Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

the current "stock" writeup has a plethora of 30 DC ranged attacks, has a 16 DC melee attack, and defenses that equate to a 150 AP setting (before his one-turn DR gets switched on, that is). He's not unhittable, but hurting him requires either a hefty number of dice(20+), or a very large number of 12-14 DC attacks. And the downside to that is he's knocking off roughly 1 hero per each of his 8 phases. Basically, it's a math equation--can you do enough damage, quickly enough, before his firepower overwhelms your side?

[RexMundi]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Pay Grond to do it. In Pie.

 

~Rex

[BlueCloud2k2]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Pay Grond to do it. In Pie.

 

~Rex

 

Ouch. I feel sorry for the campaign city in question.

[RexMundi]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

I think Grond could take Dr. D.

 

Especially for French Silk Pie.

 

~Rex

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Maybe if he grabs him after Destroyer inexplicably fails to stun him with his first attack. Otherwise I think it's a walkover for the old guy.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Grond is no match for Doctor Destroyer. And if he were, there'd be a problem. Doctor Destroyer is built on 2900 points. Valak the World Ravager is slightly closer, but if you want a brick who can match the Doctor, you probably need to go to Fracas (from Galactic Champions) who has a 40 Str advantage over the Doctor, as opposed to Grond's 10. Basically, for a man-to-man matchup, you're looking at Borealis under the aurora, or that Takofanes guy, who could turn the Destroyer into an ottoman with a wave of his hand.

(Kidding!)

[Badger]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

You know how Kirk beat the Kobayashi Maru?

 

Well, figure it out from there.

[dmjalund]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

You know how Kirk beat the Kobayashi Maru?

 

Well, figure it out from there.

you doctor the rules?

[RexMundi]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

I still think I could take Dr. Destroyer with Grond ........maybe have to put that to a test this weekend.

 

~Rex

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

I still think I could take Dr. Destroyer with Grond ........maybe have to put that to a test this weekend.

 

~Rex

Seems like a tall order. Doc has it all over him on Speed, Initiative, CV and defenses. Plus he can throw an obscenely powerful energy attack on his first phase that's likely to get an outright stun result. 3 blasts and it's all over.

[RexMundi]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Starting to smell a challenge.......Definitely going to test this, seriously I think Grond is just going to wade through the EB stuff, Grab, and then Goro Punch Dr. D to death......

 

~Rex

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Starting to smell a challenge.......Definitely going to test this, seriously I think Grond is just going to wade through the EB stuff, Grab, and then Goro Punch Dr. D to death......

 

~Rex

 

Not if we're working with the standard or TUB writeup. He doesn't have DRed, last I checked, and he doesn't have the ed+con to shrug off a 100+ Stun attack, which is exactly what would hit him.

[RexMundi]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

I'll post the results Got a Dr. D fan taker.....I plan to spank him to death with Grond Fu....heh.

 

~Rex

[casualplayer]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

In 4th ed. my group Shockwave did manage to drive Dr. D off and thwart his plans. The team had a jinx magician that could short out each of his powers, but only after he used them, which was stripping his arsenal. They had some nimble distractors to draw fire, giving the fragile tricksters a chance to work their magic and setting the powerhouse up for his explosive haymaker, which was IIRC an 18d6 explosion paired with a 22d6 move-thru/haymaker. It was perfect teamwork a matter of moments after the team martial artist one-shot Professor Muerte with a boot to the head, so their morale was high.

 

The 2nd time they met one of the team died. It was a radiation accident kind of death but, still, Dr. D snuffed him out like a candleflame.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Beat him with a club.

 

This is actually the exact way the "heroes" beat him in the very first game of Champions I ran, running the original Island of Dr. Destroyer for my brother and his friend. "Beast" hit him with his club, which was something like 6d6 or 8d6K with his STR thrown in, and in my newness to the game ignored the good Dr's 35 fully resistant PD and just rolled it straight into BODY...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

The problem with over the top, 2900 point characters is that they're not really useful in most games. Doc D takes Grond in half a turn. So much for the "Rampaging Engine of Destruction of the Champions Universe". Setting him so far above the other Supers makes him an interesting read, and a useless writeup.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

The problem with over the top' date=' 2900 point characters is that they're not really useful in most games. Doc D takes Grond in half a turn. So much for the "Rampaging Engine of Destruction of the Champions Universe". Setting him so far above the other Supers makes him an interesting read, and a useless writeup.[/quote']

 

I think there are some pretty capable guys on the two major NPC hero teams in the CU, who could at least do significant damage. But since most campaigns aren't going to have a "big crossover event involving 2-3 teams of 600+ point heroes fighting Dr. Destroyer", he's going to be nigh-untouchable...unless and until you get a PC team that's at, near, or over the 750/1000 point range(the latter is briefly mentioned in the latest version of the Champions book). But 1000 point heroes are the equivalent of 400 point heroes who have been played at least 120-300 sessions(depending on the rate xp are awarded). In a monthly game, that's basically equivalent to "you will never get there". In a biweekly game, it'll take 5 years or more, probably 10. In a weekly game, 3-6 years. Dr. Destroyer, then, is the guy your PCs can beat, if they play every week for the next 5-6 years, OR if they start out at 1000 points.

 

But, if somebody out there has done it against the 150 AP/30 DC-scaled version of Dr.D., that's what this thread is for, and I'm all ears(or eyes. whatever, I'm flexible.)

[Dr. Hercules]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

The Defender's have fought Dr. D several times, foiled his plans and gone toe to toe with him. Note we never actually ever knock him out or anything

but we do get him to intiate his escape plans (and by that time half the team is unconcious).

 

But if I remember the last time we fought, after going several turns of combat Fantastic Man actually knocked off half of Dr. D's helmut, showing his scarred visage underneath..(and FM might have been pushing, i don't remember).

 

The GM stated that FM had actual gotten body though on that one.

 

Keep in mind though that the Defender's Congregate game has been going on for a looong time and FM has been their since the begining.

Hell, Tomorrow Boy is close to breaking 500pts and he is way behind on Fantastic Man or Nighthawk for that matter.

[casualplayer]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Mostly to deal with Dr. Destroyer you need the archetype that appears in heaps of comics but gets short shrift in Champions, the Annoying Avoider or Jester. The punning acrobat who taunts the Overconfident, Arrogant bad guy into taking his shots at the most unlikely target just so he will shut up once and for all! Robin, Beast Boy/Changeling, Spider-Man, Impulse, Nightcrawler, many more before everything got so serious. The character that, even though you know his DCV is in the stratosphere, you just want to strangle and the baddie burns attacks on him.

 

Sometimes the Jester is setting up for his own attacks, like Spidey vs. Firelord, but most often it's for his hard-hitting teammates. Sometimes the character is more of a damage sponge than a DCV Beast, like Kitty Pryde and Captain America.

 

Everyone wants to be the homerun hitter in HERO but there are a lot of people on a successful team.

[Tigereye]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

One of our heroes in our old campaign took out a Doctor Destroyer type (based on almost as many points!) by means of a massive transform. He had metal-to-non-radioactive-metal transform, and turned the metal in DD-clone's Flight Power from whatever metallic alloy he used to rubidium. (The hero was the sort of sneaky type whose player's first question to the GM was often, "Does he have fillings in his teeth?")

 

The flight power spontaneously melted from the heat, then caught fire. The GM ruled that his flight power was not protected by his Power Defense as it was applied only to his armor. The resulting fire, crash and the sheer amount of firepower poured on DD-clone afterwards actually briefly knocked the guy out. Kind of put him back on his heels. The DD-clone was forced to use his teleport power (he had a permanent one, not just one rented from the equipment pool) to flee the battlefield as the heroes ganged up on him.

 

--Teamwork, teamwork, teamwork guys. There's no defense to it, unlike Find Weakness or Penetrating. Think Mighty Morphing (Morphine?) Power Rangers, folks. "The Power of Teamwork Overcomes All."

 

--My character also has Tactics to allow a one-time coordinated attack. (In the case of DD, I'd try to use it as soon as possible. There may not be another chance.)

 

--Area effect weapons also work best if your character has them. The only other option is to let him think he's succeeded, then move on. A cute trick is to give him a massive Images illusion that he has destroyed the heroes, then letting them defeat his nefarious scheme. Mental illusions would also work well, but it would have to be massive, and play into his psych lims. Fortunately, this wouldn't be hard.

[Squall]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Mostly to deal with Dr. Destroyer you need the archetype that appears in heaps of comics but gets short shrift in Champions, the Annoying Avoider or Jester. The punning acrobat who taunts the Overconfident, Arrogant bad guy into taking his shots at the most unlikely target just so he will shut up once and for all! Robin, Beast Boy/Changeling, Spider-Man, Impulse, Nightcrawler, many more before everything got so serious. The character that, even though you know his DCV is in the stratosphere, you just want to strangle and the baddie burns attacks on him.

 

Sometimes the Jester is setting up for his own attacks, like Spidey vs. Firelord, but most often it's for his hard-hitting teammates. Sometimes the character is more of a damage sponge than a DCV Beast, like Kitty Pryde and Captain America.

 

Everyone wants to be the homerun hitter in HERO but there are a lot of people on a successful team.

You probably don't see them on many teams because, against anyone with an AOE to throw down, DCV doesn't matter very much at all. Robin and Spidey can quip all they want -- heck, they could even buy a limited version of Mind Control based on successful social rolls, only to make people attack them -- but there really isn't much they can do when Dr. D tosses around an Explosion or anything else that'll target a DCV 3 Hex and still let him sling a billion damage dice at them.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

You probably don't see them on many teams because' date=' against anyone with an AOE to throw down, DCV doesn't matter very much at all. Robin and Spidey can quip all they want -- heck, they could even buy a limited version of Mind Control based on successful social rolls, only to make people attack them -- but there really isn't much they can [i']do[/i] when Dr. D tosses around an Explosion or anything else that'll target a DCV 3 Hex and still let him sling a billion damage dice at them.

 

Yep. Plus Dr. D can technically already generate an 18 OCV with a ranged attack, if he so desires. In 5th you'd need probably a 35 DEX character with a martial dodge and a few levels in order to just have a chance of not getting hit. And once he tries once or twice, the AoE comes out, and it's game over. Or he spreads that D-beam by 5 to get a +5 to hit...

[casualplayer]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Yep. Plus Dr. D can technically already generate an 18 OCV with a ranged attack' date=' if he so desires. In 5th you'd need probably a [b']35 DEX character with a martial dodge and a few levels[/b] in order to just have a chance of not getting hit. And once he tries once or twice, the AoE comes out, and it's game over. Or he spreads that D-beam by 5 to get a +5 to hit...

Bold mine.

 

If that doesn't sound like Spidey or Robin to you, I don't know what is. (In Robin's case, lower raw DEX higher DCV Levels Based on Acrobatics Roll but still) Plus all of these characters have an insane Dive for Cover. Part of the tactic is to get Dr. D to go full OCV so that his DCV is as low as possible, setting up for the powerhouse. Part of the tactic is also making it look like the attack just barely missed, perhaps with Acting, instead of "nyah nyah can't touch this" to keep the person focused and furious at you, not making optimal offensive and targeting decisions.

 

If you run Dr. Destroyer as dispassionately selecting from his arsenal and resources, then he wins. Then again if you ignore his arrogance and need to demonstrate his superiority, then he has already conquered Khazakhstan, cosied up to China or Russia to have a veto buddy on the Security Counsel and will have the rest of the world brought to heel in short order.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

Bold mine.

 

If that doesn't sound like Spidey or Robin to you, I don't know what is. (In Robin's case, lower raw DEX higher DCV Levels Based on Acrobatics Roll but still) Plus all of these characters have an insane Dive for Cover. Part of the tactic is to get Dr. D to go full OCV so that his DCV is as low as possible, setting up for the powerhouse. Part of the tactic is also making it look like the attack just barely missed, perhaps with Acting, instead of "nyah nyah can't touch this" to keep the person focused and furious at you, not making optimal offensive and targeting decisions.

 

If you run Dr. Destroyer as dispassionately selecting from his arsenal and resources, then he wins. Then again if you ignore his arrogance and need to demonstrate his superiority, then he has already conquered Khazakhstan, cosied up to China or Russia to have a veto buddy on the Security Counsel and will have the rest of the world brought to heel in short order.

 

Destroyer doesn't use his levels for DCV, regardless. And he would take out the Spidey-equivalent in no more than 3 phases, regardless, because he could just spread his blast, which would still be in keeping with his arrogance, or with an 18 OCV, one of those first 3 shots is going to hit. And the powerhouse had better be hitting for a LOT of dice, because Destroyer's defenses are essentially scaled equivalent to a 30 DC campaign.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Beating Dr. Destroyer...how do (or did) you do it?

 

I think there are some pretty capable guys on the two major NPC hero teams in the CU, who could at least do significant damage. But since most campaigns aren't going to have a "big crossover event involving 2-3 teams of 600+ point heroes fighting Dr. Destroyer", he's going to be nigh-untouchable...unless and until you get a PC team that's at, near, or over the 750/1000 point range(the latter is briefly mentioned in the latest version of the Champions book). But 1000 point heroes are the equivalent of 400 point heroes who have been played at least 120-300 sessions(depending on the rate xp are awarded). In a monthly game, that's basically equivalent to "you will never get there". In a biweekly game, it'll take 5 years or more, probably 10. In a weekly game, 3-6 years. Dr. Destroyer, then, is the guy your PCs can beat, if they play every week for the next 5-6 years, OR if they start out at 1000 points.

 

But, if somebody out there has done it against the 150 AP/30 DC-scaled version of Dr.D., that's what this thread is for, and I'm all ears(or eyes. whatever, I'm flexible.)

 

The problem there is that, even if the players are at that level, what do you do with the rest of the games? How many characters are there for all those games where the PC's are half way between starting level and Dr. D? He presupposes a Supers game where experience equates to more damage and more defenses, which is really not overly consistent with the source material. Superman isn't stronger now than when he started out. Spiderman didn't become bulletproof over time.

 

If that doesn't sound like Spidey or Robin to you' date=' I don't know what is. (In Robin's case, lower raw DEX higher DCV Levels Based on Acrobatics Roll but still) Plus all of these characters have an insane Dive for Cover. Part of the tactic is to get Dr. D to go full OCV so that his DCV is as low as possible, setting up for the powerhouse. Part of the tactic is also making it look like the attack just barely missed, perhaps with Acting, instead of "nyah nyah can't touch this" to keep the person focused and furious at you, [b']not making optimal offensive and targeting decisions[/b].

 

If you run Dr. Destroyer as dispassionately selecting from his arsenal and resources, then he wins. Then again if you ignore his arrogance and need to demonstrate his superiority, then he has already conquered Khazakhstan, cosied up to China or Russia to have a veto buddy on the Security Counsel and will have the rest of the world brought to heel in short order.

 

Agreed. Playing pieces select the best tactics objectively and dispassionately. Characters, especially well played characters, make suboptimal choices consistent with their biases and personalities. That's the difference between a tactical/war game and a role playing game.

 

This falls more to the GM than the players. The GM has unlimited points - he can easily design defeat for the PC's. I'm always amazed at gamers who post things in the vein of "My players don't follow the genre bits" and can't see that this is because, in their games, following those bits is "rewarded" with drawbacks, defeat and humiliation. Anyway, quite a bit off topic.

 

Destroyer doesn't use his levels for DCV' date=' regardless. And he would take out the Spidey-equivalent in no more than 3 phases, regardless, because he could just spread his blast, which would still be in keeping with his arrogance, or with an 18 OCV, one of those first 3 shots is going to hit. And the powerhouse had better be hitting for a LOT of dice, because Destroyer's defenses are essentially scaled equivalent to a 30 DC campaign.[/quote']

 

This assumes a 500 point Spidey and a 2,900 point Dr. D, which is part of the problem. And, if the GM runs his game so the Artful Dodger can never be successful because he is constantly taken out by opponents with high OCV, AoE, Spread blasts, or what have you, then guess what? His campaign will be down one archetype, because no one wants to play the character that always gets taken out (or only gets to show off his powers in scenarioes where there's not much challenge anyway).