Doc Democracy Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Just musing after reading Narf the Mouse's HERO in 2 Pages (kudos there - should be useful to give to newbies). My beef is the acronym proliferation in HERO. Acronyms and abbreviations are useful as a short hand but when there are huge numbers of them all over the character sheet they provide an effective barrier to understanding. I think using jargon terms like Offensive Combat value in full becomes more informative and useful than OCV (especially when listed beside DCV, OMCV and DMCV). It would be better listed as Combat Values: Offensive, Defensive Mental Combat Values: Offensive, Defensive That is less of a barrier to the new player than four very similar sets of letters that have no semantic meaning. This proliferation will lead to the continued belief that HERO is difficult... Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualplayer Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Re: Acronyms So you find OCV offensive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted March 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Re: Acronyms Only when it gangs up with its other CV friends and bullies newcomers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Re: Acronyms I get your point, but it would carry more weight (just IMO) if other games didn't do it all the time too. Every game has its own jargon and TLAs. The HERO System is hardly unique in this regard, or even an unusually heavy offender... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Re: Acronyms I would side with Derek. Acronyms are nowhere near unusual in everyday life. Just a little while ago I was watching the news on ABC. I just posted about AIDS and GRID. I just made reference to how much armour (ie AC) someone was wearing in AD&D. I found out on FB (ie FaceBook) that on the day I was born 'Crocodile Rock' was the #1 song and I LOLed. I don't think acronyms are at all unusual and I don't think that players are scared off by them. In many cases, the acronym makes things easier. Is it difficult to remember that CV stand for Combat Value? I don't think so. Once you know that CV stands for Combat Value, it's not much of a stretch to remember that O stands for Offensive and D stands for Defensive. M? Hmmmm. Mental? Not a problem at all. In fact, I would wager that even if you tried to resort to the full name Offensive Combat Value, new players would very quickly be talking about their OCV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsatow Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Re: Acronyms I'll challenge that assumption. What's your AC? My THAC0 is 12. Being a Pa3/Th4 has its rewards! I do 3d8+StrMod+3(okay maybe a +1). Your HP goes down 14 pts. I get 250 XP for the encounter. I suffered no AoO and still have a pot of CLW. ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Holck Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Re: Acronyms http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyAxcEg1cQ0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted March 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Re: Acronyms I get your point' date=' but it would carry more weight (just IMO) if other games didn't do it all the time too. Every game has its own jargon and TLAs. The HERO System is hardly unique in this regard, or even an unusually heavy offender...[/quote'] There are some worse than others but I would say HERO comes out in the upper league. HERO also has to deal with the fact that people come to it expecting it to be difficult and the acronyms provide an additional hurdle to overcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Re: Acronyms In fact' date=' I would wager that even if you tried to resort to the full name Offensive Combat Value, new players would very quickly be talking about their OCV.[/quote']I think this is the key point, honestly. For the most part (there are a few exceptions, but not many), I think acronyms in HERO are for phrases where acronyms (probably the same acronyms) would have arisen anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualplayer Posted March 26, 2010 Report Share Posted March 26, 2010 Re: Acronyms Personally I call OCV "awk vuh" for short. Doc's a minimalist and simplifier, guys. Whattaya expect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Holck Posted March 26, 2010 Report Share Posted March 26, 2010 Re: Acronyms I just like to explain OCV sometimes when I use it a sentence so non-gamers might still follow my reasoning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheva Posted March 26, 2010 Report Share Posted March 26, 2010 Re: Acronyms My beef is the acronym proliferation in HERO. You have a problem. You are a ZAP playing a game clearly designed for CARPs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 26, 2010 Report Share Posted March 26, 2010 Re: Acronyms I certainly see Doc's point in principle, but I can't help but shudder at the thought of what the already-crowded official Hero character sheets would look like if all the acronyms were spelled out in full. Those sheets are another element of the game often cited by newcomers as intimidating. I find it does help that the rulebooks include a handy glossary of game acronyms that players can refer to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted March 26, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2010 Re: Acronyms Yeah - well - to me those are character construction sheets. My character sheets have only those numbers necessary for gameplay and lots more narrative. CasualPlayer - you nailed it! Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted March 26, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2010 Re: Acronyms You have a problem. You are a ZAP playing a game clearly designed for CARPs. What? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheva Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Re: Acronyms Sorry, I forgot you are a ZAP, and therefore unlikely to know what a ZAP is. A ZAP is a Zero Acronymn Person, like you. A CARP is a Comprehensively Acronymn Relishing Person, like me. If you think Champions is bad for you, try reading anything about the military. The GIMAs [Gratuitious Irritating Military Acronymn] will drive you mad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Re: Acronyms Trying studing networks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted March 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Re: Acronyms Sorry, I forgot you are a ZAP, and therefore unlikely to know what a ZAP is. A ZAP is a Zero Acronymn Person, like you. A CARP is a Comprehensively Acronymn Relishing Person, like me. If you think Champions is bad for you, try reading anything about the military. The GIMAs [Gratuitious Irritating Military Acronymn] will drive you mad. I've been playing Champions for decades now - the acronyms are almost invisible to me - I am realising however that they are not invisible to new players - they add to the entry barrier for those players and so I was just pointing that out - a revelation for me in presenting the game to new people. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Re: Acronyms The most common uses for ZAP as an acronymn: ZAP Zone Alarm Pro (Zone Labs) ZAP Zinfandel Advocates & Producers (grapes, USA) ZAP Zero Air Pollution (Santa Rosa, California) ZAP Zero Aggression Principle (philosophy; libertarianism) ZAP Zero and Add Packed (IBM) ZAP Zeroes Aren’t Permitted (school program) ZAP Zero Accident Program ZAP Zeta-Chain-Associated Protein Kinase ZAP Zone Acquisition Process (F-15 aircraft system) ZAP Zero Auto Pollution ZAP Zooming Agility Pups ZAP Zero Administration Package ZAP Zone Axis Pattern ZAP Zone - Area - Province ZAP Zero Antiaircraft Potential ZAP ZSU-23-4/SA-9 Attack Package Where'd you get your definition? It's not common enough to be found in wikipedia or in a simple google search (granted I only checked the first page). CARP has over 20 uses, none of which happen to be the one you use. Whether you agree with him or not, he made a legitimate point. You throwing around obscure (made up?) acronyms, doesn't really make a point. Personally I think the acronyms are fine. I learned HERO by reading the book before I ever got to play a game and knew what most of them were after only one reading. I don't find OCV/DCV any more confusing than THAC0/AC. However, if you are customizing your character sheets anyway, then use what you feel is best, especially with new players. EDIT: I'm not finding GIMAs either. Sheva, are you just making these up as you go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escafarc Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Re: Acronyms This reminds me of when we use to teach noobies 1E AD&D. It wasn't the acronyms that confused them the most but the zillion uses of the term "Level" in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherSkip Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Re: Acronyms Okies so build a newbie sheet with training wheels and we'll show it to them and see how they run with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Re: Acronyms Acronyms are only useful in context. When learning a new system the context is still being built (or when learning anything new, rather) and the acronyms are indeed a barrier. Once the context is in place the Acronyms will, as Doc says, become largely invisible. And mostly useful for speeding up play and communication. The trick is to present the new stuff both with and with out acronyms initially. If you're learning on your own, this is difficult unless the book really wants to state "Offensive Combat Value (OCV)" over and over. When having a teacher then it becomes less of an issue as the student can ask someone when they forget the weird rows of letters. There's no easy solution as an acronyms primary function is (or should be) to remove clutter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheva Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Re: Acronyms The most common uses for ZAP as an acronymn: Where'd you get your definition? It's not common enough to be found in wikipedia or in a simple google search (granted I only checked the first page). CARP has over 20 uses, none of which happen to be the one you use. Whether you agree with him or not, he made a legitimate point. You throwing around obscure (made up?) acronyms, doesn't really make a point. EDIT: I'm not finding GIMAs either. Sheva, are you just making these up as you go? You are quite right, I made all 3 up. I was purely joking and wasn't trying to dump shit on anyone. Acronymns for people who do and don't like acronymns and irritating military acronymns. I would have thought it looked like a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Re: Acronyms I get your point' date=' but it would carry more weight (just IMO) if other games didn't do it all the time too. [/quote'] Doesn't this serve as a bar to the hobby as a whole rather than just Hero, though? If the goal is to introduce hero to veteran gamers I take your point. If its to make hero accessible to newbies, not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted March 27, 2010 Report Share Posted March 27, 2010 Re: Acronyms Doesn't this serve as a bar to the hobby as a whole rather than just Hero' date=' though? If the goal is to introduce hero to veteran gamers I take your point. If its to make hero accessible to newbies, not so much.[/quote'] I get the impression, actually, that Hero has given up on the idea of being an "entry level game" and I think that's unfortunate. Lucius Alexander Entry level palindromedary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.