HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I would like an explanation to as why Martial arts doesn't use END.

 

I can think of a few reasons. First, they're Skills, and Skills don't use END. Second, they represent knowing how to hit, instead of just swinging away. You aren't using more energy than an untrained fighter, you're just using it more efficiently.

[The Main Man]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I would like an explanation to as why Martial arts doesn't use END.

 

Your Strength still does.

[Wolf]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

It's been touched on here a bit, and to say I agree with most of the comments... and most especially the martial arts are one of the best and most defining characteristics of Hero, and to fiddle with them too much would be folly.

 

I think (as some have said) that a discussion at the very least, but preferably more "Swishy-Poke" Martial arts would be cool. I know there is fencing, and Kenjitsu, however I also know there are a ton of fencing schools out there, and there once were more... German Schlager as one example (don't know much other than there are still a lot of blades that you can get today that are designed for the art). It's nice to have a bunch of pre-made martial arts for your campaign, however if I'm doing a 3 Musketeer, Pirates, or any other "Swishy-Poke" game, I've got to take what little is there for fencing, and make several very different schools of fighting. It would be nice to have some more tools to do that with, or at least a discussion on how to go about it, if not several more schools written up, instead of just "fencing."

 

I like the Idea of some of the Lucha Lebre stuff making it's way in... I think there is some under-representation of wrestling maneuvers, and that would be pretty jazzy.

 

I'd also like to see some more reasoning for taking "more" martial maneuvers would be appropriate, at least a paragraph or two breaking it down so we can discuss it in our groups.

 

I think that's all I have at the moment. Keep up the good 6e stuff, this is the next book of greatness that I'm awaiting... tee he he.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

There's also the flip side of this - how do you build a skilled fighter in a setting where martial arts are inappropriate and still give him a distinctive style?

are you reffering to a pulp ara character like lily winchester?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

are you reffering to a pulp ara character like lily winchester?

 

I did not have a specific example in mind.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Your Strength still does.

 

And you still use your strength and its costs end. But with martial arts (in game), it just doesn't cost extra end. Probally because you are so trained.

[Steve Long]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I think (as some have said) that a discussion at the very least, but preferably more "Swishy-Poke" Martial arts would be cool. I know there is fencing, and Kenjitsu, however I also know there are a ton of fencing schools out there, and there once were more... German Schlager as one example (don't know much other than there are still a lot of blades that you can get today that are designed for the art). It's nice to have a bunch of pre-made martial arts for your campaign, however if I'm doing a 3 Musketeer, Pirates, or any other "Swishy-Poke" game, I've got to take what little is there for fencing, and make several very different schools of fighting. It would be nice to have some more tools to do that with, or at least a discussion on how to go about it, if not several more schools written up, instead of just "fencing."

 

Forgive me if I sound a bit testy here, but have you even read 5E UMA at all? Its Fencing write-up includes (a) more detailed information about each maneuver than pretty much any other style in the book, and ( five specific substyles of Fencing, including Schlager. In short: I think you're asking for something that already exists. If you're asking for that to be expanded, I'm sorry, but I don't see any particular need for that.

[Vondy]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Forgive me if I sound a bit testy here' date=' but have you even read 5E UMA at all? Its Fencing write-up includes (a) more detailed information about each maneuver than pretty much any other style in the book, and ( five specific substyles of Fencing, including Schlager. In short: I think you're asking for something that already exists. If you're asking for that to be expanded, I'm sorry, but I don't see any particular need for that.[/quote']

 

Personally, I think you're right about fencing in UMA-5E. Its write-up is more comprehensive than most of the styles in the book. I've used it quite a bit for more historical oriented settings. The one thing I would like to see is "fencing powers" that mimic cinematic fencing schticks, but I think that may be "out of scope" as its the sort of thing I'd expect to see in a "swishy-poke" genre book. On the other hand, I do find weapons combat extremely generic. It seems like its a placeholder for "characters who use swords and axes and stuff." It might be that a few examples of how it can be tailored to a particular milieu or character or weapon (with more descriptive maneuver names) ala the fencing write-up's sub-styles might be a good way to demonstrate how it can be customized and make it sing more. Some examples might be: knight training, frankish axe fighting, roman legionaire tactics, dragoon training, etc. Every time I look at it I think "yes, it needs to be there, but its kind of bland."

[McCoy]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

There's also the flip side of this - how do you build a skilled fighter in a setting where martial arts are inappropriate and still give him a distinctive style?

are you reffering to a pulp ara character like lily winchester?

I did not have a specific example in mind.

Example that leaps to my mind is Bat Masterson. Subtract some running, give him some independently discovered Jojitsu maneuvers, and Distinctive Features: Limp, carries a cane.

[megaplayboy]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Breaking out a Chinese, Korean or Thai weapon style from its unarmed root style might be nice. Krabi-Krabong, for example, really is distinct from Muay Thai, and Tai Chi Long Sword probably uses techniques specific to the weapon rather than simple extrapolations of the unarmed forms.

[Wolf]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Forgive me if I sound a bit testy here' date=' but have you even read 5E UMA at all? Its Fencing write-up includes (a) more detailed information about each maneuver than pretty much any other style in the book, and ( five specific substyles of Fencing, including Schlager. In short: I think you're asking for something that already exists. If you're asking for that to be expanded, I'm sorry, but I don't see any particular need for that.[/quote']

 

I'll apologize and definitely file this under "my bad," It's been a while since I've glanced over that section of the book, and let's just say that it was more of a memory of a player who was "looking for more" and my unfortunate trust in that that player read more of what he was trying to do.... *sigh*

 

Scratch my request as it was filled before I ever asked for it.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

For genre, what would the guidlines be for a Chinese viewpoint campaign? I never seemed to decided what they should be. Btw, this is where just about everyone has martial arts.

 

Also food for thought. To make certain fictional styles seem more impressive than their more mundane counterparts, like say Golden Demon Kung Fu, here are some ideas. One would be allowing the impressive art to be able to take more DC than the campaign limit, or even have some if the campaign doesn't allow you any at all. Another idea is the use of Power Advantages on said abilities. At first glance, the shield of seven demons seem just like any other martial dodge, but with the damage shield attached, where a demon actually strikes back, would definitely make it more than a mundane technique! Also this could be a great segueway into the power advantages!

 

Oh and a quick question, do you add a limitation to a power advantage the same way as a naked advantage ?

[Steve Long]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Scratch my request as it was filled before I ever asked for it.

 

Woot! That's what I like to hear. If only all requests were so easily answered.

[The Main Man]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I was just thinking that if Lucha Libre were included that it should be as a substyle of Professional Wrestling, but there's quite a few other styles that I think deserve description.

 

Strong Style involves the workers apply holds and strikes with full force to maximize the realism. This is normally done in Japan.

 

Examples: New Japan Pro Wrestling is based almost entirely on this principle, so basically anyone from that roster.

 

Technical Wrestling usually means less striking and more holds are made, and many technical wrestlers can legitimately perform most of their moves on a person - hence an emphasis on submission holds and wearing opponents down.

 

Examples: Ric Flair, Bret Hart, Chris Benoit.

 

Hardcore/Garbage Wrestling is on the opposite end of Technical wrestling, emphasizing weapons over actual holds and often lacking technical prowess or psychology.

 

The original ECW was based around this style, as it was meant to hide the weaknesses of the worse workers on the roster, but other promotions copied only the superficial aspects.

 

Examples: Mick Foley, Terry Funk, Abdullah the Butcher

 

Similar to Hardcore and Lucha Libre are High Risk types who make elaborate setups (spots) in which they pull off dangerous moves (in kayfabe they pay off though).

 

Examples: Jeff Hardy, Rob Van Dam, Sabu

 

Brawling is similar to Hardcore, in which more strikes than holds are applied, but weapon usage is not necessary.

 

Examples: Steve Austin, Harley Race, The Undertaker

 

Lastly there's power wrestling, in which a wrestler uses their size and strength to overcome their opponents

 

Examples: Andre the Giant, Hulk Hogan, Big Van Vader

 

Most of these substyles would only need a sentence or two, like most substyles.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I've been viewing episodes of Cleopatra 2525 on hulu.com looking for the "corridor corkscrew" stunt I was talking about. The one episode where I remember for certain that it was done, and that I recall having the best view of it, is "In Your Boots," but they don't have that one posted there. So I'll keep watching. (The only problem I have with that is time consumption; watching in itself is no chore. I'd actually almost forgotten what a hoot it is, and how Jennifer Sky can steal a scene with just a facial expression.)

 

BTW, even if I don't find a good example, I do recommend this show (at hulu.com or via DVD) when it comes time to revisit Star Hero. It's a fun bit of low-budget cheese, from the same company that did Hercules: The Legendary Journeys and Xena: Warrior Princess, and with the same "wink at the audience" sense of humor. It also mixes some standard "cyberpunk"-style elements with a few bits of technology that I don't remember ever seeing anywhere else.

[The Main Man]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I don't think that I mentioned that I like the idea of Lightning Relexes being a maneuver element (whoever said it).

 

And now that LR is cheaper why not make the limit +5 DEX for a maneuver for +1 Point?

 

 

Something that I'm not sure has been sufficiently covered is martial arts while riding an animal, which could probably be covered by elaboration within the Riding Skill.

 

I wonder if there could be any power builds that involve the ACV power advantage?

 

For fighting games, a common feature was the "finisher" which would end a match; I'm curious about how to approach them with HERO.

 

I wonder if some of the talents from Fistful of Talents and/or A Few Talents More could be remade that can be martial arts based?

 

I'm thinking of ones like Patient, Master Grappler, and I Want You To Hit Me As Hard As You Can and the like.

 

Something odd that I thought of that is related the whole "Social Combat" thing: I remember bringing that up all of those months ago because my friend remarked that Death Note, a shonen anime, has very little fighting, but a lot of combat.

 

The idea for a social combat system was about the idea that combat is really just a highly detailed skill, and that if a campaign were to somehow have a different skill focus, then that skill (or skill set) would dominate the campaign and combat could be simple by comparison. Basically, it's all about emphasis.

[Steve Long]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I was just thinking that if Lucha Libre were included that it should be as a substyle of Professional Wrestling, but there's quite a few other styles that I think deserve description.

 

Let me cut this line of reasoning off at the pass. I'm going to put Lucha Libre in HSMA -- since we have a whole book on LL, that's easy enough to do -- but that's it. I'm not expanding the information about professional wrestling any more. I don't think it's necessary, and of the long list of things I have to do for this book, "learn more about professional wrestling" ranks pretty much at rock bottom.

 

Actually, on just about any of my to-do lists, "learn more about professional wrestling" comes in pretty much last.

[Steve Long]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Another one I can head off: I don't see any need to make Lighting Reflexes, or things like that, into Elements. Obviously some elements duplicate, to a certain extent, mechanics that already exist in the System, but I don't see any need to expand them to encompass every little thing. if you want some Lightning Reflexes for a Maneuver, just go ahead and buy 'em.

[Steve Long]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

The idea for a social combat system was about the idea that combat is really just a highly detailed skill, and that if a campaign were to somehow have a different skill focus, then that skill (or skill set) would dominate the campaign and combat could be simple by comparison. Basically, it's all about emphasis.

 

I don't disagree with this as a philosophical premise at all. But I think applying that to HSMA, or any other book really, would distort the book past the breaking point. This isn't "the book of any and all types of HERO System combat, anywhere." It's about martial arts. Social combat is an interesting subject -- one I'd enjoy tackling sometime in the appropriate venue -- but it's well beyond what HSMA is intended to cover.

 

Besides which, given all the sturm and drang the subject of social combat generated the last time I remember it coming up in any serious way, I'm pretty sure it will need its very own discussion thread when the time comes.

[Vondy]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I don't disagree with this as a philosophical premise at all. But I think applying that to HSMA' date=' or any other book really, would distort the book past the breaking point. This isn't "the book of any and all types of HERO System combat, anywhere." It's about [i']martial arts.[/i] Social combat is an interesting subject -- one I'd enjoy tackling sometime in the appropriate venue -- but it's well beyond what HSMA is intended to cover.

 

The Ultimate Harpy

[megaplayboy]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Social combat seems like an APG topic if ever there was one.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Another one I can head off: I don't see any need to make Lighting Reflexes' date=' or things like that, into Elements. Obviously some elements duplicate, to a certain extent, mechanics that already exist in the System, but I don't see any need to expand them to encompass every little thing. if you want some Lightning Reflexes for a Maneuver, just go ahead and buy 'em. [/quote']

 

I understand your reasoning for this. But to suggest an idea, maybe short section on how to adapt or create your own elements? Say this is the formula that is used when figuring str and this is how it could be changed for dex. But on the other hand, I can see that this might open up a whole new cans of worms!

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Another thought, yuu know in the Chop Socky movies where they always do a couple of practice strikes, blocks and whatnot? I 'm thinking that that is a type of pre attack, and a good way for your enemy to see what your style is (hence making you pay for the style disadvantage!)

[redwulfe]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

All in all I really liked UMA and NH in the 5th edition and can hardly wait for the new edition. I think most of what I like to see has been touched on by Steve but would like to at least put in my view on the mater and then drop it. In case this helps sway the vote. The one thing that I wish to see in the book more than anything else is a standard system write up of the maneuvers as powers. It only need to be a small appendix one to two page thing with no real need for explanation in the same vein as what was done for the talents.

 

My reasoning is that though this is touched on in past books it should be in the new edition for those new fans that don't have the old books or for old fans who got rid of the last edition and are coming back to the system. it makes it a complete book, or at least that is my opinion. I don't wish to look elsewhere for it. I have always thought of martial arts as maneuvers and wished them built like weapons or any other equipment and did not like them being used as there own thing the power creation system should be the enter point and why should these be different. That being said there should not be a drastic change to the rules that are presented in 6th so a simple 2 page write up of the maneuvers in my opinion solves this and gives the players the option to do as they wish. This to me fits the Hero system philosophy of Any game one system.

 

Red

[BobGreenwade]

Re: HERO SYSTEM MARTIAL ARTS -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Social combat seems like an APG topic if ever there was one.

That pretty much is my thought -- or, if it's extensive enough, something for its own book.

 

The only reason I even brought it up to start with is to have some "back-of-the-mind" thoughts in this book that could eventually be applied to that. I agree that any direct reference to social combat, no matter how oblique, would be out of place in this book.