Exploring the usefulness of Block

[SuperKlaus]

Hey guys. Could some math guru help me find a situation where Blocking an attack is a better option than Dodging? It seems to me that a Dodge will pretty much always send an attacker's chance to hit much lower than a Block.

 

Some related questions are: do your players often Block rather than Dodge, and do they do it for any reason other than shaking things up? I personally find the act-first-if-you-share-a-Phase thing insufficient reward. Throw in the fact that successive Blocks suffer a penalty to success but a Dodge applies at full strength all the time, and I gotta say Blocks seem weak.

 

Last question: if you agree that Blocks are not attractive as written, how do you fix them? I was thinking of knocking the attacker off-balance to the tune of 1/2 DCV, besides the act-first thing. I've always admired HERO's ability to emulate the kind of fighting you see in a Capcom arcade game, and this would be a way to represent doing some kind of "active block" or "timed defense" that opens your opponent up to a brutal attack. The penalty may be too harsh, though.

 

Thoughts?

[Matt Holck]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

a character can block attacks not aimed at it

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

Note that a Block allows the defender two rolls to avoid damage, the first OCV-based, the second using DCV. Dodge's DCV bonus is higher, but the attacker only has to be lucky enough to beat the roll once.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

I've played martial block into the ground

+2 OCV +2 DCV

[ghost-angel]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

The other tactical option is if you're the same Speed, but Lower Dex - a successful Block allows you to go first next Phase.

 

If you find yourself in a constantly defensive position, Blocking can give you the opportunity to switch that around, even for one Phase.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

Well, if you've got levels you can use for OCV only, or a high OCV not matched by a high DCV (say, for instance, you have growth) then you may well be better off blocking than dodging. Mathematically there are other situations in which you are better off blocking than dodging, depending on relative CV, and sometimes you might not be able to dodge, but the GM might rule you can still block (say your legs and lower torso are entangled, but your arms are free).

 

On a personal note, I'm a big fan of ruling that a BLOCK is a DEFLECTION, involving some contact, whereas a DODGE is an EVASION involving none. If you want to protect someone standing behind you, you block, or take the damage. It adds more flavour to the maneouvres and makes ruling on effect much more straightforward.

 

Finally, of course, you can buy Deflection etc to block at range - which you can not do with dodge.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

Note that a Block allows the defender two rolls to avoid damage' date=' the first OCV-based, the second using DCV. Dodge's DCV bonus is higher, but the attacker only has to be lucky enough to beat the roll once.[/quote']

 

A very good point. let's explore the math.

 

If my opponent and I have equal OCV and DCV, and I dodge, he has a 25.93% chance to roll 8- and hit me. If I Block, he has a 62.5% chance to hit me, and if he does I have a 62.5% chance to block (37.5% chance he will hit)- he has a 23.4375% chance of hitting me, so I'm marginally better protected, and I get the drop on him next phase if we have the same SPD. My Block is less likely to avoid damage from the next attacker. As well, one failed Block ends the chain. The Dodge lasts until my next phase if I stay conscious. Looks like Block is preferable one on one but Dodge is better in mass combat.

 

What if I have martial arts? The Dodge means he needs a 6-, so my opponent has a 9.26% chance to hit. The Block means he needs 9- to hit (37.5%) and I need 13- to Block (74.07%, or a 25.93% chance the attacker gets throug), so he has a 9.72% chance of hitting me. The Dodge is the slightly superior defensive tactic even one on one, although I lose the chance to get the drop on my opponent. \

 

Maybe Block should get a +1 OCV or DCV, and Martial Block shouild be similarly enhanced to make Block a better appproach, at least one on one.

[Thanee]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

Block is highly superior, if your opponent has a good chance to hit you (OCV >> DCV). Block is awesome, if your DCV is halved.

 

I would actually say, that Block is more commonly superior to Dodge (of course, there is the whole region of ranged attacks, which often cannot be blocked, however; that is Dodge's forte).

 

Bye

Thanee

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

And let us not for get the classic manuever of grabbing one of your opponents and using the hapless schmuck as a shield to block with. As Thanee noted, the fact that your DCV is halved from the Grab is less of a concern since you are blocking. This works especially well for martial artists with Grab and Block elements in their style to give them an edge with CV and STR. Granted this usually only works well against mooks, but it still looks cool.

[Ice9]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

For general purposes, Dodge may be better (but not as much better as I thought, from the math above). But when at half DCV (from Multiple Attack, for instance), Block is obviously superior. In addition, it's quite useful for a character with uneven OCV/DCV (a geriatric swordmaster, for instance, or a raging berserker). Some of the Martial Arts blocks (Defensive Throw, especially) are quite handy - although so is Flying Dodge.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

The other tactical option is if you're the same Speed, but Lower Dex - a successful Block allows you to go first next Phase.

 

If you find yourself in a constantly defensive position, Blocking can give you the opportunity to switch that around, even for one Phase.

 

This is the primary advantage Block (especially Martial Block) has over Dodge (and Martial Dodge).

[The Suave]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

Blocking is way cooler than Dodging.

[Opal]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

Blocking uses your OCV. If your OCV is much higher than your DCV, block is a very good option. Going first next phase is gravy but it can be very handy for a character with more modest DEX.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

4 whole pages discussing this:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/73188-Blocking-What-s-the-point

 

Granted it was discussed for 5E, but most of it is still pertinent.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

For general purposes' date=' Dodge may be better (but not as much better as I thought, from the math above). But when at half DCV (from Multiple Attack, for instance), Block is obviously superior. [/quote']

 

???If you are at half DCV from a Multiple Attack, you need to use a phase to Block or Dodge, either of which eliminates your halved DCV.???

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

Dodging eliminates the halved DVC penalty of Multiple Attacks?

[Daltwisney]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

The penalties from multiple attack last until your next phase. If you abort a phase to Block or Dodge, you've move on to your next phase, so the 1/2 DCV would no longer apply, as you have taken another action.

 

Now if you replace the "Multiple Attack" with "Prone", Blocking is superior, since the 1/2 DCV remains (you cannot 'Abort' and stand up) but your OCV is unaffected by the prone position.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

The penalties from multiple attack last until your next phase. If you abort a phase to Block or Dodge, you've move on to your next phase, so the 1/2 DCV would no longer apply, as you have taken another action.

 

Now if you replace the "Multiple Attack" with "Prone", Blocking is superior, since the 1/2 DCV remains (you cannot 'Abort' and stand up) but your OCV is unaffected by the prone position.

 

Interesting interpretation. I'm not sure if Aborting is properly defined as "moving on to your next Phase," or "using up the Action you could have taken in your next Phase," since the additional Action you're taking is occuring during the same Phase, not a subsequent one. Anyone know of an official ruling in this case?

 

If not, it might be worth pinging Steve Long to weigh in.

[Daltwisney]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

Interesting interpretation. I'm not sure if Aborting is properly defined as "moving on to your next Phase," or "using up the Action you could have taken in your next Phase," since the additional Action you're taking is occuring during the same Phase, not a subsequent one. Anyone know of an official ruling in this case?

 

If not, it might be worth pinging Steve Long to weigh in.

 

It isn't explicitly stated. The only thing close is an example of a character using a 1/2 phase of non-com movement, holding his other 1/2 phase and then trying to abort that 1/2 phase to dodge and eliminate the DCV penalty from Non-Com. But this is aborting a held phase, as opposed to a new phase.

 

Since most maneuver bonuses and penalties apply until the character takes another action, and aborting means a character takes his action out of sequence, it has always made sense to our group that the action (defensive only, due to the abort) resets all the modifiers due solely to maneuver or action.

 

It wouldn't be a bad idea to get a specific, clear answer from Steve regarding this, but after 25+ years, I doubt we'd change it for our group in any case.

 

EDIT: Posted as a question in the Rules Forum.

[Daltwisney]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

Essentially the answer boils down to GM decision.

1) The GM decides that you cannot Abort to a defensive action, such as Block or Dodge. The DCV penalty remains until your next phase.

2) The GM decides that you can Abort. If the action you abort to is one that would normally reset the DCV penalty (such as Block or Dodge), it is removed as soon as you abort. The converse would be that if you abort to an action that normally does not affect your DCV (such as activating a Defensive Power), then the DCV effect would remain until you can take action to remove it.

 

Note that since you can take multiple non-conflicting defensive actions when you abort (turn on a FF and Dodge, for example), the only reason you likely would not would be if the GM disallows it. (You can abort and activate your FF, but cannot Dodge or Block).

 

The games of my group usually fall into category #2. The only time a character cannot Abort (assuming they have an available Phase) is when they are surprised. Note that we still would not allow the example listed in the book, aborting a Held 1/2 phase to negate a penalty willfully gained in the 'used' 1/2 phase.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

It isn't explicitly stated. The only thing close is an example of a character using a 1/2 phase of non-com movement' date=' holding his other 1/2 phase and then trying to abort that 1/2 phase to dodge and eliminate the DCV penalty from Non-Com. But this is aborting a held phase, as opposed to a new phase.[/quote']

 

You can't abort a held action. If you make a half move (even NCM), you still have a half phase left to use for whatever you want. If you use a defensive maneuver (Dodge, Block, etc) you would not lose your next phase.

[Patriot]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

Of course there are the colorful descriptions that also make block neater.

 

Cinematic chin block (The team Brick just takes it on the chin and keeps going)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

I'm inclined to interpret Superman's standing unmoved with his fists on his hips while someone futiley pounds on him as the Special Effect of Block (and Missile Deflection in the case of ranged attacks).

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Exploring the usefulness of Block

 

Another thing about block, which I didn't see mentioned is that some weapons add pluses to OCV to Block. Which means it could be move advantages to use than dodge. But really, I don't see either block or dodge as the better. Each one has a function which makes each manuever better than the other when you know the how it works, and when to use it. Or you can also use which one you feels is best. I've done that too. "I hold" "Now I dodge." : )