mix martial arts of various kinds so I could whip up a street gang, some Lin Kuei or a bunch of marauding bandits in hurry, when I needed 'em.

 

5) Clarification on levels for martial arts. Every so often I see people in 5th ed using a 3 point martial arts level or a multipower level with the other. Ex: You have 2 multipower levels and a slot in the multipower which is a HTH attack. You use the HTH attack with a martial strike and then use the 3 point levels on DCV from the martial strike. This is the 5th ed analogy. I am not sure about the 6th ed analogy as I am not starting the 6th ed camapign until after Christmas.

 

Point: as a GM I wouldn't be going for this. Tight group is martial arts (skills) or martial arts (multipower) not both.

 

6) Some explanation on how tournaments work for martial arts. Example' date=' if I want to make a game based upon a Gym which hosts a Boxing Club, the players would be boxers and enter fights in the ring. While this scenario isn't really enough for a full separate supplement, it would be interesting here for a page or two. For instance, HERO ring fights would be like fighting Mike Tyson in all the situations(the first person to land a good +4d6 hit would most likely take out the other). How do you get around that. Similarly, some players may want to join a dojo to learn martial arts. Some basics over what it would be like and the challenges you see in movies would be cool.[/quote']

 

Depends on the characters - I've run lots of duels and even a whole campaign that culminated in a gigantic martial arts tournament. It's quite possible to have fights that last longer than you'd think and get some unexpected results.

 

cheers, Mark

[The Main Man]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

No! Key Lime!

I don't think you need a martial art for this. I don't need a martial art to try and knee someone in the groin. And if you are using hit locations, you don't need martial arts to do extra damage for hitting in a sensitive location. For my thugs I tend to use "fights real good" 1 or 2 CSLs, 1 or 2 d6 HA. That'll let 'em whup up on ordinary citizens without too much difficulty.

OTOH (not that a discretionary GM wouldn't keep this in check) HA allows those same thugs to better break out of jail whereas the Martial Artists cannot, and in a Supeheroic game they could also produce superior knockback capability.

 

Isn't this just martial throw? Whirling around simply sounds like haymakering a martial throw or even just special effects.

While I mostly agree, you cannot Haymaker a Martial Throw.

 

This, on the other hand, I agree with: in my medieval asian game, I had lots of generic NPC (50 point martial artist, 100 point martial artist, 150 point martial artist, 50 point samurai, 100 point samurai, 150 point samurai, etc etc) with pick and mix martial arts of various kinds so I could whip up a street gang, some Lin Kuei or a bunch of marauding bandits in hurry, when I needed 'em.

Reminds me of something that one of my players does and which I adopted involving what he called "Mooks" with x Levels.

 

Level "1" Mooks generally suck, while Level "2" Mooks are generally better, and they go up to Level "4," where they become an actual challenge when there's only a few of them.

 

Slap a package deal or two onto them and they're already customized.

 

They're also nifty to use at different points in an adventure to reflect the shifting challenge level for the PC's.

 

 

Point: as a GM I wouldn't be going for this. Tight group is martial arts (skills) or martial arts (multipower) not both.

I'm inclined to allow it OTOH because HA's are naturally compatible with Martial Maneuvers so if a PC has Martial Maneuvers and an HA multipower, then CSL's for one are effectively CSL's for the other where they cross over.

 

If that same PC used the 3-pt CSL's with his Martial Dodge (even though they are still for his HA) then that is where I would draw the line because he is not using his .

 

Depends on the characters - I've run lots of duels and even a whole campaign that culminated in a gigantic martial arts tournament. It's quite possible to have fights that last longer than you'd think and get some unexpected results.

Martial arts tournaments can be great fun as the PC's want to win and are usually entertained at seeing who else makes it through the rounds and it's one of those few times where I don't mind PvP.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

My pipe dream/make-a-wish would be to include stick figure drawings for each martial art's basic stances, and more description text for how the moves look, to help players describe their combats in greater visual detail.

 

Not sure anyone else cares. But anything to improve the visyals while accurately reflecting the actual combat style would be good.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

My pipe dream/make-a-wish would be to include stick figure drawings for each martial art's basic stances, and more description text for how the moves look, to help players describe their combats in greater visual detail.

 

Not sure anyone else cares. But anything to improve the visyals while accurately reflecting the actual combat style would be good.

Do we care? Definitely. Would it be important enough to take up that much space in the book? Unfortunately, probably not, unless brief descriptions were included as Sidebars.

[rjcurrie]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

My pipe dream/make-a-wish would be to include stick figure drawings for each martial art's basic stances, and more description text for how the moves look, to help players describe their combats in greater visual detail.

 

Not sure anyone else cares. But anything to improve the visyals while accurately reflecting the actual combat style would be good.

 

I think it's a great idea. I suspect that there are a number of practical reasons against doing it -- but I like it . I thinkit would be a great help in selecting a martial art for a character.

 

Speaking of which, how about a page or two on selecting the right martial art for your character -- basically, a section that suggests vario0us marital arts based on certain criteria.

[Steve Long]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'll tell you what -- if someone out there with Poser or some similar software program wants to come up with silhouettes or models of li'l dudes performing the maneuvers of all the martial arts (or at least the ones for which sufficient visual references are available), and he wants to give all that art to Hero Games for free (or for no more payment than "a couple free copies of the book"), then I'll certainly consider it. If he can get them done in the next two weeks or so, we can put them in the book; otherwise they'd have to be a separate PDF or something. But absent that level of generosity and skill, the stick figure maneuvers illustratons, while a cool idea, definitely ain't happenin'.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

My pipe dream/make-a-wish would be to include stick figure drawings for each martial art's basic stances' date=' and more description text for how the moves look, to help players describe their combats in greater visual detail.[/quote']

 

I think the closest we will get to this will be the cover art. Hex Man will be in the center, with little figures depicting martial maneuvers at the corners. (At least, that's how I imagine it.)

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'll tell you what -- if someone out there with Poser or some similar software program wants to come up with silhouettes or models of li'l dudes performing the maneuvers of all the martial arts (or at least the ones for which sufficient visual references are available)' date=' and he wants to give all that art to Hero Games for free (or for no more payment than "a couple free copies of the book"), then I'll certainly consider it.[/quote']

 

It might be worth checking Wikipedia. The Aikido article has diagrams like this licensed under the GNU Free Document License, and other articles may have similar art.

[teh bunneh]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'll tell you what -- if someone out there with Poser or some similar software program wants to come up with silhouettes or models of li'l dudes performing the maneuvers of all the martial arts (or at least the ones for which sufficient visual references are available)' date=' and he wants to give all that art to Hero Games for free (or for no more payment than "a couple free copies of the book"), then I'll certainly consider it. If he can get them done in the next two weeks or so, we can put them in the book; otherwise they'd have to be a separate PDF or something. But absent that level of generosity and skill, the stick figure maneuvers illustratons, while a cool idea, definitely ain't happenin'. [/quote']

 

I was gonna say. I'd dearly love to put something like that in, but I'm on a budget (both time and money!).

[lemming]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

It might be worth checking Wikipedia. The Aikido article has diagrams like this licensed under the GNU Free Document License' date=' and other articles may have similar art.[/quote']

 

You already suggested what I was going to suggest looking for. You can find them all for other arts as well.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

My pipe dream/make-a-wish would be to include stick figure drawings for each martial art's basic stances, and more description text for how the moves look, to help players describe their combats in greater visual detail.

 

Not sure anyone else cares. But anything to improve the visyals while accurately reflecting the actual combat style would be good.

 

Well if were talking pipe dreams, I was going to suggest a book with all the martial artists ever printed in one book. Heck, even if they were kept in their original editions would be AWESOME Of course if there was more than one edition print each one !

 

But back to the book, some of the fictional martial arts, will list a manuever as strike with a 3D6 roll. Alittle more description would be better. Unless they were going for the generic high roll was a punch and a low roll was a kick.

[dsatow]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I don't think you need a martial art for this. I don't need a martial art to try and knee someone in the groin. And if you are using hit locations, you don't need martial arts to do extra damage for hitting in a sensitive location. For my thugs I tend to use "fights real good" 1 or 2 CSLs, 1 or 2 d6 HA. That'll let 'em whup up on ordinary citizens without too much difficulty.

Personally, to defend this position, Thugs tend in comic books and cartoons/anime to rough up normals in no time flat, even if they are professional boxers and the like. Note that I am not talking about a common gang banger here but the mafia thugs you see in comics. Ex: The mafia goes up to a boxer who they want to throw a fight and he doesn't play ball. An extra 1d6 isn't going to cut it on the boxer. Furthermore, these thugs tend to fight so much better that only superheroes can take them down. They tend to be agents with better CVs and damage than police officers.

 

Isn't this just martial throw? Whirling around simply sounds like haymakering a martial throw or even just special effects.

No, a martial throw as current described generally slams the target in your hex. Its really more like a slam which in real life martial arts is what these throws do. But in comics/anime/cartoons/etc., these martial artists tend to throw or redirect the attacker into objects (like walls or boxes of rubbish, causing failed move through damage), out of a combat area (to avoid innocents in fights), or to toss them into inconvenient places (like off a cliff).

 

Point: as a GM I wouldn't be going for this. Tight group is martial arts (skills) or martial arts (multipower) not both.

 

Just to be clear, I don't allow this, but I do see many people try this.

[megaplayboy]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Hmm. That makes me think--writeups for martial artists of varying skill levels would be awesome. Example:

1. amateur boxer

2. young pro boxer

3. veteran pro boxer

4. elite pro boxer

5. champion pro boxer

6. legendary pro boxer

 

throw in small "packages" for addition adverbs, like "speedy", "defensive", "boxer/puncher", "busy", "strong", or even "lightweight/welterweight/middleweight/heavyweight" classifications. You could actually create quite a wide range of ability by having a level of tiers of experience, size and special emphasis/talent.

 

One could presumably do the same thing for thugs, too, but I think that's probably a topic for a different sort of book.

[megaplayboy]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Come to think of it, having even a few Energy DC's added to a regular strike could be devastating in the right campaign.

 

 

HSMA could finally answer the question: Who's the mastah?

 

Note to self: write up Sho Nuff for next campaign.

[The Main Man]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Note to self: write up Sho Nuff for next campaign.

 

I have a campaign in which I plan to use him in the future.

[The Main Man]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

One final thought about the idea of conditional CSL's that depend on total points spent: it does seem to address that "diminishing returns" issue quite elegantly.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

megaplayboy,i think an amateuer boxer [golden gloves]would be a low level skied normal

[Tom]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

My pipe dream/make-a-wish would be to include stick figure drawings for each martial art's basic stances, and more description text for how the moves look, to help players describe their combats in greater visual detail.

 

Not sure anyone else cares. But anything to improve the visyals while accurately reflecting the actual combat style would be good.

 

Cares, yes. Players/GMs using MAs with generic "I hit him lots' descriptions can make me grind my teeth faster than almost anything else in a game. The problem is getting anything meaningful from simple diagrams -- never mind the cost/time/space required to put them in the book. I've used books to learn kata, and static images and simple diagrams can be an exercise in frustration for most people.

 

There are a lot of movies, and video on the web, which can be good visual references. Especially if you're just looking to spice up your descriptions. A breakdown of 'good examples' of these, maybe in the 'genre by genre' section as opposed to just being listed in the back of the book might be good. The bigger problem is whether or not the player is willing to make the effort to find what is available -- still a good pointer in the right direction of where to look would be a big plus for many people.

 

Personally, to defend this position, Thugs tend in comic books and cartoons/anime to rough up normals in no time flat, even if they are professional boxers and the like. Note that I am not talking about a common gang banger here but the mafia thugs you see in comics. Ex: The mafia goes up to a boxer who they want to throw a fight and he doesn't play ball. An extra 1d6 isn't going to cut it on the boxer. Furthermore, these thugs tend to fight so much better that only superheroes can take them down. They tend to be agents with better CVs and damage than police officers.

 

I'd be inclined to call this more of a 'mind set'/plot consideration more than a game mechanic. This is where discussions can break down into a 'sport fighting vs REAL fighting' argument with the right/wrong mix of people. The 5e UMA already touches on this in part with the 'jutsu vs do' description. A couple of sentences on the differences between regulated competition and combat probably wouldn't hurt. As gamers, we usually focus on 'combat' and the rules are built along those same lines.

 

My favorite 'quote' on the topic is from one of the side plots in David Weber's Honor Among Enemies, where a couple of senior NCOs are teaching a newbie how to defend himself:

 

"...because there aren't any dangerous weapons, and there aren't any dangerous martial arts. There are only dangerous people, and if you aren't dangerous, it doesn't make a #### bit of difference what you are carrying or how well trained you are."

 

There really is a difference between two competitors matched by some objective standards meeting under agreed upon circumstances with rules and a referee, and 'lets you and me and my three buddies have a talk' in a dark alley where somebody isn't going to be walking out under his own power when the dust settles...

[Susano]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

As Steve said, I submitted my material about two weeks early, consisting of scads of martial arts abilities ranging from the realistic (such as training in fighting Florentine [i.e. with two swords/weapons]) to utterly over-the-top stunts that one only sees in anime or fairly recent HK films with a lot of CGI. So there should be a little bit of martial arts goodness for everyone!